911 Truth: Competing Theories = Disinfo

So, let's say hypothetically speaking, that there is plenty of truth to the 911 Truth Movement - that our own government was partially or fully involved in the attacks, or that they were "a okay" with the attacks happening and knew about them beforehand... and then let's say the anti-sheaple caught on to this. What would a good lot of disinfo agents do?

They'd throw out competing conspiracy theories so that the 911 Truthers would never get anywhere! And of course many of the competing stories would be ridiculous or absurd and would convince people new to the topic to disown the Truth Movement entirely. You'd also see facts sprinkled into some of the more outlandish theories - the better to confuse you with, my dear!

Anyone else guess this might be going on? I see it running rampant here on ATS... on one hand, you're like if the 911 Truth Movement is real, how are we allowed to debate it so openly on a forum like this? On the other hand, you'd think we'll we're getting nowhere, because we keep arguing about the different theories.

Not sure what conclusion to make of this... just that let's keep picking this thing apart and working together, but be wary of tactics like this that may be afoot.

reply to post by ConspiracyTruth


I agree, it would be an effective tactic. Throwing theories out there like "space lasers" and "holographic planes" does a good job of discrediting the whole basic premise that terrible people were behind the attacks in order to further an agenda.

Even if the entire OS was publicly admitted to be fake:
And, the entire administration at that time were arrested.
And, the top staff of all the 3-letter organizations were arrested.
And, they were all found guilty of murder, conspiracy, and treason by the federal courts.
And, they were all executed by firing squad in Times Square.

There would still NEVER be any common agreement about the events of 911 on any site with an open membership. Instead of "Bush and Co did it", it would change to the NWO and Illuminati silenced them to protect their agenda, the Bankers did it to hide stealing trillions, or something else like that.

Anytime that belief and faith are used to interpret facts, opposite sides will be taken. Some will abandon their side if presented with sufficient data to the contrary, others never will, no matter what.

The OS of the Kennedy assassination is still doubted and debated to this day, 911 will be no different now or in the future.

I agree, except: everybody has a "conspiracy theory of preference"... so which one would you label meritless and which ones would be deemed worthy of follow-up?

Creep Cass Sunstein who proposed taxing and/or illegalizing "conspiracy theories", spoke of "epistemology", and he was, in fact, correct. Epistemology, the journalistic, scientific and historiographical method ought to be the guiding beacons in pursuit of 9/11 truth.

In science, controversy is settled through the publication of peer reviewed papers in reputable journals, however; how would one go about getting a paper published at odds with scientific consensus?

In any case, the level of rigor applied to theories proposed needs to be elevated, and to explain the intricacies of this requires a thick, elaborate book-sized treatise. The advent of the internet enables everybody to do homegrown research; what lacks is proper, agreed upon research standards in the 9/11 truth community.

I'm sorry to say not even Dr. David Ray Griffin, with his academic background which has immersed him in the philosophy of science, due to the worldwide theological debate between theologians and atheists about the existence of God, is up to the task.

No historical event has seen such a treacherous morass of dots, which seem very inviting to connect, yet eventually lead one up the garden path. Can I exclude the possibility of deliberate confusion on the part of the United States government? No I can't. Especially not in the case of the Pentagon attack.

Quoting Bill Clinton on the subject of Birthers:

Bianna Golodgrya (narrating)
And while president Obama faces a showdown with Republicans, should he also take on those who question where he was born?

Bianna Golodgrya
Donald Trump even comes out questioning now. I mean do you think at this point the president should just say: "You know what, I'm sick of taking the high road", and just either fight back or handle this once and for all?

Bill Clinton
I think he will... fight back, but I think that the ... the ... one of the elemental rules of combat, is: you don't want to get in your opponent's way if he's shooting himself in the foot.

Source

Heed his words. Misguided conspiracy theories, as Bill Clinton admits, are politically opportune.

Always check your sources. Always attempt to falsify your own theories, rather than focusing on verification only, which inevitably leads to confirmation bias.

Take Osama Bin Laden. Was his assassination elaborately faked? Or are conspiracy theories regarding this assassination regarded as politically opportune so as to divert our attention from the fact that Osama Bin Laden was never intended to be captured, but that it was determined he should "get caught in the crossfire" so as to avoid the problem of a lengthy military trial which would allow Bin Laden a political platform?

