2 Planes flying in same holdiing pattern above Las Vegas

reply to post by Awoken4Ever


I did provide insight and I was on topic.
The Air Force flies planes.
What's weird about them flying planes? They have to practice....

Originally posted by xuenchen
I have seen this before...several times.

mmm well it doesn't happen often... that they circle for hours. I will give John a call and see if he has an answer.

Didn't know you were a local too

Originally posted by GmoS719
What's weird about them flying planes? They have to practice....

They do not practice over Nellis... that is why they have the huge Nellis bombing range. Nellis AFB is in the city.

What is weird is the hours of circling. OP is right it isn't a normal occurrence here

reply to post by Awoken4Ever


All you have to do is call the base operator

Base Operator(702) 652-1110


I see the next Red Flag is scheduled for Jan. 23 -Feb. 3, 2012. Its gonna be noisy then

reply to post by zorgon


The answer was on Page 1:

What is weird is the hours of circling. OP is right it isn't a normal occurrence here...

NASA research, a WB-57.

Nellis AFB (KLSV) activity

And, picking out the specific flights, here is a focus on just one (you can see others as well):

NASA926

Later that same day (7th December, 2011):

NASA 926 again

You can click on the Track Log and Graph for more detail info.

Looks like the actual return for landing is missing some detail, but this could easily be accounted for by the flight cancelling IFR, and finishing the flight VFR for the return to (I presume) Nellis.

Commercial airlines are not allowed to cancel IFR (decades ago you could, but not in today's environment, when it's a scheduled revenue flight).

Proudbird...are the loops on the tracking accurate? Meaning, if they do multiple loops, would it show it here? It doesn't make sense either, because if up on the map is north, then that is not where they were circling at all. It was NE of KLSV quite a bit, so these maps are not showing their true paths at all if it is suppose to be accurate, and I don't understand why they wouldn't be.

It's also odd that they don't show what time they planes landed on this. However, from what I figured out by departing time until I saw it stop, they flew in circles from 9:15 am until about 3:30 pm.

As for as the post discussing it being normal, and why I would be so surprised by it, I live on top of a peak that looks down on Vegas. I have a clear path to see everything, and I am constantly looking up every chance I get. In all the years here, I have never seen this before. In fact, in all my years on the planet, I have never seen this anywhere before. Again, it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but for the line of site I have on the city, I have never seen anything like this before and I am outside all day long.

reply to post by Awoken4Ever


It should be accurate, it's based on what the radar saw. The Track Log has the Lat/Long positions, you could plot them and see for yourself I suppose.

The landing times? As I said, they will not always show if the airplane cancelled IFR (instrument Flight Rules) once it descended below 18,000 feet. You can see that the estimated departure/arrival times are shown, because they had to file IFR initially, in order to operate at those high altitudes, and the Flight Plan includes those sorts of estimates as a matter of routine.

However, when you're "done with your business", in their case, they can just cancel (since the weather was clear) and end the flight VFR. So, there is no longer a recorded "landed" time....doesn't need one.

It is a peculiarity to some people, perhaps, but not to pilots, especially in the USA. You see, just as you can take off also in VFR, and then while airborne call ATC and be inserted into the "system" under IFR rules (say the weather is getting bad at your destination, you need to go IFR in order to proceed to landing). In that case, Flight Aware won't have a take off time recorded.

Another thing about IFR Flight Plans is, they either cancel automatically when you land, or at the pilot's request with ATC. (And, as I noted, scheduled revenue air carriers cannot cancel while airborne, it just isn't done anymore. Was many years ago, in certain instances, for expediency's sake, when the weather was nice, and the established IFR procedures were too cumbersome, such as in mountainous destinations, etc).

Well here is a couple of pics from my point of view. The flight plan doesn't accurately show what they were doing because one of the planes it shows making 3 loops. I watched it for hours just going in circles, so that can't be accurate at all. All the other plains they show making multiple loops are outside the city, over the mountains, which I would of never of seen. Here is what I saw (roughly)



The pink box is the airport. The green loop was the lower flying plane. The red one was the higher flying plane.

