OWS: ATS has your opinion changed?

Originally posted by nenothtu

Fascism is collectivist, same as communism and socialism. The very symbol of fascism, the fasces, is illustrative of that. A bundle of sticks, all bound together. There are those who would have us believe otherwise, that fascism is the logical development of capitalism, but it simply ain't so. What we have now economically isn't capitalist, regardless of claims made. It appears in most respects to be some monstrous hybrid.

I believe all forms of government are considered collectivist. Im a collectivist when it comes to helping the poor and suffering and an anarchist when it comes to relating to all oppressive govts, be they communist, fascist or whatever. When they screw with popular uprisings because they know that these uprisings once in power wont act as a rubber stamp agent for whatever money making operations and natural resource destruction schemes they've got brewing then they screw with me. Thats when my collectivism comes out for all to see. Its kinda like what you talk about where someone has to protect the honest sheep. Only its not just talk to me. Its what I do.

Anyway, concerning the definition of collectivism Wiki agrees for what thats worth

Collectivism is any philosophic, political, economic or social outlook that emphasizes the interdependence of every human in some collective group and the priority of group goals over individual goals. Collectivists usually focus on community, society, or nation. Collectivism has been widely used to refer to a number of different political, economic and educational philosophies, ranging from communalism and democracy to totalitarian nationalism.

Corporatism refers to a form of collectivism that views the whole as being greater than the sum of its individual parts, and gives priority to group rights over individual rights.

Who is a "freedom fighter"? The folks who insist that they can tell you how to live, or the lone guy who tells them to piss off, he'll live any damned way he pleases?

I dont believe either comes even close to being a freedom fighter. Like Ive tried to get across above, there are people in this world who have dedicated their lives to fighting corrupt governments of all kinds. I funneled information in and out of Russia in the 80s, and like to think I played my part in the fall. I worked with Chinese dissidents and fought the US governments response to the massacre at Tiananmen Square. These dissidents only wanted a voice in their governments decision making process, you know, those silly things democracy and justice. And the US government saw too it that it didnt happen. The same scene has been repeated over and over again. People ask for freedom from an oppressive government, and the US will block that freedom movement if it conflicts with corporate interests.

But you cant stop real freedom fighters, because they are fighting for real freedom for everyone. They will go to the streets. And they will be beaten, and tortured, and killed. And more will come back. And the same thing happens again. But even more come again. Those are real freedom fighters. The David in 'David and Goliath'. And from the looks of the way this thread is going Id say that most of you dont have a clue what Im talking about, so I gotta say adios to this thread. Im too old and have fought too hard to be wasting time.

Ill start a thread soon that tries to understand and define the Phoenix Rising Movement.

And fuk semantics, and who defines something how. Words are BS. Never forget that the people demanding liberation were gunned down by the People's Liberation Army.

reply to post by zworld

Great post, I personally didnt have fascism down as collectivist. But I may stand corrected.
I look forward to the Phoenix Rising post.

Originally posted by neo96
No my opinion hasn't change and will never change the simple fact OWS went after the wrong people people can argue til their blue in their face and camp out and "protest" their little hearts out but the simple fact is its been over 2 months and what have they accomplished?

Absolutely nothing and yep some of their defenders have earned my utter contempt which are nothing but ideologues others not so much.

Honestly they to rethink what they want and how they want to get their because of all the "Events" that have happened they are not doing themselves or anyone else any "favors".

edit on 22-11-2011 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

How is this for a "favor"

Read it. The New Common Sense

Originally posted by sonnny1
I dont mind protesting either. Camping out is a whole other story.
OWS is a worldwide phenomena!(so the supporters say)
You wont have to pack your bags.........

Yeah, but Wallstreet is so far away and so American. We are enjoying this:

reply to post by Siddharta



Well I'm glad you cleared that up.

Yeah, I totally see your point

Originally posted by Siddharta

Originally posted by sonnny1
I dont mind protesting either. Camping out is a whole other story.
OWS is a worldwide phenomena!(so the supporters say)
You wont have to pack your bags.........

Yeah, but Wallstreet is so far away and so American. We are enjoying this:

Ironic,One liner and a picture..........



Suffice to say OWS has NO Leadership that they care to support or acknowledge.

