Americans. How can you stand not having proper public health?

Money is the root of all evil, so true huh? We all know the drug companies pay off our government. And yes we do elect them but in reality no one runs that is truly honest. The people that always should be a president or senator always say they couldn't lie to people en masse like that, etc... So sad but true.

Originally posted by TheOtaku
The government really has no obligation to, even in extreme cases. If they can do it without waiting lists and taxes going higher go for it. But otherwise I like having the million dollar coverage I have right now.

It doesn't really take too much imagination to justify the gov't intervening in the system and taking it over. First and foremost, it is throwing alot of money into the system now...from many different directions. Would the system hold it's own if the gov't decided to pull this money from it? I'm not so sure it could....definately wouldn't be able to pay those ceos and managers at blue cross blue shield those outrageous salaries anymore I bet!! The doctors, hospitals staff, and even those coe's decided to sell their souls for those nice salaries!!! So the fees keep going up, as everyone, including the lawyers cash in! and this makes more and more people in need of assistance from the gov't..and all the others dependent on the insurance companies..and it is now beginning to put too much strain on the gov't, or should I say more of a strain that it wants to deal with. Considering the amount of dependency the industry now has on the government, well, it is only natural for it to lead to more and more control of the system.

And, then there is the matter of the war on terror, the threat of biological and chemical weapons and the matter of just how long would we want some manufactured germ to circulate through our society before we luck out and it happens to hit upon someone who is insured and more eager to go to the doctor.....tell ya what...if it hits me, they won't know aboiut it until I am dead and then only if they take the time to look for a cause of death.
So, there is two valid reasons, in my opinion, for socialized medicine...

In plain simple words, our freedom and equality came with alot of responsibility.. maybe we just have ignored that responsibility too long....thrown too much into the realm of goverment.
People have the responsibility of providing for themselves.....there is no freedom unless they do.
Employers have the responsibility to deal fairly with their employees and provide them with the means to meet their needs...
And, the merchants and those who provide the necessities of life also have the responsibility to keep them affordable for the vaste majority of the masses.
And, they all have the responsibility to obey the laws of the country. The fraud in this system is outrageous!!!
And, well, I tend to believe that the gov't needs to go one way or the other on this one...either socialize the system and get it under control and stabilized enough to be able to hold it's own. Or it needs to just pull ALL taxpeyers money out of the system and let it adjust to not having it. In the meantime, I will just be outside harvesting the mullin, the st. john's wort, ect... and use what I can afford! ummm....wonder how effective echinaciea would be on smallpox....

Originally posted by TheOtaku
Money is the root of all evil, so true huh? We all know the drug companies pay off our government. And yes we do elect them but in reality no one runs that is truly honest. The people that always should be a president or senator always say they couldn't lie to people en masse like that, etc... So sad but true.

I understand you and agree.

Corruption lays in the nature of mankind a that applies to the political systems around the world. I guess the absolute root of evil is simply the primitive selfishness of humanity.

So basically most of you are saying that you cannot comprehend a universal public health care system and do don't want one and it would be terrible anyway.

How wrongheaded.

[edit on 30-9-2004 by joan12]

Joan12,

It does make me angry. I plan on leaving the USA as soon as I can afford it.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
Joan12,

It does make me angry. I plan on leaving the USA as soon as I can afford it.

Yeah I know how you feel. Same gose for me.

The United States has medicare, medicaid and a host of public hospitals available to the poor. Any assertion to the contrary is untruthful. My government owes me medical services relative to my service-connected disabilities. I have lived for years without health insurance and have gotten the healthcare I need, either from the VA or the Public Hospitals, such as Medical Center of Louisiana (Charity Hospital), which is a teaching hospital for the medical schools of Tulane University and Louisiana State University. We don't need socialized medical care in America. We have the best healthcare system in the world.

America is a free-market society with safety-nets for the legitimatly poor. We don't require anything else.

The thing that annoys me about the health care situation is that all these god damn illegals get healthcare and jobs! when people who were born in this country don't get crap or have to work their butts off in order to receive some crappy ass doctor.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
The United States has medicare, medicaid and a host of public hospitals available to the poor. Any assertion to the contrary is untruthful. My government owes me medical services relative to my service-connected disabilities. I have lived for years without health insurance and have gotten the healthcare I need, either from the VA or the Public Hospitals, such as Medical Center of Louisiana (Charity Hospital), which is a teaching hospital for the medical schools of Tulane University and Louisiana State University. We don't need socialized medical care in America. We have the best healthcare system in the world.

America is a free-market society with safety-nets for the legitimatly poor. We don't require anything else.

It's not a free market...sorry....not with so much tax money being poored into like it is....it kind of throws the idea of a free market out the door. Since one of the driving forces in a free market, is that if one feels the the product is crap or too high in price, one can refuse to buy it, and if enough feel the same way, well, the product will not sell and the business will die, or the prices will go down. I can't refuse to pay for healthcare....If I refuse it for myself, I still have to pay the for the healthcare of others.

and, well, if everyone has access to healthcare either through their own income, the gov't welfare programs, or charity....then why do I hear stories of doctors telling ladies 8 months pregnant that their insurance has decided to refuse to pay and if she can't come up with an outrageous amount of money, he will refuse to do the delivery, or parents who as a last resort, make their child wards of the state in order to get them the care they need?

