Is there a correlation between religion and poverty?

Originally posted by WakeUpRiseUp

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by halfoldman

 

Dear halfoldman,

Do you not know what the bible says, it says to pick up your cross daily, it says that to be a believer means that your life will only get harder. You have just proved the bible true, is that what you intended or did you think that the bible promised believers heaven on earth, because it does not. In essence, the bible says that if you believe in God then you will accept the troubles of this world because your true "pleasure" is in loving others without being selfish and worrying more about your own pleasure than worrying about others. Be well.

So people in poverty need to shut up and accept that we are more worthy of 'gods' love then them?

Dear WakeUpRiseUp.

Where did I say such a thing? Let my words speak for themselves. We were asked if there was a connection between poverty and religion, I said there was. Do you believe the people who steal from us all and this world believe in the Christian God or do they believe they are God, or at least should be? The selfish care about themselves, not God and not the rest of us. If you care about others then their plan fails. Selfishness is the issue, not God.

I think that at some point when people were taught about jesus, and realized that though he was the son of god, he was a man, and suffered, that the church found a way to actually make suffering seem like a privilege.

Mr.Ms.X: Pastor/Father I am suffering.

Pastor/Father: Well so did christ and now he sits on the right hand of god.

People live as martyrs by choice. In no way was any "real" belief system based on suffering, dying, killing, lack of knowledge, etc,.

The thought of having to suffer to get into any kingdom, is a man-made system, so that many can suffer quietly.

Peace, NRE.

reply to post by PrimalRed


I didnt say religious leaders did i?

I said most mass murderers of out time have been religious VERY different.

BUT, Adolf Hitler was a christian, in a speech at the Reichstag he said, "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work."

Im pretty sure, Stalin was too....he reinstated the church after Hitler invaded.

Mao....hmmmmmm questionable but there isnt any quotes from him

Pol Pot....believed in heaven, ......this is something Prince Norodom Sihanouk said about him
""Pol Pot does not believe in God but he thinks that heaven, destiny, wants him to guide Cambodia in the way he thinks it the best for Cambodia, that is to say, the worst. Pol Pot is mad, you know, like Hitler." "


Atheism is the lack of belief in a god....it doesnt make you kill people. Where as, some of the most vile human beings to ever walk this rock "were told by god" to kill people.

Religion is a crutch, some people drink, others take drugs....but some believe in books written by man before they understood what was going on.

There are something like 30,000,000 gods....not all of them can be right.....right?

There is good and evil in humanity, being an athiest or religious plays little part in it. (unless they are delusional)


Lets try and stay on topic here eh

reply to post by loves a conspiricy


Everything Hitler did was asked of him in the bible.
According to the bible, hitler is a true follower and will be going to heaven.

Originally posted by AQuestion

Originally posted by WakeUpRiseUp

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by halfoldman

 

Dear halfoldman,

Do you not know what the bible says, it says to pick up your cross daily, it says that to be a believer means that your life will only get harder. You have just proved the bible true, is that what you intended or did you think that the bible promised believers heaven on earth, because it does not. In essence, the bible says that if you believe in God then you will accept the troubles of this world because your true "pleasure" is in loving others without being selfish and worrying more about your own pleasure than worrying about others. Be well.

So people in poverty need to shut up and accept that we are more worthy of 'gods' love then them?

Dear WakeUpRiseUp.

Where did I say such a thing? Let my words speak for themselves. We were asked if there was a connection between poverty and religion, I said there was. Do you believe the people who steal from us all and this world believe in the Christian God or do they believe they are God, or at least should be? The selfish care about themselves, not God and not the rest of us. If you care about others then their plan fails. Selfishness is the issue, not God.

Well thats pretty much exactly what you said. Poverty is a product of man, and you are saying that they need to accept the poverty and not question why some nations are worthy of wealth and others arent. I dont believe the puppet masters of this world could be ignorant enough to believe in a god but then again nothing suprises me when it comes to peoples ignorance. Maybe they do think they are god but thats sort of irrelivant in this argument isnt it?
Problem is that the 'caring' brought on by religion makes people focus on individual problems and not the big picture.
I think its selfish to think that some people need to accept their problems because 'god' want them to

Reinhard Bonnke crusade in Nigeria.
The clip claims 50 million souls were saved.
And I bet you they all gave at least one Dollar.

Originally posted by halfoldman
Reinhard Bonnke crusade in Nigeria.
The clip claims 50 million souls were saved.
And I bet you they all gave at least one Dollar.

