Federal Agents Demand Customer Lists From Mormon Food Storage Facility

Originally posted by romanmel

Originally posted by nightbringr
What kind of business keeps no records of sales?

Say what you want about the conspiracy side of this, but this cannery can certainly expect an audit soon. If i ran my business that way, keeping no records or documentation i would expect to be audited and shut down. Why no records? Are they avoiding paying their taxes?

First of all, the cannery is not a business. It is a service to the members of a church, first and foremost. The government and churches have a "wall of seperation" between them according to government edict. No "records" need be kept by a church since it's operation is none of BigGov's business. No "audits" by BigGov on churches and their property is ever in order. You should also be aware churches don't have to pay taxes.

Wow that seems very wrong. Religion should answer to the government, my business has to. Can you please point out a source showing they do not need to keep paperwork of any kind? Tax exempt i understand, but surely they must be expected to keep their books in order.

I would think if i was a criminal and wanted to launder money, a church would be the best place to do it then, wouldnt it? Wonder if outlaw bikers or mafia use organized religion as a cover. Sounds like they should.

Originally posted by nightbringr

Originally posted by romanmel

Originally posted by nightbringr
What kind of business keeps no records of sales?

Say what you want about the conspiracy side of this, but this cannery can certainly expect an audit soon. If i ran my business that way, keeping no records or documentation i would expect to be audited and shut down. Why no records? Are they avoiding paying their taxes?

First of all, the cannery is not a business. It is a service to the members of a church, first and foremost. The government and churches have a "wall of seperation" between them according to government edict. No "records" need be kept by a church since it's operation is none of BigGov's business. No "audits" by BigGov on churches and their property is ever in order. You should also be aware churches don't have to pay taxes.

Wow that seems very wrong. Religion should answer to the government. My business has to.

I would think if i was a criminal and wanted to launder money, a church would be the best place to do it then, wouldnt it? Wonder if outlaw bikers or mafia use organized religion as a cover. Sounds like they should.

You are in error. It was BiGov that INSISTED on a "wall of seperation" between government and churches. You evidently think churches could be used by criminals? What about BigGov? Can you find anyplace where there are more criminals than in the halls of congress?

reply to post by nightbringr


Its not a business unless you make a profit. And its a church sponsored humanitarian effort. The IRS and others have no need for anything besides the gross receipts and the balance sheet at the end of the year.

Its really none of anyone business who buys things. Obviously a significant amount of poor dont want to be identified as such and the rest are under religious protection even though its no secret the religion tells people to store food.

The Bible say all through history troubled times and times of starvation lasted for periods of 7 years. I wouldnt even give a second thought to that amount for storage. At any rate every Christian has religious protection for 7 years that is documented in its book of worship. I dont think the guberment wants to start a war with Christians, because too many are on the inside with their hands on the controls. So they can say what they want. 7 years is documented numerous times as the amount to have.

Atheists get 7 days .......rotflmao.

I guess that Walmart will be out of business......

There are many people that shop at Sams Club

I will have to see it to believe it

reply to post by romanmel


Ok, i thought you must be wrong, here is the proof. I asked you to provide me with a link showing the government cannot interfere or ask for paperwork and instead you gave me some oddball excuse about there being more crooks in the government. Was that ever an issue? Of course there are crooks in the government, did i ever dispute that?

In order for a church or organized religion to become tax exempt, they must incorporate themselves. And i quote:
(Matthews v. Adams, 520 So. 2d 334) (1988)

Appellants [the church] appeal on the basis that the circuit court had no authority over them because they are a recognized religious organization, a church. On first reflection they appeared to be correct but upon a closer study of the complaint and the judgment we [the court] are of the opinion that this is not an improper interference by the government into a church, or ecclesiastical, matter. When the members of the church decided to incorporate their body under the laws of the state of Florida they submitted themselves to the jurisdiction of the state courts in all matters of a corporate nature, such as accounting for funds (Matthews v. Adams, 520 So. 2d 334) (1988).

reply to post by nightbringr



Thats a church corporation. They intend to run businesses to raise money for the church. Completely different than a non profit status.

These people buy a sack of beans, then sell it for their cost. Different concept entirely.

reply to post by nightbringr



Thats a church corporation. They intend to run businesses to raise money for the church. Completely different than a non profit status.

These people buy a sack of beans, then sell it for their cost. Different concept entirely.

Originally posted by Shadowalker
Its not a business unless you make a profit. And its a church sponsored humanitarian effort. The IRS and others have no need for anything besides the gross receipts and the balance sheet at the end of the year.

Untrue. See my post above showing a court case where it was deamed that a church, in order to obtain tax exempt status must become incorporated. By doing so, they are required to comply with any rules and regulations a corporation is required to. Yes, we all know how much of a joke that is, corporations get away witrh murder. Yet, my point is proven.

