The Free Speech Topic

This is an important question you should honestly come up with the answer to for this day and age:

Does free speech get us anywhere these days? Why or why not?

Lets delve deep into free speech and find out why or why not its working in your country.

And as for the U.S. constitution's free speech amendment being effective or non-effective in times of civil unrest... Do we rather need people to know they have free action as a natural right?

You can speak , but no one listens .

Free speech is exactly that...free speech. As said above, you can say whatever you want, it's not going to change anything in this day and age. It's too late in North America for change to come through legal means initiated by the people. The rules of law are there to protect those in power and them only.

Free speech, political correctnes. it's all a lie. just another form of control.

True indeed.

I gave you both stars for telling it like it is.

Talking about free speech on a site which doesn't allow it
But seriously Iam all for free speech as long as it's done in a polite and respectful manner.
Otherwise I think people turn off to the message that you are trying to say.

It gets you pepper sprayed and beaten by police.

The problem is when one side or the other tries to shut down free speech for political purposes. The 1st Amendment isn't about protecting what I or you like. It's about protecting what we don't like.

Example: I'm 100% against illegal immigration, and think it should be stopped. However, by taking this stance, the left claims "racism". It's no different than when the church would scream "heretic" to shut down discussion. However by claiming "racism", they totally lose any sense of what real racism is all about.

reply to post by boymonkey74

Talking about free speech on a site which doesn't allow it

You have no expectation of "freedom of speech" while using a privately owned and operated web site. Beyond that, if the site didn't allow it, as you claim, your post would have been moderated by now.

This site allows you ample room to discuss just about anything you want, with 1 glaring exception, as long as you stay clearly within the T&C that you AGREED to when signing up.

Is freedom of speech important? Yes. But what I feel is more important is understanding what that actually means.

reply to post by WarJohn


People want free speech but the truth is they want free speech that is in their favor. Remember free speech means i can shout the n word as loud as i want and give death threats whenever i feel like it.
Don't believe me? Go to one of the many free speech forums on the internet and see how long you last, slaves love their chains.

reply to post by navy_vet_stg3

Example: I'm 100% against illegal immigration, and think it should be stopped. However, by taking this stance, the left claims "racism". It's no different than when the church would scream "heretic" to shut down discussion. However by claiming "racism", they totally lose any sense of what real racism is all about.

And what exactly do you call labeling anyone who disagrees with you part of the "left" or "right"? It's the same silly thing my friend, plenty of people leaning towards the "right" are also open to helping those people come and stay LEGALLY. I honestly have not seen a single person advocating illegal immigration.

But see, simply calling them a "leftist" is exactly like you described, a weak method to pigeon hole them into a group they might not be a part of. It's an easy way to ignore any logical reasons they may have for their opinion, because they are a "leftist".

You are correct to say that some use "racism" as a shield to deflect away from any argument based on logic, but you can't deny a good portion of those posting here who are "100% against illegal immigration" are in fact racists and they continually go over the line.

Don't like illegals, or don't like Mexicans at all? That's the key, "illegals" is now the safe word for these guys.

"Oh those lazy dirty illegals, learn to speak American"

Etc etc. That's not a rally against illegal immigrants, that's pure racism using the term "illegal" to slip through the filters. Thankfully it seems these guys are in the minority, but sadly, they are extremely vocal.

reply to post by PrimalRed

People want free speech but the truth is they want free speech that is in their favor. Remember free speech means i can shout the n word as loud as i want and give death threats whenever i feel like it. Don't believe me? Go to one of the many free speech forums on the internet and see how long you last, slaves love their chains.

Uttering death threats is a crime. Your right to freedom of speech does not come at the expense of others safety, sorry, you would be wise to educate yourself on exactly what "freedom of speech protection" covers, hate speech, death threats, and the such, are criminal offenses and are not protected.

As well, you can't knowingly lie about people as they can sue you for libel or slander.

Originally posted by listerofsmeg
Free speech, political correctnes. it's all a lie. just another form of control.

Sad yet seems so,

it's all based on fear, fear of what others will think, and how they will act, fear of if i say this to someone it will be a loss of business, or tarnish my reputation, or blacklist me etc,


take into consideration the 'Free Speech Zones' in place,

i've always contemplated, at an awards ceremony, it's acceptable to thank 'God' for everything, i wish once someone thanked Satan, i wonder how the response would be?

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by PrimalRed

 

Uttering death threats is a crime. Your right to freedom of speech does not come at the expense of others safety, sorry, you would be wise to educate yourself on exactly what "freedom of speech protection" covers, hate speech, death threats, and the such, are criminal offenses and are not protected.

As well, you can't knowingly lie about people as they can sue you for libel or slander.

edit on 1-12-2011 by phishyblankwaters because: (no reason given)

I know free speech genius, i was talking about absolute free speech i know what the difference is. If you were not so busy trying to convince people that you are "smart" you would have seen that.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters


But see, simply calling them a "leftist" is exactly like you described, a weak method to pigeon hole them into a group they might not be a part of. It's an easy way to ignore any logical reasons they may have for their opinion, because they are a "leftist".

a valid point, indeed a grand point,


the left and right paradigm has existed since the beginning of 'Politics' and I'm sure prior to that in a sense,


and it's a means of 'divide and conquer' a means of control, it places people into certain groups by which they measure their social stances, likewise political ideologies,

and is a constant battle of political parties, left versus right, conservative versus liberal, etc

reply to post by WarJohn

Originally posted by WarJohn
Does free speech get us anywhere these days?

The guarantee of free speech does not include a guarantee of a response. People have the freedom to express themselves, not the guarantee that it will have an effect.