Why did Obama postpone the release of his long form birth certificate? Did he see birther antics as a convenient bear trap for his political rivals, given Clinton's comments, whose wife serves in Obama's cabinet? Does the withholding of pictures of Osama Bin Laden's corpse yield similar advantages, alongside the obvious cautionary reluctance to gloat over his death in the face of possible indignant reactions in the Islamic world? Think about it.

Part and parcel of CIA tactics is the deliberate encouragement of destructive paranoia:

What follows is a quote from a book by Duane R. Clarridge, "A Spy for All Seasons: My Life in the CIA", page 336.

Seeing his financial empire under attack and listening to reports of
CIA efforts to recruit his cadres, Abu Nidal was aware for the first time of
a concerted offensive against him - we were coming after him and his
people. He, like many in his line of work, was paranoid. The CTC fueled
his hysteria over plots against him - feeding fear to a paranoid is some-
thing we know how to do. Not surprisingly, Abu Nidal panicked. Those
who reported having been approached by us were not rewarded for their
loyalty, because Abu Nidal never quite believed that anyone in his group
had turned us down. Their loyalty was suspect thereafter, and the pun-
ishment for disloyalty was torture and death.

By 1987, a fearful Abu Nidal had turned his terror campaign inward.
The ANO was starting to drown in the blood of its disciples. A simple
allegation was sufficient; usually there was no investigation. Accused fol-
lowers were tortured to confess, then executed on the basis of that con-
fession. After the effective ANO apparatus in southern Lebanon fell
under suspicion, over three hundred hard-core operatives were mur-
dered on Abu Nidal's order. On a single night in November of 1987,
approximately 170 were tied up and blindfolded, machine-gunned, and
pushed into a trench prepared for the occasion. Another 160 or so were
killed in Libya shortly thereafter. Distrust reached high into the polit-
buro ruling the ANO. Even his closest surviving lieutenants began to
believe that Abu Nidal was insane. Abu Nidal's paranoia, fed by our cru-
sade against him, caused him to destroy his organization.

Years later in London, I was reminiscing over pink gins in our club, the
Oriental, with a foreign-intelligence colleague, a great bear of a man and
dear friend. We agreed that we had succeeded in beating Abu Nidal in a
way we had never anticipated, that the techniques of publicity and other
actions to stimulate paranoia had succeeded beyond our wildest hopes.

The CIA will also use such tactics against non-violent activist groups such as the anti-war movement and the 9/11 truth movement. Personally, I believe the boastful, public release of Sunstein's paper, "Conspiracy Theories" achieves just that: paranoia baiting, the Achilles Heel of conspiracy researchers. Whether or not this is intentional, I don't know. The effects of activists and researchers labeling each other "Sunstein infiltrators" are, however, devastating.

No disinfo is needed. The folks who like conspiracy theories will remain a group of individuals that disagree on details. A message so diffuse will never go anywhere. Others, with more radical and often ridiculous theories will paint all as nut jobs and marginalize everyone. Interestingly, most never considered that, if there were an actual plot, the way it would be done would be to instigate the Jihadists and turn them loose if there is even a rationale for that.
The some-guys-for-truth websites all focus on non-issues like thermite, invisible missiles, fly overs, bombs, and other such silliness that no plotter would ever complicate a plan with. They also believe that the all powerful forces that controlled the attacks can't police the internet and that they will find evidence posted somewhere that will crack the case.

Originally posted by pteridine
No disinfo is needed. The folks who like conspiracy theories will remain a group of individuals that disagree on details. A message so diffuse will never go anywhere. Others, with more radical and often ridiculous theories will paint all as nut jobs and marginalize everyone. Interestingly, most never considered that, if there were an actual plot, the way it would be done would be to instigate the Jihadists and turn them loose if there is even a rationale for that.
The some-guys-for-truth websites all focus on non-issues like thermite, invisible missiles, fly overs, bombs, and other such silliness that no plotter would ever complicate a plan with. They also believe that the all powerful forces that controlled the attacks can't police the internet and that they will find evidence posted somewhere that will crack the case.

I understand your sentiments, seeing as rational thinkers have been forced to deal with a constellation of crackpot conspiracy clowns for ten years, however, likewise, the 9/11 families have had to deal with a ridiculous cover-up for years since the publication of the 9/11 Commission Report as well.

I believe Al Qaeda planned and executed 9/11, and I believe they may have been helped with intent to bring their attack plans to completion. Since I assume you've been inundated with poorly supported conspiracy crap for years, and since I also assume you are a hardcore skeptic, I don't assume you'll be open to anything pointing to any form of concerted action on the part of the United States government in any way.