Cold weather,and elements will drive OWS into an afterthought this winter.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I must admit, I once was an avid supporter, but, OWS made too many mistakes which they never felt the need to correct.

1. One of them is this: If you're going to have a "leaderless movement," then it is important for EVERY SINGLE PARTICIPATING MEMBER to be educated on EVERY aspect of the factors that contribute to the movement, and why they are there supporting it. Otherwise, your movement looks foolish if one cannot clearly articulate their reasons for protest.

2. The movement allowed too many hands to contribute which began to lead to political motivations outside of the grievances that were being listed.

3. George Soros CLEARLY co-opted the movement

4. Barack Obama ended up using it as a platform for re-election while sympathizing with the supposed "cause."

5. The Vatican used it as a method for creating a new economy, of which OWS people TRIED to adopt.

6. The movement lost its overall sight of corralling ALL of the people responsible as Iceland did. They began to focus ENTIRELY on Wall St. while forgetting that the politicians are the people who litigated Wall Street's ability to rob the American people. -Both sides need to be weeded out, and just "getting money out of politics ain't going to cut it, because they will just re-litigate their way back into the system. -YOU NEED TO IMPRISON THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM, which are the CEO's, bankers, and EVERY SINGLE POLITICIAN who enabled their actions.

7. OWS started getting violent in certain cities. Not all of them. Oakland was a prime example of how things completely got out of control. Whether supporters would like to agree or not does NOT mean much to me.

8. Most of the movements lost their LOCAL appeal, which is working to create economies on the local level which help to sustain a real way of living. The one here in Bloomington, Indiana is composed of 75% homeless people who know nothing of the cause at all. And the students who are participating are not leveraging their ability to network, they're not coming up with economic strategies for a more fair system, and they're not growing in numbers. In fact, it merely looks as if they're all just having a wonderful party of make-believe and fantasy. There's literally NO NEED FOR THEM TO BE THERE. What's worse is that they can't agree about anything AT ALL. How the hell do you expect for politicians to do better at something that you can't even prove that you can do for yourself? -That's right, politics isn't necessarily easy, but, you have to give the politicians credit on this one, they can at least come together long enough to empower themselves OVER US.

9. The worst part is the Movement's inability to discern friend from foe. They constantly let elected officials, politicians, and celebrities come in and speak on their behalves when these are the VERY PEOPLE WHO HAVE SCREWED THINGS UP TO AN UNREPARABLE DEGREE. -Do you really think it means SO MUCH to have a police officer speak on your behalves when these are the very people beating, tazing, and jailing us at record paces? It absolutely amazes me...they'll create videos with celebrities coming in, demonstrating their pride of having someone of "influence" represent their cause. -HOW FOOLISH CAN YOU GUYS BE? THIS IS HOW THEY INFILTRATE YOU, YET, YOU TOTE IT WITH PRIDE AS THEY SPEAK ALL THE WORDS THAT YOU WANT TO HEAR. Even worse, some of these people still want to re-elect OBAMA.

Have they lost their minds? Have they not studied or THOUGHT ABOUT ANYTHING??? Obama IS the guy that made sure it that the whole process was accelerated. Even worse, they'll actually petition Obama to create change against the very laws that HE PUSHED THROUGH. That's literally like me walking up to Al Capone and politely asking him to drop the prices on liquor so that it becomes, "More fair" for everyone else. -It takes not only a very NAIVE individual to do something so ridiculous, but, it is indicative of how ignorant many of the protesters are to the cause of their present situation. -Most of them have studied NOTHING.-

10. The movement files for corporate, non-profit status...how ironic. Then certain cells of the movement like Oakland decides to deposit their money into one of the very banks they were protesting. -How does that make the movement look?
sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Occupy Oakland deposits 20,000 into Wells Fargo (Facepalm)
-After of which, all sorts of well-produced commercials and other such items of FRANCHISE start appearing, as the amount of money from sources like Moveon(dot)org and other affiliations begin to flow.