And as far as it being far, well, how far is it that I am charged two or more times what the gov't is charged for the same services to the poor, and the insurance gets a discount, and the hospital gives out so much in charity....and, they decide, in order to get more from all of those, they have to cry that they are losing money and charge me, the uninsured more???

Originally posted by dawnstar
It's not a free market...sorry....not with so much tax money being poored into like it is....it kind of throws the idea of a free market out the door.

Okay we don't have a purely free-market economy, just as we don't have a pure democracy. What's new.

then why do I hear stories of doctors telling ladies 8 months pregnant that their insurance has decided to refuse to pay and if she can't come up with an outrageous amount of money, he will refuse to do the delivery

I'm not going to say this didn't happen, because you probably have the link at the ready, but there are ways to get medical services without money up front and what you describe sounds patently illegal and furthermore, you don't get eight months pregnant overnight. And of course, all horror stories involve a desparate, vulnerable and disadvantaged woman or a child.

And as far as it being far, well, how far is it that I am charged two or more times what the gov't is charged for the same services to the poor, and the insurance gets a discount, and the hospital gives out so much in charity....and, they decide, in order to get more from all of those, they have to cry that they are losing money and charge me, the uninsured more???

If you are discussing fairness here, I don't believe I addressed that issue and I don't exactly have any knowledge of the issues you describe.

I'm kind of finding this whole thing a little funny, ya know. Wasn't it the Republican.....Newt Gingrinch....who claimed that their were alot of working people in the US who couldn't afford the standard of healthcare the the gov't was handing out when they were justifying welfare reform? Just look how quickly the tune has changed!!

But, anyways, each state has the option of extending the benefits that the federal government has mandated, and I am willing to admit that I live in one of the most generous states in the Nation......a family of five can at least get cheap affordable health care for their children if their family makes less than about $4,590!! Just $15/mo for each child!!! Of course, if the women is bogged down watching the little ones instead of working for a employer that provides her with a cheap affordable healthcare plan, well, the income has to be less than $2,754...gross, I bellieve. So, out of a net income of around 2,000/mo....one is to pay:
672/mo for health insurance (a family plan at my husband's employers.....)
$550/mo which is around what the average rent that is paid around here....in the nearest city, where the jobs are, it is more like $600-$700/mo, and well, hud was paying more like $600 for some units around here.
$400..to feed the family...sorry, but awhile back, food stamps were giving away over that for a family of four!
$400...car, insurance, gas, car maintenence, ect. Again a very low estimate, I believe...and well, if someone's working now days, they kind of need a car....especially if they have found that $700 rent too high and opted to live farther away from the job. and opps!!! just spent more than I earned, didn't I? what about clothes, house maintenaince, cable, the internet, the cellphone, allowances for the kids, heck, school lunches for the kids, what about the deductable, and the out of pocket expenses...ect...much of this buy the way, were present in the homes of those "poor" people.
doesn't jive does it??
Seems like this women would have only two options, go without heathcare and wait for that pain in her body to become such a big problem that it's considered an "emergency" so it can be treated and then accept a bill that is twice as much as what is paid for the care of the "poor" and be hounded by bill collectors until it is paid, or she can follow the path so many other women have taken probably...divorce her husband, and let the gov't take care of it all.....
sorry, her getting a job just might not be feasible, since yep you guessed it, the gov't also decided to subsidize the "poor's" childcare bill too and they have decided that the babysitter should be paid more that she can get in an entry level job! And, most jobs seem to expect her to be flexible, think nothing about changing her shift, ect...so the husband watching them often isn't an option either.



Those they turn away from the programs cannot possibly afford the same lifestyle as those that are in the programs, although they help foot the bill for them to have those lifestyles.

And, well, read the letter on the site listed below, and see just what kind of havoc the whole mess is creating for the state, and well, sorry, we are paying too much of a price for your great healthcare system, especially since it isn't open for everyone.

The aging population, coupled with the fact that New York State has the most expensive Medicaid plan in the country, is a recipe for rapidly escalating taxes. New York taxpayers pay 50% more for Medicaid than the next highest state. The average NYS Medicaid recipient receives $7,000 per year versus a national average for large states of $4,600. In Onondaga County 1 in 17 people are on Medicaid, versus 1 in 20 in other states. In Onondaga County, Medicaid costs have increased 42% in three years, from $55 million in 2001 to $78 million in 2004.

Relatively high Workers� Compensation costs are one of the reasons why manufacturers leave NYS. The National Council on Compensation Insurance estimated the average cost of a worker�s compensation case in NYS to be $11,793 or 72% above the national average.

I don't know how to interpreet that $7000/yr for each recipient...if it is the actual cost of the average individual reciepient well, that would be $583/person/mo....or...2916.66/mo for a family of fiive...
The above quotes are taken off the Freenys.org website:

www.freenys.org...

click on the link that says "Letter to the Editor" in the green bar on the top.

I'm not going to say this didn't happen, because you probably have the link at the ready, but there are ways to get medical services without money up front and what you describe sounds patently illegal and furthermore, you don't get eight months pregnant overnight. And of course, all horror stories involve a desparate, vulnerable and disadvantaged woman or a child.

okay, what about the cashier down at the corner store who worked two jobs and had her husband laid off recently by another business who opted to move out, since it is getting impossible to operate a business in NY? Last I heard, her husband decided just not to take his insulin, since he lost his insurance when he was laid off? Haven't seen her working there lately, maybe she quit the second job, so they would fit into the standards set for these programs so her husband could live??