So be it. Like I said, I sympathize with your skeptical position. Despite my own jaded view of conspiracy research, however, I haven't closed the curtains, packed up my things, and decided horrendous crimes, legally defined by the term "conspiracy" are beyond fathomable. I will however, be extremely skeptical of research claiming discovery of a conspiracy, unless such research overcomes certain critical barriers I've erected to epistemologically separate the wheat from the chaff.

The first obstacle, I'll admit, is scientific possibility, as distinguished from the common sense "plausibility" test. Fail that, claim rejected.

Lest I forget: I've seen equally pathetic and miserable attempts to desperately "refute" conspiracy theories for the sake of national pride. Condemnation without investigation, or.. with poorly executed investigation and fallacious logic, is the height of ignorance. It's socially acceptable to theorize about Alexander Litvinenko having been murdered by Vladimir Putin, quite simply because national pride is out of the way, in fact, national pride gleefully helps the mainstream media conspiracy chatterbox along, so long as it demonizes the common enemy.

Case in point: Glenn Beck's crackpot machinations about a socialist take-over of America, widely cherished by many of the the same loudmouth cretins who demonize the 9/11 Truth Movement.

Originally posted by ConspiracyTruth
They'd throw out competing conspiracy theories so that the 911 Truthers would never get anywhere!

Anyone else guess this might be going on? I see it running rampant here on ATS... on one hand, you're like if the 911 Truth Movement is real, how are we allowed to debate it so openly on a forum like this? On the other hand, you'd think we'll we're getting nowhere, because we keep arguing about the different theories.

The Laws of Physics are incapable of giving a damn about any Conspiracy Theory.

That is why it is so ridiculous to not have the simple but relevant data on the building. If an airliner could make the towers collapse accurate data would help explain it. If it is impossible for planes to cause the buildings to collapse then accurate data should help explain that. So it only makes sense for the data to be disappeared if collapse could not occur. So why doesn't most of the Truth Movement emphasize and demand it?

Absurd behavior from the nation that put men on the Moon.

psik

The best place to hide a tree is in the forest. I suspect that for most of what are considered conspiracy theories the truth is hidden in plain sight, but hidden behind variations, the weird, the wonderful, outright lies, obfuscations, and so on. The creation of a the conspiracy theory industry which is ridden for all it is worth by the charlatans, those charged with hiding the truth, and those desperately trying to make their voices heard from amid the tumult.

I would suggest the answers to all the great conspiracy theories are in the public domain, but nobody possesses the tools to sift the wheat from the chaff.

Our governments, corporations, and those of ill-intent are too well organised, with too much to lose, and too much invested in their conspiracies to ever let the truth be known. They are too scared of us now, too isolated from our reality, and maybe there are things we are better not knowing, that we will ever be made aware of the truth behind the great conspiracies.

reply to post by Rob37n


I don't know how to give an "applause" (seen that forum feature around somewhere), but your beautifully worded comment just now certainly deserves one. Who could say it any better? You're the same guy who said cats go "voom" in that Korean tower penthouse if picked up by the wind right? Heh... made me a chuckle a bit.

Anyways, right on the money. Literally. The conspiracy theory industry, we discuss that a lot at my home base forum... it's a problem. I'm sure we all know some of the industry bigwigs and authors we're talking about here, chilling at the beach house in their bathrobe & slippers, munching a cracker gazing at the tequila sunrise... with your donations, t-shirts, subscriptions, DVD and book revenues.

reply to post by ConspiracyTruth


As I have said before, I truly believe that there was "no one reason" for the tower collapse and the attacks. The attacks were obviously a mutlipronged approach and this was done on purpose! If you cannot determine why the towers fell you are in trouble in finding out what happened. Those scientists whom have determined what they believe happened need to come together and put all thier evidence together and put this forward as the final proof.

The attacks that took place were:
Thermite based
Planes or large Drones
Explosives
Hutchison effect based molecular dissasociation weapons
Etc...

If the attacks were only the result of a single attack then they would not be able to even consider trying to covering it up becuase it would be too difficult.

Its time to stop squabbling about who is right or wrong, for they are all correct. Its time to focus on those who benefitted from the attacks.

Nice convo, however a tips for banding together to get the story straight so we can appropriately react to it:

1) Learn from history. Look back at now proven conspiracies and take notes on the tactics and strategies we know the government/military use. Instead of always theorizing about what they could be capable of.
2) Fact find - but not in a confined, self-selecting way. Find facts outside the debate, and from those outside the debate. Where there's smoke, there's fire indeed!
3) Be okay with not getting the WHOLE story, just stick to what there's good, solid evidence.