OWS has lost sight of its purpose. People in Egypt aren't turning this into a movie, they're fighting for their LIVES, just like in other portions of the world. Its time to grow up and do the responsible thing. End the two-party system which keeps us divided and ENSLAVED and imprison the guilty. Which includes, Obama, McCain, Bush (both of them), Clinton (both of them), the Senate, Congress, and the Judicial branches who empowered these laws. Then after that, we get rid of all of the Federal Laws and Departments which enact in very illegal manners. (CIA, DEA, FBI, NSA, NASA, ATF, etc)

Until we do the right thing, we're going to be sitting in a stagnant position without leverage...

evolvedministry.wordpress.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">38+ Reasons to Dump Obama

reply to post by SLAYER69


Too bad, that you did not find it as funny as I did.

Well, the message was, we here in Europe are busy with a lot of other demonstrations. "Wallstreet" really is not in our neighbourhood. We are busy with things like Stuttgart21 and the Castor transports (where the foto was from).

Both are protests which have been going on for some time and in both even police people are sad, that they have to play their role, although they would like to be on the other side of the fence - as they claimed publicly.

Maybe the USA is not ready for democracy yet. And even not for humour.

Originally posted by Destiny777

 

1. I agree. But keep in mind, its hard to educate people on what we are doing, when you are doing it between raids and rounds of tear gas.

2. We are still non political. Fail

3. George Soros clearly TRIED to co-opt the movement. Through DreamOn.org in fact. We caught on to it pretty quick. Soros failed

4. Barack Obama is just as guilty as the rest of washington and wall st. Hell, he hired half of goldman sachs after the bailouts. Also, DHS/FBI/DoD involvement (ive seen it with my own eyes) is pretty telling that he does not support us, as we do not support his crooked ways.

5. lol.. just lol

6. you must have missed the new common sense. Read the whole thing, i know its long, but us uneducated tent living hippie drug addicts put a lot of time and effort in to this one. I think its the droid you have been looking for.

7. hahahahaha. I am part of Oakland. I still maintain, had the police not fired off rounds of tear gas at us, it would have stayed a peaceful protest. After the 2nd round of tear gas, yes, a few people got mad and started to throw rocks and bottles. And if you are talking about the "violence" on Nov. 2nd, I have a great article for you to read here. please know what you are talking about, before speaking on it. again. I was there.

8. Why are the homeless there instead of in shelters? I have personally seen homeless directed to the OWS protests sites instead of to city facilities and shelters. Sorry that Occupy Bloomington isnt all you want it to be. Have you thought about using your voice to help shape their message, or offer any advice to them?

9. LOL you must hate Obama quite a bit. Let me spell this out for you once. We dont support Obama, as he has let the DHS/FBI/DoD crack down on us. I have been tear gassed by this administration. How about you? Also, Solyndra, Siga, Fast and Furious, Hiring Goldman Sachs as advisors. Seriously, lay off the Limbaugh Koolaid.

10. I agree with you there. I was one of the people who voted NO. Unfortunately, not everyone agreed with me. The money that was deposited in Wells Fargo, however, was there temporarily. It was put in an attorneys account that was already set up so that there would be access to the money to bail people out of jail who were currently in jail. The money has been moved to a local credit union. Personally,I am still a bit pissed that it ever went to wells fargo.

reply to post by Vizzle


I'm not for sure what you were LOL'ing at number 5 for. It happened...Where you've been in all of this, I'm not sure. Although, I am having a good laugh at the fact that you're a part of the "movement" and was not aware of this.
www.americanprogress.org...
www.businessinsider.com...
www.huffingtonpost.com...

Then you ask me, why don't I help and provide a voice in my hometown for "The Movement." Sigh...I provided them ALL of their information, their "propaganda," strategies on how to implement new local economies, I even opened the doorways to Indiana University for them. Believe me, I am way ahead of you in the plotting stage of how I placed my pieces.

Soros DID, buy out much of the movement. Many of their donations came from Moveon.org who paid for their glossy commercials and advertising. In fact, I have LOADS of emails from Moveon.org attempting to get me to donate to OWS and purchase all sorts of franchised items.

I'm not even a member of their stupid site: I don't know if you'll be able to view that if you're not an added-friend, but, I set it up to "public."

www.facebook.com...#!/photo.php?fbid=2400891675150&set=a.2211139411462.115714.1636817674&type=1&theater" target='_blank' class='tabOff'/>

So, I understand that you're here to defend your cause, but, it wouldn't hurt you to know a bit more about it before responding. This is the problem that I was highlighting in the first place.

reply to post by Destiny777


Can you please tell me

5. The Vatican used it as a method for creating a new economy, of which OWS people TRIED to adopt.

how ows tried to adopt the vaticans method for creating a new economy? Citation, as the three articles you have posted do not support your claim. Thanks.

