Governor sounds death knell for executions

Originally posted by OneManArmy

...the putting of profit over people is the main reason the world is in the state of affairs it is these days.
Money over people destroys the rainforests, pollutes the oceans, pollutes the air and kills innocent people in the name of justice, only for them to be found innocent later. It sickens me to think people still condone the barbarity of capital punishment. And the argument that its for financial reasons just takes that sickness to new lows.

Agreed. Arguing in favor of execution as an economic matter is reprehensible.

We imprison people on laws that primarily serve to further corporate interests. Who pays for them? Certainly it is not the corporations, they have risen-up to make incarceration a big business paid for by our nation's most stellar socialist system that is revered by even the most strident conservatives. The number of our death row inmates is a mere handful when contrasted by our overall prison population, of which America leads the world. Surely there are some who are serving time locked-up that should be walking free.

Favor the death penalty or not it is deplorable to consider its merits in terms of economics.

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by Kryties

 

An alternative is to make sure that prison is not about anything but prison. No TV's, no athletic equipment, just hard labor. No social time. Work begins at 6am and ends at 6pm every day. Religous services are alloted one hour per week, Saturday or Sunday, after work is done. Books are limited to text books [including law] and religious texts of the prisoner's choice.
Refusing to work means isolation in a cell stripped of everything but a blanket with a reduced calorie diet for sustenance. The prisoner will be given the option of rejoining the work force on a weekly basis.

Or how about we get them to make clothing, appliances and other products that actually serve a use. Instead of just mentally torturing them. At least that way, when the goods are sold they can go towards paying the bill for these people to be punished. And not allow private interests that operate for their own profit to gain control of these prisons so that the money made can then be used to serve the communities, instead of the corporate interests. I say make them productive so the communities can reap the rewards. Then that brings new meaning to serving their time.

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro

Originally posted by OneManArmy

...the putting of profit over people is the main reason the world is in the state of affairs it is these days.
Money over people destroys the rainforests, pollutes the oceans, pollutes the air and kills innocent people in the name of justice, only for them to be found innocent later. It sickens me to think people still condone the barbarity of capital punishment. And the argument that its for financial reasons just takes that sickness to new lows.

Agreed. Arguing in favor of execution as an economic matter is reprehensible.

We imprison people on laws that primarily serve to further corporate interests. Who pays for them? Certainly it is not the corporations, they have risen-up to make incarceration a big business paid for by our nation's most stellar socialist system that is revered by even the most strident conservatives. The number of our death row inmates is a mere handful when contrasted by our overall prison population, of which America leads the world. Surely there are some who are serving time locked-up that should be walking free.

Favor the death penalty or not it is deplorable to consider its merits in terms of economics.

edit on 24-11-2011 by Erongaricuaro because: (no reason given)

Yes I also agree. And star for you too.

Originally posted by OneManArmy

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by Kryties

 

An alternative is to make sure that prison is not about anything but prison. No TV's, no athletic equipment, just hard labor. No social time. Work begins at 6am and ends at 6pm every day. Religous services are alloted one hour per week, Saturday or Sunday, after work is done. Books are limited to text books [including law] and religious texts of the prisoner's choice.
Refusing to work means isolation in a cell stripped of everything but a blanket with a reduced calorie diet for sustenance. The prisoner will be given the option of rejoining the work force on a weekly basis.

Or how about we get them to make clothing, appliances and other products that actually serve a use. Instead of just mentally torturing them. At least that way, when the goods are sold they can go towards paying the bill for these people to be punished. And not allow private interests that operate for their own profit to gain control of these prisons so that the money made can then be used to serve the communities, instead of the corporate interests. I say make them productive so the communities can reap the rewards. Then that brings new meaning to serving their time.