Of course if forums like these were more organized, in the sense that every piece of evidence shared about a conspiracy was pinned at the top of a thread, and there were no duplicate threads, etc, we'd get a lot farther. There just has to be more organization, more team work, we can all be Internet detectives without getting too attached to our own conclusions - I think that's possible. I don't think all the loonier 911 conspirators are regular folks, I think there's PLENTY of disinfo going on.

Originally posted by ConspiracyTruth
Nice convo, however a tips for banding together to get the story straight so we can appropriately react to it:

1) Learn from history. Look back at now proven conspiracies and take notes on the tactics and strategies we know the government/military use. Instead of always theorizing about what they could be capable of.
2) Fact find - but not in a confined, self-selecting way. Find facts outside the debate, and from those outside the debate. Where there's smoke, there's fire indeed!
3) Be okay with not getting the WHOLE story, just stick to what there's good, solid evidence.

Of course if forums like these were more organized, in the sense that every piece of evidence shared about a conspiracy was pinned at the top of a thread, and there were no duplicate threads, etc, we'd get a lot farther. There just has to be more organization, more team work, we can all be Internet detectives without getting too attached to our own conclusions - I think that's possible. I don't think all the loonier 911 conspirators are regular folks, I think there's PLENTY of disinfo going on.

There is little hope of an organized effort. The Don Quixote's of trutherdom are all going off in all directions at once. Many are so vested, financially or egotistically, with their own pet theories that they will always provide enough background noise to prevent any concerted efforts from taking hold. The thing that I notice is that all the theories involve tortuous, contrived plots that have so many unnecessary moving parts as to evoke laughter. As I have said earlier, more than one moving part in a plot is a Hollywood invention. A successful plot would have been to let the planes hit and the buildings fall where they may. If it was a plot, it worked, and all the noise from invisible missiles, DEW, Pentagon flyovers, and paint-on thermite by the conspiracy zealots will keep people looking elsewhere until this all goes away.

reply to post by ConspiracyTruth


The only outlandish explanations for 911 are those that don't consider all the facts. Anyone who skips any of the details, especially if they contradict their presumptions, is guaranteed another decade wandering in the wilderness.

Recommended reading:

The Media Are The Enemy
911 for Psychos

reply to post by TheMindWar


Much too much was at stake to use "experimental" (read mythical) weapons.

Tried and true conventional means would have been used, and the damage evidence supports this.

Judy Wood is controlled opposition, with the intent of directing attention away from old-fashioned corruption and insurance fraud, and towards "directed energy" or other exotic weaponry.

Three must-read articles:

Collateral Damage: U.S. Covert Operatinos and the Terrorist Attacks on September 11, 2001

The Bush Family's Project Hammer

Jules Naudet's First Plane Shot Was Staged

Originally posted by psikeyhackr

Originally posted by ConspiracyTruth
They'd throw out competing conspiracy theories so that the 911 Truthers would never get anywhere!

Anyone else guess this might be going on? I see it running rampant here on ATS... on one hand, you're like if the 911 Truth Movement is real, how are we allowed to debate it so openly on a forum like this? On the other hand, you'd think we'll we're getting nowhere, because we keep arguing about the different theories.

The Laws of Physics are incapable of giving a damn about any Conspiracy Theory.

That is why it is so ridiculous to not have the simple but relevant data on the building. If an airliner could make the towers collapse accurate data would help explain it. If it is impossible for planes to cause the buildings to collapse then accurate data should help explain that. So it only makes sense for the data to be disappeared if collapse could not occur. So why doesn't most of the Truth Movement emphasize and demand it?

Absurd behavior from the nation that put men on the Moon.

psik

Of course you are correct, as usual, psik.

But as the laws of physics don't give a damn about conspiracy theories, generated and
contrived 'cartoon' images can spit in the face of the laws of physics. It is seriously contended and
indeed proven that most of the 9/11 imagery (especially the drastic 'impact' and 'collapse'
sequences) released for public consumption was a hollywood style concocted and faked effort, released
with the express purpose of disguising what was probably a conventional demotion job
(carried out behind closed doors and years in the planning) with a fantastical international heart-wrenching
drama/storyline (complete with special effects). The multi-faceted benefits (to some) of such a monstrous
concoction/hoax are surely now clear to see.

www.cluesforum.info
www.septemberclues.info,

where the laws of physics (and photography) are definitely respected.