Yes. We know all about MoveOn.org, and RebuildTheDream.org, which have been ATTEMPTING to co-opt the movement. They have also been placing paid obama supporters at different events to try make it look like OWS is an "Obama Movement". Trust me, a lot of us are laughing at George Soros because of his weak attempt to co-opt the movement for Obama's political gain. Again, I will point you to the fact that DHS/FBI/DoD, and even people in Blackwater shirts have been spotted at OWS events on both the east and west coast. Also, again, remember Solyndra, Siga, Fast and Furious. This is the kind of stuff we are trying to stop.

Why should we support 1. someone who does not support OWS (sorry, lip service doesnt count) 2. someone who is just as guilty as the rest of his buddies with the very corruption we are trying to fight.

So what you are implying is that we havent noticed Soros/moveon/rebuildthedream attempting to co-opt. Seriously. You should see some of the email lists I am on, and how outspoken and pissed people are because of it. Remember, most of those emails are aimed at the same kind of people that follow fox news, just on the other side of the political spectrum.

To add: I know quite a bit about my movement, and why i am out there on the streets protesting.

reply to post by Vizzle


Look, I've already provided for you what I intend to provide. Since I highly doubt that you were even aware that a new global economy was even already mapped out by those in power, its very difficult for me to even go further. (I am not saying this as an insult, I am pointing out what I have observed)

There are all sorts of articles out there which support the statement that I made. As it is, I do all sorts of research for Facebook, youtube, ATS, Godlikeproductions, and a number of other websites, and news sources. Truly, I'm a busy guy, therefore, I put research into the things that I am working with for that day, and nothing more. Since I offer my services for free BY CHOICE and don't get paid for my valuable time, I am hard pressed to do any more research for something that you'll probably disavow out of your own preconceived beliefs about the movement.

I can tell you this though. OWS WILL BE USED as a method to instill the New Global Economy if Obama is not REMOVED and the two-party system NOT replaced (Ron Paul will fail us purposely as well). This has been the agenda all along. And unless Americans are willing to do what it takes to end this, the New Global Economy will be far more brutal than the one that we're protesting now. The fact is, you don't ask the same people who screwed it up to be the ones to fix it. That was our first mistake, and then we GAVE THEM MORE MONEY TO BLOW. They need to be ARRESTED.

Pussy footing around with protests only gives them more time to plan our demise...
en.unpacampaign.org...
www.infowars.com...

And...you say that I don't "Support" this movement...Well, anymore, you're right. However, until you've done nearly 8 hours of research a day, putting together information, and volunteering your time for rides, food, and networking, then you might not understand my frustration. Not to mention after the research, I have to put all the info together, form my blogs, and then post to several sites. I also was a part of the many DONATIONS that OWS, LA, and Bloomington received. So please, lets not compare the time that we all have donated to make this work.

Originally posted by Destiny777
reply to post by Vizzle

 

Look, I've already provided for you what I intend to provide. Since I highly doubt that you were even aware that a new global economy was even already mapped out by those in power, its very difficult for me to even go further. (I am not saying this as an insult, I am pointing out what I have observed)

There are all sorts of articles out there which support the statement that I made. As it is, I do all sorts of research for Facebook, youtube, ATS, Godlikeproductions, and a number of other websites, and news sources. Truly, I'm a busy guy, therefore, I put research into the things that I am working with for that day, and nothing more. Since I offer my services for free BY CHOICE and don't get paid for my valuable time, I am hard pressed to do any more research for something that you'll probably disavow out of your own preconceived beliefs about the movement.

I can tell you this though. OWS WILL BE USED as a method to instill the New Global Economy if Obama is not REMOVED and the two-party system NOT replaced (Ron Paul will fail us purposely as well). This has been the agenda all along. And unless Americans are willing to do what it takes to end this, the New Global Economy will be far more brutal than the one that we're protesting now. The fact is, you don't ask the same people who screwed it up to be the ones to fix it. That was our first mistake, and then we GAVE THEM MORE MONEY TO BLOW. They need to be ARRESTED.

