POLITICS: Putin blasts U.S.

This Story seem to show this administrations arrogance and as Putin puts it "Cold War Stance" as to Terrorism related to Russia. As if these people who killed 100s of people are not terrorists.



Our governments constant neglect of foreign policy and just plain arrogance has me shaking in anger. Just imagine the uproar, if Russia held talks with Top Al Qaeda Members, or after 9/11 they gave us flack about Afghanistan. They even let us use Russia Air space. To me these are the biggest issues concerning us now. Terror is Terror, if killing 100's of children isn't terror, then what is?



[edit on 9-7-2004 by Valhall]

This has been going on for a long time. Too weird.

Russia and the former USSR are still going through numerous transition problems. It really is as difficult a situation to resolve as the Yugoslav, Turkish, Middle East, Kasmir etc issues. Unlike the incident where a totally foreign terrorist organisation (Al Queda) attacks a country (USA) because they object to its lifestyle or activities. The one strain of terrorism is about independence the other about ideology.

I am sure everybody recalls the African National Congress and MK attacks on South Africa, which was about liberation of the majority . The question though is can anything be resolved by killing women, children and civilians? The answer is always an emphatic NO!

[edit on 7-9-2004 by Mynaeris]

Well yeah, but it still comes to mind that the US support of the separatists is plain wrong and has been for a long time.

I think this last action of the "rebels" should make the US think twice about talking with them... it would be an outright insult to Russia. Who has been fairly supportive of Americas fight against terrorism.
Although in all fairness, one of Americas biggest worries was/is that one of the russian Nukes ended up in some arab terrorists hands. And they still haven't been able to account for all of them. It would be a very bad thing if a russian nuke went off in America from a terrorists plan. But the issue is this: America probably had a right to talk with the "rebels" before, but not now that they have used these terrible methods... civilized talk for civilized people... the rest can suffer. Unless the "rebels" that we have talked with come out with a strong condemnation of those methods, they are included in the suffering.

"before" or "after" Beslan is beside the point.

Chechnya's legal status was a province (autonomy) in the Russian Federation. Then there was this separatist movement which was driving the ethinic Russians out of this territory, seizing their property, kidnapping them and finally unilaterally declaring independence, circumventing due process. While I'm not trying to jusstify the failed Russian campaign there, the US giving shelter and recognition to a force fighting the legit Russian govt, well, sucks. It's like Russian opening an embassy in Moscow for Pablo Escobar or something like that.

The US should definitely stop legitimizing the Chechen Separatist movement by having talks with them.

The action taken recently of granting Asylum to one of the Chechen separatists and giving him a job at the National Endowment for Democracy was really a slap in the face to Russia and to the war on terror.

I doubt the US would like it if the Russians granted asylum to Al-Qaeda members.


[edit on 7-9-2004 by AceOfBase]

Poses a serious question, when is a terrorist a freedom fighter?
There is a point where armed struggle against an oppressor is legitimate.
How do you differentiate.
The Chechens are terrorists, the French Resistance were heroes.

I guess US only take notice and actions when his best interest is at hart.

Smudge very good point, it depends which side they are favoring at the moment.

If that horrible tragedy with those children's was on US soil rather than a foreign country it would have been fed by the media through every single orifice we have in our bodies.

Nerveless the approach of US after instigating the hatred on the Middle East is questionable.

Originally posted by Smudge
Poses a serious question, when is a terrorist a freedom fighter?
There is a point where armed struggle against an oppressor is legitimate.
How do you differentiate.
The Chechens are terrorists, the French Resistance were heroes.

Well, first and foremost....did the french have oil or tropical rain forests waiting to be exploited.....that seems to be an important attribute to reaching the rank of "terrorist"...the homeland you are fighting for must have some valuable resource on it for many countries to be interested in gaining control....then one...in this instance Russia....has to gain control of that resource for the terrorist to rise up against...
the there has to another country also interested in the resourse, like the US, willing to befriend these terrorists, name them as "freedom fighters" and begin arming them to the point where they can do major damage to the controlling nation. Thus, the Nazi's probably did consider the french underground as terrorists or something equivilent to it...

But, it seems that the all of the "terrorists" at work today are the natives of lands that are being exploited by other countries for their natural resources.
So, we are harboring chechan terrorists, we are harboring terrorists....do we have the obligation bomb our own cities, ect....god knows we are probably one of the main countries (Russia is also) that have aided and helped them along their paths...