And it is not ridiculous that such simple and relevent imformation you request is with-held.
It would expose and hang alot of people (including many controlled 9/11 conspiracy 'leaders'),
and unearth a conspiracy almost too large to be believable.
So it depends on your point of view here, you see.

Yes, the laws of physics were not broken on 9/11 but any further attempt to equate the physics of
faked video to reality is obviously a futile exercise.

9/11 was brought to you courtesy of the same nation that brought the moon to the man.

The next question is 'Did the nation that brought us 9/11 fakery and moon landing fakery, also
bring us JFK assassionation fakery?' I ask this seriously, and am convinced that this is
now a real possibility!

www.cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?p=2363059#p2363059

All a sick joke?- On us?

reply to post by psikeyhackr


The majority of the physical evidence is on the Fresh kills landfill on Staten Island. It covers an area of approximately 40 acres and is 15 to 20 feet deep. In my opinion the average particle size indicates extraordinary demolition. wtcfamiliesforproperburial represent some of the families who received no remains. It was agreed for the sake of closure that the missing remains must be in the 'fines', the debris less than 1/4 inch across. The fines covered an area of approximately 1 acre. The families were told the fines would be moved to a respectful grave site. Instead they were suddenly bulldozed over the rest of the debris. If these families wish to visit the only grave site they have, the landfill, they are told they must have a sanitation dept. escort and cannot bring press or photographers.
Dig up samples, analyse samples, case closed. Instead we have millions of words exchanged on subjects such as video or digital data. The location of the physical evidence should be emphasised by every 'Truther'.

reply to post by ConspiracyTruth

So, let's say hypothetically speaking, that there is plenty of truth to the 911 Truth Movement - that our own government was partially or fully involved in the attacks, or that they were "a okay" with the attacks happening and knew about them beforehand... and then let's say the anti-sheaple caught on to this. What would a good lot of disinfo agents do? They'd throw out competing conspiracy theories so that the 911 Truthers would never get anywhere!

Or...what if, and this is just a "what if", what if right after or even before 9/11/2001 hundreds of millions of people were given access to the internet and anyone with access and a keyboard could type and post anything they wanted no matter how absurd and delusional and what if hundreds of millions of people were free to read these messages and believe and repeat anything they wanted at any time? I think that would explain why there's so much crap out there. But that's only if hundreds of millions of people had access to the internet, don't know if thats ever going to happen.

Originally posted by TheMindWar
reply to post by ConspiracyTruth

 

As I have said before, I truly believe that there was "no one reason" for the tower collapse and the attacks. The attacks were obviously a mutlipronged approach and this was done on purpose! If you cannot determine why the towers fell you are in trouble in finding out what happened. Those scientists whom have determined what they believe happened need to come together and put all thier evidence together and put this forward as the final proof.

The attacks that took place were:
Thermite based
Planes or large Drones
Explosives
Hutchison effect based molecular dissasociation weapons
Etc...

If the attacks were only the result of a single attack then they would not be able to even consider trying to covering it up becuase it would be too difficult.

Its time to stop squabbling about who is right or wrong, for they are all correct. Its time to focus on those who benefitted from the attacks.

edit on 10-12-2011 by TheMindWar because: Typos

Sensible, very sensible.
Explosives built in at the time of construction would have degraded. The Towers had to be detonated because of the corrosion caused by dissimilar metals, salt and leaking current from the elevator motors. It was obvious that either a storm was going to send cladding scything through Manhattan or someone would lean against a window and it would pop out. They would have to empty the buildings of tenants, strip off the cladding and remove the windows. Replace windows and cladding and bring tenants back in. Not feasible. So the 'leave them for a hundred years if we don't detonate them' option was out.
Instead we got the disastrous failed attempts to detonate the towers, followed by frantically priming the impact zones while the cameras rolled. Eventually they got both towers to blow and nuked and zapped the falling debris. The thermate may have been a deliberate false trail or an added extra.
All this can be solved by simply digging up the physical evidence on the Fresh Kills Landfill. Send samples to labs around the world for independent analysis. I've got a sneaking suspicion that one or two people who benefitted might not be happy with this suggestion.

Originally posted by pteridine
No disinfo is needed. The folks who like conspiracy theories will remain a group of individuals that disagree on details.

Yea unlike the official 'story' which has changed numerous times over the years. Hell, it seems even Bush & Condoleezza Rice couldn't agree on the story right from the beginning...