That is much more humane than Pteridine's suggestion though I would caution you both that it appears America's prison labor force is being viewed with delight by factions that now wish to further exploit that resource. Expect our lawmakers to kick it into overdrive the means to incarcerate more and increase that labor pool. Free society would not labor under those conditions. The elitist solution will be to eliminate free society. Soon American labor will be competing with the Chinese.

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro

Originally posted by OneManArmy

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by Kryties

 

An alternative is to make sure that prison is not about anything but prison. No TV's, no athletic equipment, just hard labor. No social time. Work begins at 6am and ends at 6pm every day. Religous services are alloted one hour per week, Saturday or Sunday, after work is done. Books are limited to text books [including law] and religious texts of the prisoner's choice.
Refusing to work means isolation in a cell stripped of everything but a blanket with a reduced calorie diet for sustenance. The prisoner will be given the option of rejoining the work force on a weekly basis.

Or how about we get them to make clothing, appliances and other products that actually serve a use. Instead of just mentally torturing them. At least that way, when the goods are sold they can go towards paying the bill for these people to be punished. And not allow private interests that operate for their own profit to gain control of these prisons so that the money made can then be used to serve the communities, instead of the corporate interests. I say make them productive so the communities can reap the rewards. Then that brings new meaning to serving their time.

That is much more humane than Pteridine's suggestion though I would caution you both that it appears America's prison labor force is being viewed with delight by factions that now wish to further exploit that resource. Expect our lawmakers to kick it into overdrive the means to incarcerate more and increase that labor pool. Free society would not labor under those conditions. The elitist solution will be to eliminate free society. Soon American labor will be competing with the Chinese.

Yes I agree, I already know the prison system is one of the most profitable "businesses" there is, which goes some way to explaining why the prison populations are soaring. This is why I suggested keeping the profits from it out of the hands of the private sector. The justice system is one that brings up many moral questions, and how those questions are addressed is on a knife edge, with a fine balance needed to keep the system from being abused.

reply to post by Erongaricuaro


Actually, I did not say what the prisoners should be making. If a dollar value was assigned to their crime to be paid to the victim, they could work to compensate the victim.
The idea of making useful items doesn't always work out. Not surprisingly, prisoners have been known to sabotage their products, reducing the perceived and actual value of their labor.

Originally posted by pteridine
Not surprisingly, prisoners have been known to sabotage their products, reducing the perceived and actual value of their labor.

Purely out of morbid interest, how does a prisoner 'sabotage' a license plate?

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by Erongaricuaro

 

Actually, I did not say what the prisoners should be making. If a dollar value was assigned to their crime to be paid to the victim, they could work to compensate the victim.
The idea of making useful items doesn't always work out. Not surprisingly, prisoners have been known to sabotage their products, reducing the perceived and actual value of their labor.

Interesting point, but isnt that why we have quality control?
I see a flaw in compensating the victims also, you could have people intentionally getting people locked up so they can profit from it. And the same flaw applies to my scenario, where the state can intentionally get people locked up to get the local community improvements made.
This is why I say this subject is really on a knife edge and great care should be taken when applying anything in law.

You do have a valid argument, and it sounds like you more than just disagree with the death penalty. I gave you a star just for your strong conviction. Did something happen to you personally to help sway you in this choice/ strong opinion? I however, disagree with your opinion, and do believe in the death penalty. I do believe that the system for the death penalty state to state is broken. There are people out there who commit such horrible atrocities that there really is no room left for them in society. What are we supposed to do with them? Keep using tax payers money to feed and house them? Should executing some prisoners cost the state millions of dollars per year? It certainly shouldn't. there is nothing honorable in capitalizing on death. But, my opinion still stands, and there are some people in this world who are worthless fleshbags, and need to be put down.

reply to post by Kryties


I'd much rather get the death penalty then rot in prison for the rest of my life.

Just saying.