This poses a little bit of a problem. In the middle of a disaster and hatred towards terrorism, the name of the United States echoes through the angry crowds of human beings trying to make sense out of terrorism and what it has done to their children. Russians may not have had any hatred for Americans in general, just our policies, however hatred has a tendency to expand so to speak when circumstances such as this occur.

I figure the US has few options at this point. We could denounce further talks with these terrorists (not freedom fighters) and make a public statement of how appauled we are with the actions of terrorism - If the US does not show disatisfaction with this in a powerful way, it will prove that the US is greedy and heartless to Russians and others and will back up the Mid East reason(s) for Terrorism as well - everyone will have a good time with this.

The US is becoming more and more unfavorable. It doesn't matter if Kerry gets into office because I am positively sure that his presence in office will not make a difference, as a matter of fact it may make the US look like even bigger idiots.

I agree with almost everything you said. Please define freedom fighter for me.
We are not debating that this particular action was abhorrent, that goes without saying.
As was the bombing of Dresden or the anhillation of Nagasaki etc.
Are the Chechen seperatists terrorists, as a group.

Nothing can justify such killing of children. The world as whole should condemn such evil. Anyone supporting such terror is the enemy of humanity! I guess US has not yet decided on which side to take.

With the potential of Russia, there are too many things Russia can do if they want.

From my understanding, freedom fighters are those who fight for freedom and will take actions to ensure they are heard - sacraficing themselves, not innocent children. I believe that when you start sacraficing others innocent lives intentially you are a terrorist. Sometimes in the action to fight for freedom there might be a casualty, but mostly unintentual.

The actions of the administration should be disturbing to all of us. You can not label some terrorists and some not if they are taking the same actions. People, even in the US are going to start to wonder who are the real terrorists? Those who boldly claim to be or those who hide behind the curtain.

One thing that defines a terrorirst is quite simply using terror tactics.

The separatist govt of Chechnya includes a few field commanders that were the masterminds behind attacks such as the Theater Siege, and capturing villages in the neighboring Dagestan.

There is no debate that these people are terrorists. They are.

Further,

Chechens were not exploited by the Russians in anyway and Russia has limited intrest in Chechen oil, having large capacities elsewhere.

The US coddling the Chechen terrorists is just a way to gain political leverage with Russia. It must stop.

dictionary.reference.com...

Actually you'll find that they are Freedom Fighters.

dictionary.reference.com...

And Terrorists.

Its all about perception.
If I was in their position I would be a freedom fighter also, I like to think that I would not be drawn into the killing of children. But this tactic is used to attract maximum publicity for their cause. It works doesn't it.

If the cold War had gone the other way, I guarentee that 90% of this boards gung ho warrior types would also be freedom fighters.
The intellectual types would be sitting, like this, discussing ways to gain maximum publicity globally for our cause....nothing like children to get their attention.
Please don't think I am in favour of or condone this action, I have shed more than a few tears over today's new footage. I'm simply pointing out that there are two sides, and I think that these people are engaged in legitmate struggle as opposed to Al Queeda etc. who could quite happily go home to their countries of origin and live out a peaceful existence
This is the key difference. The Terrorist instigates violence.
The freedom fighter reacts to violence, oppressed in his own country

Originally posted by Aelita

There is no debate that these people are terrorists. They are.


The US coddling the Chechen terrorists is just a way to gain political leverage with Russia. It must stop.

I agree with you. - maybe there have never been freedom fighters.

All I know is that this was a TERRORIST and inhumane attack. I don't care what their point was. The US should not be talking/negotiating with terrorists when they supposidly condemn terrorism. How much better can America make itself look?

Originally posted by Smudge
I'm simply pointing out that there are two sides, and I think that these people are engaged in legitmate struggle as opposed to Al Queeda etc. who could quite happily go home to their countries of origin and live out a peaceful existence

The facts are:
(a) Russians were ethnically cleansed by the Chechens, how cool is that in your book?

(b) The fighters openly state that they want to establish the Wahhabi brand of Islam in Chechnya. There is no difference between Al Qaeda and these bastards, for that matter. They could live peacefully, too, but they chose otherwise.

This is great, let's play with Chechens to help work against Russia. What if Russia decides Iraqi resistance needs some new toys and that Iran needs some more military might. Imagine if there were terrorists trying to seperate Alaska from US and Russia was 'talking' to their leaders.

Originally posted by taibunsuu
Imagine if there were terrorists trying to seperate Alaska from US and Russia was 'talking' to their leaders.

Alaska actually is Russian Land that was leased by the US and never returned.