Pussy footing around with protests only gives them more time to plan our demise...
en.unpacampaign.org...
www.infowars.com...

edit on 26-11-2011 by Destiny777 because: to add

Trust me, I am more well versed in this than you would think.

Lucas Papademos, named new Greek Prime Minister was former head of Greece's Central Bank, where he worked closely with Goldman Sachs to help the Greek government mask the true extent of its deficit.

Mario Monti was an international adviser to Goldman Sachs from 2005 until his nomination to lead the Italian government. He also worked closely with Goldman Sachs to reduce the apparent size of Italian government debt.

The moves are already being made on the world stage. What would you suggest we do? Sit at home and do nothing, or use our voice to express our outrage at the BS that continues to go on that is powered by the banking cartels and big business. I mean, just look at SOPA. Welcome America, to the Great FireWall of China. Like I said, I am well versed in what you speak. The noose is going over our head, you can either speak out against it, or you can let them hang you. I dont know about you, but I will not go silently.

Originally posted by Siddharta

Maybe the USA is not ready for democracy yet.

With any luck at all, the US will NEVER be ready for democracy. I'm rather partial to the system that the founders put in place as a safeguard against democracy, and think that we really maybe ought to consider getting back to it sometime soon, before democracy destroys us all in an amorphous blend of blistering sameness and slavery to the dictatorship of the proletariat, A.K.A. the tyranny of the masses.

Perhaps you can understand my position when considering that I will STILL be a minority in your Brave New World, and am not in the least eager to have the safeguards removed that have protected minorities from the tyranny of the majority thus far.

reply to post by Destiny777


Godlikeproductions? lol
I can tell you straight up and feel free to check my post history to verify the truth of what I'm saying. If Occupy was a re-election effort it has failed and failed hard. Occupy has helped open my eyes to the truth that ALL of Washington is guilty of selling out the American People and that's just the tip of crime list. Obama has let us down, I spent months since my first coming to ATS defending Obama and making justifications in my head...I can't do it anymore, I will only be voting for him because he the lesser failure IMO. I haven't talked to one person having to do with Occupy that doesn't feel the same and he's being called to task by Occupy. If you want the truth about Occupy talk to people involved. Not rant jockey or media whore is ever going to tell you the truth about anything but especially not a movement that wants to flush the rats out of the sewers.

reply to post by nenothtu


Your language sounds very poetic to me as a none native speaker. Nevertheless it doesn't make any sense to me. Are you saying you are an anarchist? So am I for many Americans, but I still think social life is very important to all of us.

We need to talk to each other and see what others think. That's why I am talking to you. We should not try to find antagonisms between each other, but rather equality. We are the same anyway. If we like it or not.

reply to post by Siddharta


No, I'm not really an anarchist. I'm an individualist - I see value in interactions and associating with others, discourse and exchange of ideas, cooperative effort towards a common goal, but when those others start trying to dictate terms to me on how my life will be, at that point we must part company.

A social life IS important, perhaps not quite as important for me as others, but certainly not non-existent. I do, however, tend to separate the social and the political, just as I separate the social and the religious.

I was much closer to being an anarchist when I was younger, but that was just a function of being extremely anti-authoritarian, more than an approach to true anarchism. As I got older, I could see a need for some degree of government, but not the pervasive, multi-tentacled beast we have today which passes for government. If we don't keep government within set boundaries, it will most certainly attempt to keep US within strict boundaries, as has been shown time after time.

All forms of collectivism tend towards that totalitarian sort of state. It's always "for the common good", or it's "for the children", or it's "to keep order", or it's "to insure equality" or any other number of excuses, but the end result is an overbearing state and a fearful populace, when the situation really ought to be the other way around.

Perhaps the saddest part is that I have met people who grew up in those sorts of conditions, who had never known another way, who didn't fully realize how fearful they had been until after they got away from those kind of political systems.

I don't want that for my children, my grand children, or my great grand children, which is why I oppose every attempt at collectivization that I encounter, whether it's trade unions or a full blown political movement. Masses of people dictating how individuals must live, micromanaging lives in accordance with THEIR terms, crushes individuality and liberty like a bug under a boot heel. It makes of the individual something less than fully human, a cog in a machine, just a part of a whole which may be heading in a direction that individual doesn't want to travel.