Originally posted by gunshooter
You do have a valid argument, and it sounds like you more than just disagree with the death penalty. I gave you a star just for your strong conviction. Did something happen to you personally to help sway you in this choice/ strong opinion? I however, disagree with your opinion, and do believe in the death penalty. I do believe that the system for the death penalty state to state is broken. There are people out there who commit such horrible atrocities that there really is no room left for them in society. What are we supposed to do with them? Keep using tax payers money to feed and house them? Should executing some prisoners cost the state millions of dollars per year? It certainly shouldn't. there is nothing honorable in capitalizing on death. But, my opinion still stands, and there are some people in this world who are worthless fleshbags, and need to be put down.

My biggest problem with the death sentence is the failure of the judicial system to get it right every time.
Time after time cases of set ups and flawed evidence get innocent people convicted of crimes they never committed.
Some crimes are truly awful, I do not dispute that, but because of the failure of the system to get it right every time then killing innocent people is just as bad as the criminals.

Originally posted by Anoynymoose
reply to post by Kryties

 

I'd much rather get the death penalty then rot in prison for the rest of my life.

Just saying.

Even if you were innocent?

Originally posted by Kryties

Originally posted by pteridine
Not surprisingly, prisoners have been known to sabotage their products, reducing the perceived and actual value of their labor.

Purely out of morbid interest, how does a prisoner 'sabotage' a license plate?

The license plate market is limited. All they can do for fun is to make duplicate plates.
The suggestion was made that prisoners make appliances or some other finished goods. I once had a pair of issue work boots made in a prison workshop. A small tack was driven through the insole and the outersole was sewed over it. Desks and furniture had joints that had no glue or very little glue fell apart after a while.
We didn't buy prison products after the first batch.

reply to post by OneManArmy


Isn't every criminal out there innocent?

Originally posted by catwhoknowsplusone
reply to post by Kryties

 

Yes,

So true.

I just wondered how you can survive in this world without some belief in a better place.

I can't.

It's easy, we need not rely on an invisible God for us to have morals. Our parents taught us right from wrong, we pursue that level of morality. God has no say in this nor does he have complete influence.

Being inherently good is better then being good to appease God. Appeasing anyone, anything, is slavery. Either your righteous because it's what you want, or your righteous cause it's what your told to do.

I know your righteous cause your told to do it. For that your one step below the rest of us who do it because we know it's the right thing to do inherently. Godless people living in fear need God's the rest of us spend time acting out their morals without preaching it.

Action speaks louder then any words you will speak, lead by example.

Originally posted by Anoynymoose
reply to post by OneManArmy

 

Isn't every criminal out there innocent?

Come on man really? Of course not.
Only inside, they are all "innocent" even the guilty.
Plea bargaining has helped to make the USA judicial system one of the most corrupt in the western world.
But I suppose all police are the most honest people in the world? Especially when it comes to minorities right?
Not to mention the parole system,which also applies here in the UK where you have show remorse ie admit to a crime you might not even have committed just to be even considered for parole.
One program my mum used to watch a lot as I was growing up was "Rough Justice" I also started to watch it and it was all about people being found guilty of crimes they never committed, due to planted evidence and corruption, some people having been locked up for more than 20 years, only to be proven innocent later by things like DNA evidence or new evidence coming to light. At least here in the UK we dont have the death penalty anymore, otherwise they all would have been murdered by execution, at least most were able to see the light of day once again.
Some were executed when we did have capital punishment and later posthumously pardoned, but eventually we had the common sense to realise that this barbaric practice had no place in a civilised society.

kudos to this governor for making such a difficult decision.
the ramifications yet unknown will likely be miniscule given the 80+% success ratio of The Innocence Project.

I am not inferring that 80% of the convictions are erred, however, of the cases TIP accepts, that's a fantastic success rate and alludes to grave injustices openly practiced within our 'justice system'. btw, No legitimate conviction ratio can compare or ever has.

i agree that the system is flawed from top to bottom and although i do believe the death penalty is both feasible and a necessary evil, i do wish there was a better system to administer such a final punishment.

reply to post by Pokoia

There is evidence out there that the death penalty is not a good deterrent and, additionally, it's expensive. All one has to do is google it.