Originally posted by Shadowalker
Its really none of anyone business who buys things. Obviously a significant amount of poor dont want to be identified as such and the rest are under religious protection even though its no secret the religion tells people to store food.

Not sure i see your point. There is very good reason to know what some people are purchasing. Remember Timothy McVie? I bet the government or law enforcement would have loved to know how much explosive fertilizer he was purchasing before he killed many in what was at the time the largest terrorist attack on US soil. The man was an avowed Roman Catholic who regularly attented mass.

Originally posted by nightbringr
reply to post by romanmel

 

Ok, i thought you must be wrong, here is the proof. I asked you to provide me with a link showing the government cannot interfere or ask for paperwork and instead you gave me some oddball excuse about there being more crooks in the government. Was that ever an issue? Of course there are crooks in the government, did i ever dispute that?

If there are crooks in BigGov why should a church submit to a bunch of crooks?

The decision you quote is a Florida thing. You can find all kinds of state rulings, many illegal, since Federal law takes presidence. You are correct that in order to allow tax deductions for doners churches must be incorporated but that in no way implies churches are subject to the whims of BigGov or somehow answer to their authority.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Which one of those demands customer lists so that they can carry inspections to customer homes?

If I really need to provide a complete list of Federal Agents and their associated agencies I will do so. I think your missing the point of the post. The FDA, USDA and Health Inspectors can ask for customer lists to see if they are in fact doing business (for profit). They (The "Feds") have every right to ASK (even if it could incriminate the Cannery) but not demand.

reply to post by nightbringr



I did. You quoted state law for a church corporation. Not the same.


If there was a single terrorist left in the country we would have snitched them by now. Bet your ass I would have cashed them in for whatever it pays. There is nothing. Nada. One giant fairy tale to bleed the people for tax money.

Can you find anyplace where there are more criminals than in the halls of congress?

Yeah.. the Vatican.
They have laundered more cash, influecned elections, supported nazis, covered up for Child abuse and pedophelia, murdered,tortured, lied, started wars,... and theyve been doing it longer than there has been a United States.

But that's a different thread.


Im sure Im on some list, but I could care less.
Know my name. Know I will resist.
Want to come get me?

Come get some.
I have no problems defending my home and family.
Ive done it before, I can do it again.
.

Originally posted by Shadowalker
reply to post by nightbringr

 

Thats a church corporation. They intend to run businesses to raise money for the church. Completely different than a non profit status.

These people buy a sack of beans, then sell it for their cost. Different concept entirely.

*sigh*

Please learn to research things yourself before constantly regurgitating the same erroneous sentences.

If you are convinced that a business or group, non-profit or not, corporation or not has no obligation to ever supply the government, IRS or local civic judiciary with any paperwork, please post a link showing it. I cannot find anything of the sort and in fact quite the opposite.

Originally posted by romanmel
reply to post by zeeon

 

It is interesting to note that you have such a high regard for the good intentions of the Federal Government. Ever hear of Project Fast and Furious? You might want to reevaluate your blind trust of the Feds.

So instead of logically refuting my argument, you instead decide to attack my character. You friend have no idea who I am, what I do or how I feel about anything. So save your assumptions.

Do you really feel the Feds have the right to invade the church owned property and demand a customer list and copies of checks and credit card documents regardless of what "branch" they are agents of?

This is classic fear mongering. "Invade" ??? I'm sorry I must have missed the announcement that we had declared war against the LDS and it's associated Cannery's. Furthermore, the OP never said anything about copies of checks and credit card documents - they simply asked for a list of customers they did "business" with, which is perfectly within the Federal Governments pervue.

What ever happened to seperation of church and state? If, as you have argued, they are only interested in contaminated foods, why would they want to seize customer lists? Wouldn't it be more logical to seize supplier lists?

LOL! What does separation of church and state have anything what-so-ever to do with Federal Agents inspecting and asking about customer lists from a cannery that is suspected of selling (for profit) canned foods? Don't worry, I'll answer it for you - absolutely - nothing. There are a plethora of reasons to ask for customer lists - to see how much money they're making, to see who they do business with (perhaps they are gathering evidence for a legitimate investigation, maybe they are going to use the documents against the cannery in a legal proceeding? The point is WE DON'T KNOW.

It is quite obvious that the intent of these Feds were to get a list of customers. I would imagine that those that worked in the cannery were so taken aback by this invasion that they probably did not think to get these Feds ID.

Again, invasion? I love how your using loaded words to stir up the hornets nets. Remember the motto of this website is to deny ignorance - not feed into it.

Originally posted by nightbringr
reply to post by romanmel

 

Ok, i thought you must be wrong, here is the proof. I asked you to provide me with a link showing the government cannot interfere or ask for paperwork and instead you gave me some oddball excuse about there being more crooks in the government. Was that ever an issue? Of course there are crooks in the government, did i ever dispute that?