Creeping collectivization is why I opposed the bailouts under both Bush and Obama - it's not my place to render artificial life support to a company in which I hold no stake. There is no such thing as "too big to fail", and it is a travesty of justice to expect taxpayers to prop up companies being driven into a ditch by incompetent executives. That would be the place of the stakeholders to repair, not the public at large,

Creeping collectivization is why I am opposing the so-called "Health Care" agenda. It's not the place of the public at large (as claimed by the government - remember what I said about "excuses" above) to dictate what I must buy, nor is it their place to keep me on artificial life support should I choose wrong.

Creeping collectivization is why I am opposed to the push for democracy. There is no reason at all that 51 percent of a population should be able to vote away the rights of 49 percent of that same population. It's only more tragic when 89% votes away the rights of 11%. The US is not,and never has been, nor was it ever intended to be, a democracy. The system put in place had a system of checks and balances which did away with the injustice inherent in a majority shackling a minority, and slowly over time those safeguards have been dissolved, to the point that we now have this mess - and yet people push onward, clamoring for democracy. Perhaps they don't realize that at some point, they will ALL be in one minority or another, and the rest will place those shackles on THEM.

Democracy is nothing more than another form of socialism, a version of collectivization, in a term more palatable to American ears so that they don't fully understand what is at stake. I will oppose it until I draw my last breath, and I suspect my progeny will oppose it long after I'm gone.

Originally posted by Vizzle

Originally posted by Destiny777
reply to post by Vizzle

 

Look, I've already provided for you what I intend to provide. Since I highly doubt that you were even aware that a new global economy was even already mapped out by those in power, its very difficult for me to even go further. (I am not saying this as an insult, I am pointing out what I have observed)

There are all sorts of articles out there which support the statement that I made. As it is, I do all sorts of research for Facebook, youtube, ATS, Godlikeproductions, and a number of other websites, and news sources. Truly, I'm a busy guy, therefore, I put research into the things that I am working with for that day, and nothing more. Since I offer my services for free BY CHOICE and don't get paid for my valuable time, I am hard pressed to do any more research for something that you'll probably disavow out of your own preconceived beliefs about the movement.

I can tell you this though. OWS WILL BE USED as a method to instill the New Global Economy if Obama is not REMOVED and the two-party system NOT replaced (Ron Paul will fail us purposely as well). This has been the agenda all along. And unless Americans are willing to do what it takes to end this, the New Global Economy will be far more brutal than the one that we're protesting now. The fact is, you don't ask the same people who screwed it up to be the ones to fix it. That was our first mistake, and then we GAVE THEM MORE MONEY TO BLOW. They need to be ARRESTED.

Pussy footing around with protests only gives them more time to plan our demise...
en.unpacampaign.org...
www.infowars.com...

edit on 26-11-2011 by Destiny777 because: to add

Trust me, I am more well versed in this than you would think.

Lucas Papademos, named new Greek Prime Minister was former head of Greece's Central Bank, where he worked closely with Goldman Sachs to help the Greek government mask the true extent of its deficit.

Mario Monti was an international adviser to Goldman Sachs from 2005 until his nomination to lead the Italian government. He also worked closely with Goldman Sachs to reduce the apparent size of Italian government debt.

The moves are already being made on the world stage. What would you suggest we do? Sit at home and do nothing, or use our voice to express our outrage at the BS that continues to go on that is powered by the banking cartels and big business. I mean, just look at SOPA. Welcome America, to the Great FireWall of China. Like I said, I am well versed in what you speak. The noose is going over our head, you can either speak out against it, or you can let them hang you. I dont know about you, but I will not go silently.

I believe I already made my suggestion which is this...IMPRISON the bankers, CEO's, and every politician affiliated with the collapse. Iceland protested just long enough to figure out that nothing was going to change until they took DIRECT action. Therefore, they organized, brought forth evidence and charges against the bankers and politicians, and then they put the culprits into JAIL.

We already have the Audit on the Federal Reserve (HARD EVIDENCE) which outlines blatant criminal activity on paper and recognized by the Federal Government itself as criminal; yet, NO ONE has even suggested jailing them. And, if you're waiting for the system that designed the collapse to jail those that they purposely put into power and choose to protect, then, you're going to be waiting a VERY long time for the change you are protesting for. As long as people are outside with picket signs, they're not INSIDE with handcuffs.