Here is flightaware:



These are not even close to what they were doing. In fact, if this was accurate, then that means they would have had to flown over my head, behind me, and behind the mountains, which I would of never have seen. I watched from one position looking east, both planes making complete circles. According to FlightAware's chart, I would have never been able to see them do the full circle because they would of disappeared behind me, not to mention fly over the top of me. As the pictures I shown in other posts, those were taking while they were in the middle of going back around, dead in front of me east. It is impossible for me to take those pictures in the way I did if they were flying behind me, which they never did.

As for the amount of loops, it's not even close. If the planes took off in the AM, and I literally watched them for about 4 hours, they would of made so many loops that chart on FlightAware would of been covered in paths. Someone has manipulated what these planes truly did according to those charts. Therefore, those charts can't actually be relied on for accuracy, which I have stated to you in another thread before.

So either I am lying, you are lying, or "they" are lying. I know it's not me for sure, because I have absolutely nothing to gain by doing so.

reply to post by zorgon


John who?? Lear?

reply to post by Awoken4Ever


I don't discount another persons' opinion --

Where were they circling? To the North East of Vegas (Nellis and the range?). If you want I can provide you the holding patterns for the airspace in question.

reply to post by ownbestenemy


I would be happy to look at anything that would help make sense of things that don't seem right to me

I have seen a lot, and I mean a lot of stuff, that doesn't make sense, and people keep trying to tell me I am wrong and providing information that doesn't match up to what I am personally (and others) witnessing. I think some people, possibly proudbird's intentions are well, but we have had a few heated arguments about what I am seeing and what he is providing. They simply don't match up. I don't want to discredit him at all, because he obviously knows a lot more than I do when it comes to this sort of stuff, but I keep trying to explain that it simply just doesn't match up at all.

Just because they were flying around an air force base doesn't mean it is normal. IMO, I find it to be just the opposite. I find it completely odd that there would be two planes, circling for hours on end, in two completely different directions at times, switch it up, and then fly the same direction, perfectly triangled between three airports (McCarrran, North Las Vegas, and Nellis). There is nothing at all that seems normal to me about that. Not in that type of crowded airspace IMO. If you lived here and saw how close all this was to one another, and how the major airport's departure flights fly right through the middle of the lower plane, it just doesn't add up.

I don't understand how pilots are using a system like FlightAware that is suppose to help them track and navigate, yet it is so completely off when it comes to some of the stuff that is flying out here.

reply to post by Awoken4Ever


The second image you posted there, from Flight Aware, appears to be the one from the 6th December. When I looked it up in the history, it matched perfectly.

Now, as to when you saw the (don't say "looping", that means something else in aviation....a Loop is an aerobatic maneuver, and is vertical, not horizontal) airplanes circling, even "orbiting" is a proper description....to the NE, if they caught you eye they might well have been below 18,000 feet?

I know, it's difficult to judge altitude....much of the determination depends on experience, and also knowing the type of airplane. Also, taking into account the terrain elevation is a bit over 2,000 feet already. So, if they were say, at 17,000 Mean Sea Level, that's about 15,000 above the ground. Point is, they can operate there and not be on Flight Aware, if they are not in the ATC system on an IFR flight plan. Only need to be IFR if the weather is bad, or they are above 18,000 feet.

Originally posted by Awoken4Ever
I don't understand how pilots are using a system like FlightAware that is suppose to help them track and navigate, yet it is so completely off when it comes to some of the stuff that is flying out here.

Recognize that software such as FlightAware only takes 3rd party Flight Data of flights with pre-determined flight paths -- and does not integrate in real time any deviation of a given flight.

Again -- I am not not trying to discount your account in any means but circling planes -- via still shots and your word -- are not abnormal. There are a number of normal scenarios:

Nellis AFB could be running a sortie of planes that required them to do touch and gos. The planes can and will attain altitude that give a perception of circling plans

At ~0200Z (6pm lcl time) there was an accident (a helicopter with 5 fatalities) east of the airport and the local TRACON could have placed planes into a holding pattern -- Though this scenario, given the daylight of your photos is not plausible.

A plane could have deviated from its intended path that placed other commercial craft into a holding pattern.