Having said that, I think it is absolutely necessary that we practice our protected rights and I believe it is effective. Look at the civil rights era. People died for the cause. They didn't protest for 6 weeks and then bail because it wasn't working. They kept fighting for YEARS to change the way things are done. They truly understood the meaning of doing what it takes to get the job done.

Today's protests will only "get us somewhere" if those who are protesting continue and grow. And then, it won't be "free speech" that got the result, it will be the strong WILL of the people that brings the desired outcome. Free speech is the tool. It's up to the people to use it to get what they want.

Originally posted by boymonkey74
Iam all for free speech as long as it's done in a polite and respectful manner.

Harsh speech can turn people off, but free speech isn't limited by courtesy. Your statement doesn't really make sense to me. Either you support free speech (with the legal exceptions) or you don't. Place the courtesy limitation on it, and it's no longer free speech.

Good question indeed...

Originally posted by WarJohn
Does free speech get us anywhere these days? Why or why not?

Yes. Having a society that respects the right of individual free speech does help maintain a growing, rather than declining, culture. Take the OWS movement that has so many folks freaked out. The exercise of free speech by OWS has resulted in a cultural shift in discussion. Pre OWS, there was no significant discussion of income inequity; now it is common. That is primarily due to the expression of free speech, and often the "authorities"' reaction to it, by the various Occupy and related protests.

So, someone may or may not be comfortable with the "anywhere" we have gone, but to me it is clear that the exercise of free speech is having an impact.

And as for the U.S. constitution's free speech amendment being effective or non-effective in times of civil unrest... Do we rather need people to know they have free action as a natural right?

Do you really mean to say "free action"? Because free speech and free action are not the same thing. There is a very clear line between saying "I hates the (fill in hated group of choice)", which in the US we are free to do, and going out and harming members of (hated group). One is speech, one is action. Speech may be stupid, and offensive and even hateful, but speech is merely expression of thought, and does not do any harm.

A more fundamental question might be to ask if freedom of speech should even be considered as something that should "get us anywhere".

One thing I am continually impressed with is the effectiveness of the political propaganda machines. A significant portion of this propaganda is aimed directly at the erosion of individual freedoms in the US, by shifting public opinion towards thinking it is OK to restrict things like speech.

Freedoms are freedoms. They don't need to have a particular point in order to be respected. Freedoms are not "granted" by a government, or Constitution, even one as well-done as the US version. They are, instead, recognized by the more enlightened governments. And repressed by the less so.

Freedom of speech. Freedom to choose a religion. Freedom to choose to have no religion. Freedom to maintain the ability to defend one's self. Freedom to confront the government peacefully when they are screwing up. Freedom to act like a total ass.

And so on. If we pretend to defend "freedom" of one thing or another, then that means even when we may not like the manner in which a freedom is being expressed, we must still defend the freedom.

Didn't mean to write a book...

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Yes sorry It came out a little wrong, I will listen to anything anyone wants to say as long as its in a polite manner, it's just me, if someone shouts and swears and try's to insult people while doing it I switch off and miss their point.
True free speech is a myth tbh, talking about certain things can get you locked up and rightly so in some aspects.

And although I was making a little joke about ATS not having free speech, I once believed that the internet was the perfect tool to exercise our right to free speech but sadly it has not happened.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
And what exactly do you call labeling anyone who disagrees with you part of the "left" or "right"? It's the same silly thing my friend, plenty of people leaning towards the "right" are also open to helping those people come and stay LEGALLY. I honestly have not seen a single person advocating illegal immigration.

But see, simply calling them a "leftist" is exactly like you described, a weak method to pigeon hole them into a group they might not be a part of. It's an easy way to ignore any logical reasons they may have for their opinion, because they are a "leftist".

Primarily, the "you're a racist" card is played by those on the left. People having a political position is not the same as falsely labeling someone a racist.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
You are correct to say that some use "racism" as a shield to deflect away from any argument based on logic, but you can't deny a good portion of those posting here who are "100% against illegal immigration" are in fact racists and they continually go over the line.

Yep, it just HAS to be the majority. Most polls show that about 75% of Americans believe that illegal immigration is a problem and needs to be fixed in one way or another. That's an awful lot of racists in this country. It's amazing a black man like me isn't swinging from a tree somewhere, don't you think? I'll make sure to watch my back with all those racists running around.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
Don't like illegals, or don't like Mexicans at all? That's the key, "illegals" is now the safe word for these guys.

"Oh those lazy dirty illegals, learn to speak American"

Sure, there are some REAL racists in the mix, but the numbers are, from what I've seen, very small. And, as for learning English, it's a requirement for LEGAL immigrants. Why should ILLEGAL aliens have preferred treatment?

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
Etc etc. That's not a rally against illegal immigrants, that's pure racism using the term "illegal" to slip through the filters. Thankfully it seems these guys are in the minority, but sadly, they are extremely vocal.

Didn't you just say above "you can't deny a good portion of those posting here who are "100% against illegal immigration" are in fact racists" and now you're saying "Thankfully it seems these guys are in the minority". Which is it? I don't get your New Speak though. Illegal means "illegal". Undocumented does NOT mean "illegal". Not having documents is "undocumented". I'm "undocumented" when I forget my power point presentation. If I steal from my company, that's "illegal". They ARE "illegal aliens". Plain and simple, and it doesn't matter if they're from Mexico, China, England, Germany, or Nigeria. You come here ILLEGALLY, you are an "illegal alien". Period. Why do you think all illegals come from Mexico? That seems to be a generalization on your part.

The fact that you equate the word "illegal" to somehow being racist is truly scary. It is, indeed, New Speak. Remember, words mean what YOU say they mean, right? As the saying goes, calling an illegal alien an undocumented worker is like calling a rapist an undocumented husband.