Here is one example of something I googled:
www.foxnews.com ...

I've seen other links before and references from newspapers.

Keep the costs down and prove it's a deterrent. Don't just do it because it makes you feel good. That might have worked in the past, but it doesn't work now. The costs are too high.

reply to post by Honor93

Agreed. If even one innocent man has been put to death by the State, that is more than enough grounds to question the entire death penalty system as a whole. Unfortunately, that one man is actually many and yet more are being put to death as we speak.

Something is very, very wrong here.

Originally posted by supine

Originally posted by Kryties

My hope is that this Governor of Oregon begins preparations to have them re-sentenced to life imprisonment. I would bet on the fact a few of them would be found innocent as well - imagine that, an innocent man sitting on death row with barbarians calling for his execution.....

And who is going to pay for that? My goodness, you are asking for a huge blank check to be written here at the expense of a lot of tax payers. I wouldn't doubt that some of these people who continually say, "but I'm innocent," might be, but who should foot the bill?

Personally I believe murdering someone who murdered someone is wrong on every conceivable level and those that support and uphold the death penalty are barbarians living in the dark ages.

But that's just MY belief, and not a religious one either.

Ok, how about you turn your house into a prison for people who have their sentence commuted to life, and foot the bill?

That can be a life long committment for you!

edit on 24-11-2011 by supine because: add

Here you go. As of right now there approximately 37 of them inmates on death row in Oregon. Can you afford to feed, clothe and house them?

[url=http://www.oregon.gov...]http://www.oregon.gov/DOC/PUBAFF/cap_punishment/cap_punishment.shtml[ /url]

I'm sure movie night will be pleasant. Sitting around eating popcorn with 37 inmates convicted of at least aggravated murder!

edit on 24-11-2011 by supine because: add

Oh dear! Unpleasantness during movie night!? Heavens no! Paying precious money to feed and house a human being who may or may not be guilty? Hell no! There's over a thousand other convicts being fed and housed, but its those pesky 37 extra are gonna just cost too much! Nevermind that your economic argument is null and void, and a bit of unpleasantness amongst the prison population is a drop in the friggin bucket...

Admit it, you're a bloodthirsty Satan worshipping reptilian shapeshifter! I'm serious, that's the only excuse I could feel comfortable with right now...

It sickens me that this thread doesn't have a thousand flags... We've been infiltrated by bloodsucking heartless whatevers it is I said before...

ok guys, hold up here a moment ... i'm having a really hard time accepting that the economic argument is null or void, inappropriate or even unimportant.
how can any of you say such when the "death industry" is certainly booming.
if dealing with death was dishonorable, why do so many volunteer to do it?
from the executioners to the directors to the drivers ... many ppl are employed because death is an industry.

ever priced funeral/internment arrangements? cremations ?? it certainly drains the finances.
why would forced executions be any different?
is it because the taxpayers pay for it?
is it because the cost is so extreme, ppl don't want to know what it's costing them?
is it because many Americans who favor the death penalty would donate bullets and reduce the costs immensely?

no seriously, human or not, guilty or not isn't the issue when discussing costs. either way, life in prison or execution, we pay for it ... shouldn't we at least discuss it ??

and, on the other side of the fence, look at the successes of the Innocence Project ... all of those released had to be re-tried (at taxpayer expense) ... so, in the cases where corruption and misleading the court was the course of business, what happened to the guilty parties who convicted this innocent ???
why are we still paying for them to be employed at all ??
[for those who don't know, in the US, prosecutors are employed by the State and paid via taxpayer funding]
and the experts they call are also paid by us, as are the makeovers for the criminals (each time they are physically present in the courtroom) example

considering the above, i'd prefer to pay for the innocent for as long as he/she is wrongfully accused and/or convicted mischievously. wouldn't you?