In order for a church or organized religion to become tax exempt, they must incorporate themselves. And i quote:
(Matthews v. Adams, 520 So. 2d 334) (1988)

Appellants [the church] appeal on the basis that the circuit court had no authority over them because they are a recognized religious organization, a church. On first reflection they appeared to be correct but upon a closer study of the complaint and the judgment we [the court] are of the opinion that this is not an improper interference by the government into a church, or ecclesiastical, matter. When the members of the church decided to incorporate their body under the laws of the state of Florida they submitted themselves to the jurisdiction of the state courts in all matters of a corporate nature, such as accounting for funds (Matthews v. Adams, 520 So. 2d 334) (1988).

It must be my eyes. From over here, it looks like if they DON'T incorporate, then they are exempted, and outside the jurisdiction of the State, and that WAS State - Florida, it says.

What does Federal law say - other than the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights, I mean. We already know what that says about government interference in church matters, and we already know that the Feds tend to not much care what the Constitution says, anyhow.

So what does Federal law say about it?

Are they then going to sell the list to Monstanto so that they can sue for not using GMO products? lol

Originally posted by romanmel
If there are crooks in BigGov why should a church submit to a bunch of crooks?

Are you always this obtuse? The government are all crooks, the catholic church is full of pedophiles and the mormons are polygamists. See, i can stereotype too! The point im making is yes, the government has every right to ask for chruches paperwork and accounting finances. If you insist they do not have to, please show me some proof. Any proof. Oh, but you cant, can you?

Originally posted by romanmel

The decision you quote is a Florida thing. You can find all kinds of state rulings, many illegal, since Federal law takes presidence. You are correct that in order to allow tax deductions for doners churches must be incorporated but that in no way implies churches are subject to the whims of BigGov or somehow answer to their authority

Please then, since you argue but never supply your own sources, post something that backs up your assertation that church and religion does not answer to the government in any way, shape or form. Your arguing in circles.

reply to post by nightbringr


Oh they supply it to the IRS. every year.



But your still not gonna tell me fertilizer is the same as beans. What is someone gonna do? eat the whole bag and fart the air bad?

You sir are wrong. Asinine examples that have not even one reference point to the issue are not going to cut it.


The govt has no right to know who buys food or any quantity they may purchase. Being a lazy worthless piece of crap agent with the head in the rectum ........gives no right.

An agent needs to get off their dead ass and do solid investigating and police work. Not make a pool of everyone, and call them terrorists, when they are normal citizens and then decide which ones to pull out and call terrorists. Not based on the fact they eat and poop.

Thats for the short bus.



Regardless There is a document ( a 2000 year old book if you like) that bears a history that all followers have a re-occuring 7 year time frame they should prepare for.

Originally posted by zeeon

Originally posted by nenothtu

Which one of those demands customer lists so that they can carry inspections to customer homes?

If I really need to provide a complete list of Federal Agents and their associated agencies I will do so.

Well THAT is a bit extreme and over the top - why so serial? If you've got access to that sort of information, you may not be someone I want to play with any how. Are you in Human Resources for the Federales?

Seriously - I asked for no such thing - why so extreme?

I think your missing the point of the post. The FDA, USDA and Health Inspectors can ask for customer lists to see if they are in fact doing business (for profit). They (The "Feds") have every right to ASK (even if it could incriminate the Cannery) but not demand.

Try again.

Customer lists have no bearing at all on WHETHER they are doing business - it only bears on who they do business WITH.

What then of cash and carry, where no name is ever known to begin with? Can such a business claim NOT to be doing business for profit simply by not having a customer list?

Sure, they can ask - anyone can ASK, even you, or especially pertinent, ME (I'm not in Federal Human Resources). Here's the thing, though - if I ask, I'm going to have a REASON to do so.

I bet they did, too (if it even occurred), and we can see that knowing specific names has no bearing on whether or not business is being done.

Originally posted by nenothtu
It must be my eyes. From over here, it looks like if they DON'T incorporate, then they are exempted, and outside the jurisdiction of the State, and that WAS State - Florida, it says.

No idea why you are reading it that way. Let me repost the line in question.
When the members of the church decided to incorporate their body under the laws of the state of Florida they submitted themselves to the jurisdiction of the state courts in all matters of a corporate nature, such as accounting for funds
So, this states that once they decided to incorporate, they are subjected to the same laws as any other corporation. So obviously this would include the right for the IRS or any other board with jurisdiction to ask for paperwork.

Originally posted by nenothtu
What does Federal law say - other than the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights, I mean. We already know what that says about government interference in church matters, and we already know that the Feds tend to not much care what the Constitution says, anyhow.

So what does Federal law say about it?

Good question. Looking into it now. Reguardless, if it turns out that organized religion is exempt from any type of oversight from federal bodies, i will be outraged.