As you see, planes circling could be normal -- and again, I am not discounting your account just stating that it isn't all that weird. One thing to note -- weather was not in play to cause planes to circle as weather in the Vegas area was clear and winds were calm.

reply to post by Awoken4Ever


There also could have been a "photo" mission occurring at that time. Depending on altitude and classified airspace, they could have hung in that pattern for an indefinite amount of time.

reply to post by ownbestenemy


I could see that for sure and wouldn't doubt it. However, that doesn't explain why the flight patterns are so completely off from flightaware but that is another topic within itself I am sure it could be a hundred things, and none of them I will figure out. It's just the evidence other people produce, and what I am actually witnessing just don't match up day in and day out. I even gave up trying to prove my point because I got tired of people telling me I am wrong when I haven't seen a stitch of evidence that supports me being wrong yet. The further I dig, the more questions come up, the more I realize I just might not be wrong about certain things

There is an awful lot of activity in that neck of the woods the last few months. None of which, are lining up on the flight tracking sites people keep mentioning.

Originally posted by Awoken4Ever

I don't understand how pilots are using a system like FlightAware that is suppose to help them track and navigate, yet it is so completely off when it comes to some of the stuff that is flying out here.

Flight Aware has nothing to do with how pilots navigate - they do NOT use it.

And if there are discrepancies betwen what you saw and the tracks here then there's 3 possible reasons - conceivably of all of which could apply:

1/ The planes are/were not on Flight Aware
2/ There was more than 1 plane, and you are mistaken saying it was always the same one - did you specifically watch them, closely, the whole time??
3/ The flights were other flights that no-one has recognised and pulled off Flight Aware yet.

Whatever combination applies, IMO you are leaping to extraordinary conclusions saying the flights are suspicious just because you haven't seen anyone or anything do anything like it before.

There is certainly nothing wrong with being curious about something you have not seen before, but to use that as evidence of suspicion is unwarranted IMO.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


All valid points, and "no" I did not watch the planes the whole time. They could of switched on and off many times while I went back inside.

My guess is that it could be related to the helicopter crash yesterday. Could be search crews?

www.usatoday.com...

Really! A two page post about 2 airplanes flying a control pattern near 2 airports??

I once sat in Iowa for 4 hours watching Air Force One take off and land repeatedly. I thought THAT was odd.
But 2 planes flying a control pattern is not only usual, it happens EVERY day.

:insertheadscratchingemoticonhere:

reply to post by Awoken4Ever

However, that doesn't explain why the flight patterns are so completely off from flightaware but that is another topic within itself

Did you see my point above? You started this thread on the 7th, about what you saw on the 7th....then, you took a screen shot from Flight Aware form on the 6th, and said it "didn't match" what you saw on the 7th.

There is an awful lot of activity in that neck of the woods the last few months. None of which, are lining up on the flight tracking sites people keep mentioning.

One more thing to consider is perspective. Due to personal judgments, and perhaps lack of experience at being able to gauge distances, merely by "eyeballing" it (difficult to be accurate, even for those with experience). When you look at the results of ground tracks that are recorded on Flight Aware (after the fact, for no other reason than to satisfy these sorts of questions...Flight Aware tracking is not used "live" for any other reason), you are seeing them from a perfect top-down perspective.

When on the ground, viewing up and at an angle, your perspective and visual perception of position can be skewed a bit, and this depends on many factors.

Example: You wish a friend to see what you see, so you point to it, and might say "It's over Red Rock Mountain" as you point that direction. What you mean is to tell your friend how to find the airplane in the sky, from your perspective, by referring to a local landmark and looking "above" that. It can lead to a person believing the airplane really is "above" Red Rock, but this may, or may not, be the case. It could be closer to you, and not directly "above", or farther away, and still not directly "above". That is the nature of perspective.

This fun video shows by example. The 747 never flew over the Golden Gate Bridge, at that low altitude....but, the illusion is strong:



See? In the first part, it looks like that left turn is right over the Bridge....until you see the landing gear cross in front of the Bridge tower structure.


BTW, for trivia fans, if you listen to the cameraman on the soundtrack, when he says "Looks like Kai Tak, man!" he is referring to the old airport in Hong Kong, before the new one was built on an artificial island in the bay. The old Kai Tak was a very challenging approach, and involved that sort of turn, on very short final. Combine the difficulty of that, with some strong, and gusty winds, and you have an E-Ticket ride (past Disneyland reference, for you old timers).

Here, for entertainment (YouTube is worth something else, at least!), a compilation someone made: