Somebody explain property tax and how it is American.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by Helious

 

Dear Helious,

I don't intend to argue with you about this. I have told you where you can find the information, how you feel about taxes is up to you. Which services you wish for your community is up to you, I really don't care. Let your area have less police, fire and public works, those all come from local taxes and not income tax. I was just saying where you could find where your taxes go. Have a great weekend. Out.

I very much appreciate your input and contribution to the thread, don't get me wrong. Just because I do not agree with the things you have said does not mean I did not hear what you said and don't appreciate or understand your argument.

My area as much as many areas in the United States could use less police, perhaps I wouldn't be stopped every Friday and Saturday on my way home from work for a "mandatory" seat belt inspection because they could no longer afford it, that would be great because I would feel like I actually had some of my Constitutional freedoms again.

Maybe the fire department should take a break, seems they are kind of lazy these days anyway as I have just read a few stories where they sat and watched houses burned because the people that owned them neglected to pay a 75 dollar insurances fee for unincorporated townships.

Lastly, I don't need to look up where my taxes go, very sadly, I already know. They go to unneeded and unwanted government programs to tighten the boot on the American citizens face. They go exactly the opposite place we want and need them to go and they have been for a while now........

If I'm paying street light tax, I'm betting, I'm paying for your' kids education.

I have NO KIDS!

Why, should I, have too pay a school tax?

My sister has a kid. Let her pay the school tax.

Only, if goes towards my tuition, then I agree to pay it.

And, why should I, have to pay a street lamp??

I have my own. Literally. When, I say my own.

It's mine own street lamp and it's solar powered.

If it's that much trouble... Then shut it off.

I'm all for saving energy.

Originally posted by Manhater
If I'm paying street light tax, I'm betting, I'm paying for your' kids education.

I have NO KIDS!

Why, should I, have too pay a school tax?

My sister has a kid. Let her pay the school tax.

Only, if goes towards my tuition, then I agree to pay it.

And, why should I, have to pay a street lamp??

I have my own. Literally. When, I say my own.

It's mine own street lamp and it's solar powered.

If it's that much trouble... Then shut it off.

I'm all for saving energy.

edit on 10-12-2011 by Manhater because: (no reason given)

I want to respond and understand what your saying but I'm not familiar with haiku........... Sentences, paragraphs? I'm definitely not the speech police but I just can understand if your saying something or writing poetry.

If you're "wealthy" enough to own land, you're an ideal target to extort money from.

With so much to lose, and such juicy collateral, it's an almost guaranteed income stream.

Services could be paid for any number of ways, and maybe more fairly through a broader tax program, depends on your perspective I guess.

Government ran out of legitimate ways to generate revenue long ago, and has since manufactured countless unfair taxes, fines etc. The Mafia offers more fairness, they at least let you keep enough to bleed you another day.

reply to post by Helious


If you own any property in my state. You will have to pay for kids to go to a secondary school. Not college. And, you will also have to pay for the street lamp that sits across from your house. Even, if it's not on your property.

Clear enough for what to expect on property taxes?

But, they will be sly enough to put it on your electric bill, hoping you never learned to read the bill.

You had no kids whatsoever going to a secondary school, so why pay for it?

You have your own street lamp, that is suffice, that lights pretty much everything, why should I pay for another one? Shuts off during the day, turns on at night?

reply to post by Helious


Peace.

Originally posted by Paschar0
If you're "wealthy" enough to own land, you're an ideal target to extort money from.

With so much to lose, and such juicy collateral, it's an almost guaranteed income stream.

Services could be paid for any number of ways, and maybe more fairly through a broader tax program, depends on your perspective I guess.

Government ran out of legitimate ways to generate revenue long ago, and has since manufactured countless unfair taxes, fines etc. The Mafia offers more fairness, they at least let you keep enough to bleed you another day.

Hmmmm, seems you have hit the nail on the head my friend.

reply to post by Manhater


If they want the money for renovations then they should enact a budget to pay for things as the money is coming in. Per say.... We have so many people with mortgages in the next three years, we need to plan for upgrades to pan out with those payments..... We have X amount of people just buying houses, this is what we need to budget from the new home owners through the life of there 30 year mortgage.

When your done paying the bank, you need to be done paying. There are plenty of new home buyers. It's not that they need your money, it very, very, very, simply is........................... They wan't it.

reply to post by Manhater

If you own a home...YOU MUST PAY PROPERTY TAX. It goes to the county you live in. Default on that and after 2-2/12 years of delinquency...they foreclose on you for back taxes owed the county the property sits on. You cant get out of it, and it has nothing to do with loans.

Rent a home? Then the landlord has to pay the property tax. If he doesnt? Then YOU can get thrown out of YOUR rental property because the property tax on HIS property YOU rent can be foreclosed for back taxes...and YOU are out on the street.

Property Tax

Property tax is one of the oldest forms of taxation.

It goes back to when the king (or the state) "owned" all land, and thus all his subjects were seen as tenants who needed to pay a fee (rent) to the king. The king, in turn, maintained a security force to protect the borders from invaders.

Property taxes were in wide use in the American colonies before independence and were widely used by various governments in the United States.

They gradually fell out of favor for various reasons. But the fact remains that if you own or control a piece of land (only one form of "property") then you expect the government to assist you to protect your land from invasion, from criminal acts, and from fire. You also expect the government, or a utility district, to provide roads, electricity, water, sewer and drainage systems for your land (if you are in an urban area). If the government is going to do this for the land owner, then it makes sense that the land owner should help pay for the service. (At least I think it does.)

So property taxes remained popular at the local level, even with the problems involved in implementing them fairly.

The states went more and more to sales taxes, which is a relatively easier and less expensive system to administer. I think the Federal government should have to rely on state revenues - and tariffs if it wants to go there - for its own survival. Unfortunately, the US federal government followed the welfare state model developed in Europe and started reaching all the way down to individual citizens to collect its revenues. This is a total abuse of Federal powers, and I have no idea why it was condoned. It was the real beginning of the police state in America.

There are some pretty good arguments to have a land tax. Land is a peculiar kind of property, in that it represents a fixed space that someone can take control of. If the government is going to continue to supply all the services it provides to land owners, then it makes sense that those owners should pay the government something to do that. A good argument can be made that such a tax should be based on the market value, or rental value, of that land (NOT on the improvements on it - only the land). It is the services supplied by the government that give that land value, so the government should get its cut.

Beyond that, the question of taxation boils down to how big and invasive we think government should be. Income tax is crazy because it's much too invasive. Sales tax is my next choice, but I think the Federal government should be forced to live off a percentage from the states and should have no right whatsoever to tax individual citizens.

First thing... if you are not happy with the tax rate where you live... you can either run for local office or you can move. And I am being serious. If you get elected, and there might be a better chance than you think, then you can have direct input into the budgets and even propose tax cuts. Or you could move to somewhere where they have no tax or low property taxes... and enjoy dirt roads, 30 minute waits for emergency services, little industry and jobs because there is no infrastructure... I live in a place like that and I love it... but it is not for everyone.

The property tax I pay helps plow the roads when it snows... and I pay about 600 dollars a year for my farm property... but I don't have to pay a local to plow my roads at a rate of 100 dollars an hour for his equipment to plow 4 miles of road to get to the main road... nor do I have to pay a security force to respond to a break in or patrol... again which would cost more than the tax... also, the schools are pretty good and my daughter graduated from them and is graduating with honors from a state university...so no, I don't like taxes...on the other hand I do appreciate the services, so I pay for them.

If over taxation and regulation are your gripes, i suggest moving...doing some research... some states have no property tax...in Alaska, the state actually pays you from taxes on oil revenues.... look around. If you live in NY or California... God help you.

reply to post by Helious


Let's get one thing st8. I'm totally done paying any bank. I owe nada. So, Why am I suppose to help you move in? I don't know you from jack Adam deary.

If we want services, then we should have to pay. No arguments there... In our borough, they have said to us in the past, "hey we need more money, you have a choice, tax increase or less snow removal". And we all say, raise em! We have the best snow removal in the city. And it is a wonderful feeling to reach our borough and see "black top" while days later other boroughs are still a mess. Most of our borough taxes are income generated. While a small part is still property.

But, no part of any taxes should be property. All local taxes should be income generated. As a child, I can remember seeing an elderly woman and her belongings thrown out on her lawn. She lived there her entire adult life, but could no longer afford the taxes after retirement. I knew this was wrong back then, so why doesn't the government fix this?

Also property tax assessments cost money to do. Maintaining photos and descriptions of every house. And determining values... Folks arguing over assessed values etc... Which brings up another bad point about the unfairness of property taxes. Not all houses are assessed fairly. Even an income tax isn't optimal though. Think about it, that is like going to a store and paying more for your groceries since you make more money. It just doesn't make sense.

So, I have an even better idea than local income taxes. Why should one person be required to pay any more than the next to enjoy the same services? I think taxes on a local level should be more of a per person or per address "service fee". With reductions or exclusions for only those that can't afford to pay at the time. Perhaps by filling out papers for an exemption each year. In a sense, it is still a tax, and it works out the same in the end, but this is a more modern and simpler way of doing things. Plus it is no ones buisness what you make unless you apply for a reduction or exemption.

Property taxes are archaic.

We pay property taxes because we don't actually own anything. The government owns it all, and that is our renters' fee.

Originally posted by demented
reply to post by Helious

 

You live in The United States of America.

Do I need to explain it to you?

You can post thisridiculous message.

You can water your lawn.

You can go on vacation.

You need to show some respect.

edit on 10-12-2011 by demented because: (no reason given)

Are you serious with those statements or mentally impaired. Are you seriously going to try and abuse an intelligent conversation with those statements?

If your intent was to make serious comments; you sir, are potentially mentally deficient in ways that you will never perceive.

In Australia it's called council rates but it's the same thing. It's supposed to go toward Infostructure and the weekly rubbish removal and stuff like that but the rates have been climbing, at least where I live, and people aren't happy.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
The thought process behind the property tax is fairly tightly focused actually and it's to support local municipal services and/or schools (the formulas vary from area to area).

That's a cute one.

So explain a rural town with a population of 3,000, no school, no police department, no city water or sewage, one town road, paying the highest mil rate in the state.

Property taxes are a scam. An absolute scam. All that BS about services is completely bunk.

You cant tell me my ass is being reamed month after month to educate kids when there is no school or to provide fire protection when there is no fire department or to pay for cops when their are no cops.

I personally like the next town over with a population of 4,000 and a miserable failing school with the highest dropout rate in the state sucking up 18,000,000 every year. Who the hell are they educating at that cost? There arent that many kids in the county! And why cant they seem to graduate any of the kids they do have?

And we stand up and look around and say "something isnt right here" and everytime taxes come up the majority are still so god damned stupid they by into the "think of the children" nonsense when THERE ARENT EVEN ANY CHILDREN TO THINK ABOUT!!!!

Property taxes are the single most evil thing in this world. Pay your extortion or they take your home and kick you out on the street.

The public cries "INJUSTICE" from the rooftops when the bank gives an old lady the boot but when the government drags her to the curb by her blue hair the public shouts "DEADBEAT!" and throws rotten fruit at her laying the street.

Originally posted by steveknows
In Australia it's called council rates but it's the same thing. It's supposed to go toward Infostructure and the weekly rubbish removal and stuff like that but the rates have been climbing, at least where I live, and people aren't happy.

You could pay a guy to remove your rubbish and mow your nature strip for less than the cost of the rates. Councils are the mafia.

Originally posted by Helious
Isn't that where state lottery revenue goes too as well? Our non-college schools? As well as a host of other taxes, fees and penalties to "schools"? I have that in parenthesis because they are less schools these days and more like training camps.

OK, First off...

Not every State can pay for it all with only "Lottery Proceeds" [Which having a State Lottery has helped offset the costs.

Secondly

"less schools these days and more like training camps"

Are you going to propose a solution or just Nit pick and point out your perceived flaws with the system?

County services? You mean like enlisting thousands of sheriffs to man the metal detectors and courtrooms jammed to the hilt of people who are herded in like sheep to answer for ridiculous crimes manufactured for the sole reason to generate revenue for the county?

Are you proposing MOB rule with no legal or justice system at all?
I agree there are some laws and regulations that should be done away with. Hopefully you'll do the right about thing as a Citizen and get a movement going [Instead of Nit picking online] and become a Civic activist so we can get some of the outdated and unnecessary laws changed and or amended.

You speak as if it matters, it does not. Your taxes will not be spent the way you wan't them to be, nor will the be spent the way the MAJORITY of Americans wish them to be and as a direct result of these facts,

And YOU speak for the Majority of us 310,000,000 Americans?

I don't concern myself with the logistics...

Nor concern yourself with reality and facts.

because even though I know exactly what they are it won't change how my taxes or anyone elses are spent and that brings me to the point of a rogue government, yet again.

So...

You admit you have an agenda.
What solutions are you providing us for these issues?

I know where the money is supposed to go, but at any level, local, regional, state wide or federal, the money just doesn't seem to end up there..... Does it?

Meanwhile reality comes crashing in.

There are Firemen and Police just a phone call away if you ever needed them. The Roads and city parks [If not occupied and being ruined with Human Fecal matter by protesters] are for your enjoyment and pleasure.

reply to post by Helious



Coming from a Chicagoan....

One must recall that the entire city of Chicago burnt completely down in 1871 because the Fire Fighters were overwhelmed and out manned and Ill Equipped.

And Many people died and of course were homeless afterwards.

So part of the incorporation of property taxes amongst land owners was to aid in creating and financing a functioning Fire Dept to prevent this from reoccurring.

the money has to come from somewhere...

Property taxes also pay for your streets
streetlights
schools
School Teachers
Life Guards
snow removal salt and sand
garbage removal
Police and
Fire Depts.

The response of your local govt. has much to do with the corrupt nature of big cities and bureaucrats which is an entirely different other problem.

For we have very little accountability in Govt. overall....and once they're in ....they're IN and they know it.

But when paying my Property Taxes I often think of ...If my house ever caught fire I'd hate having to watch it burn to the ground simply because we no longer had a fire dept.

Or because there wasn't a fire station close enough or that the nearest fire station was too far away from my home to put out the fire in time.

As much as we all hate taxes the property tax at least does provide services that if were not provided you'd most likely have to do yourself....or pay someone else to do.

I don't necessarily own a Fire Truck nor do I care to "Fight" Fires...either.
But God Bless those that do.

Now the Income tax is entirely different simply due to the fact that it goes to a corporation called the US Govt. and in fact was purposely made to tax corporations foreign profits made overseas and not American's labor.

That's also Another topic and for another day.

Peace