:
barf:
What a scam.
Its so sad that so many people believe it. It use to make me angry, now it just makes me depressed that so many believe in such bull.

reply to post by halfoldman

What a confused subject!

There are several aspects to it:
1) "Poverty" is a materialistic measure of success or failure. Material "success" is in itself a kind of religion.
2) People need a conceptual framework for the very real spiritual experiences that they observe.
3) Criminals will appropriate any institution for their purposes that will allow them in.

By Western (European) standards, the indigenous people of Africa, the Americas, and elsewhere were "savages" because they did not live very materialistic lives. But many (not all) of those groups had spiritual traditions that were quite rich. You could call them "religions" but they didn't work the way European religions worked. They were just a part of daily living. The cultural strength offered by these traditions survives to this day in Afro-American and other communities across the Americas.

Spiritual experience is real. Confusions about what causes it and what it means are real. Religious belief steps in to fill this vacuum with data. It might be true data, it might be false data; people need some explanation and are often willing to accept what is offered by those they consider wise or "inspired."

The habit of criminals to undermine and overtake cultural institutions is legendary. Look at the infamous J.R. Rees speech from 1940.
www.toolan.com...

Especially since the last world war we have done much to infiltrate the various social organizations throughout the country, and in their work and in their point of view one can see clearly how the principles for which this society and others stood in the past have become accepted as part of the ordinary working plan of these various bodies. That is as it should be, and while we can take heart from this we must be healthily discontented and realize that there is still more work to be done along this line. Similarly we have made a useful attack upon a number of professions. The two easiest of them naturally are the teaching profession and the Church: the two most difficult are law and medicine...

"Religion" is the way it is today, not because "religion is bad" but because its institutions have been infiltrated by criminals. The Vatican is one of the primary examples of such infiltration. If there is anyone who would walk forward to gleefully spread the idea that "religion is bad" it would probably be the same criminals responsible for its evisceration! This is such a common tactic among criminals that it is almost a joke among those who follow these things. If you are getting any kind of propaganda about how some traditional cultural institution has "gone bad" or "is no longer relevant" it is probably being disseminated by the criminals who are trying to destroy it. They are crazy; they are criminals; they don't really even comprehend what they are actually doing.

Does devotion really condemn one to poverty? Beware of such grandiose generalizations! They are poison to the rational mind. Use discernment. Learn to think for yourself about these issues.

I see those "evangelists" that go to these poor countries as damage control. They have to reinforce that all of the horrific atrocities that are dont to them and their countries in the long run, they will be rich..... in heaven.

If I lived in a 3rd world country and I heard of this place where there was no death, and food all day, and my lost family members (mind you they died from hunger and war), I would probably abandon my own countries faith to go to the one that has the most promises.

I am utterly disgusted by those that feed off of these people, knowing that when they leave these poor villages, they are going to their 4 star hotels, and having some steak and shrimp.


Peace, NRE.

reply to post by halfoldman


LOL!!!
One word, Tithe.
Need I say moar?
Friggin pope.

reply to post by halfoldman


I can guarantee that there is a correlation between spirituality and poverty; and perhaps that turns the question, as asked, on its ear.

What you referred to as "evangelical crusaders" may, in fact, be what is known as the "Prosperity Gospel." It is very popular among evangelicals in the US-- but not so much anywhere else. Those who embrace the "prosperity Gospel" will not embrace poverty as a godly life-- but instead claim that poverty is a sign of God's punishment.

There have been others: "Social Gospel" and "Liberation Theology" and, always, these variants prove to be of the personal agenda of the leadership.

How often do you hear Americans even asking about the words, "Blessed are the poor" or "Blessed are the persecuted?" Instead, wealth is a sign of God's favor and persecution is Godly punishment. Not so in the rest of the Christian World-- and, not so in mainstream Christianity in America. Mainstream Christianity is virtually unmentioned in the media (be it books, television, newspapers or Hollywood) but it exists in large and quiet numbers.

Originally posted by WakeUpRiseUp

Originally posted by AQuestion

Originally posted by WakeUpRiseUp

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by halfoldman

 

Dear halfoldman,

Do you not know what the bible says, it says to pick up your cross daily, it says that to be a believer means that your life will only get harder. You have just proved the bible true, is that what you intended or did you think that the bible promised believers heaven on earth, because it does not. In essence, the bible says that if you believe in God then you will accept the troubles of this world because your true "pleasure" is in loving others without being selfish and worrying more about your own pleasure than worrying about others. Be well.

So people in poverty need to shut up and accept that we are more worthy of 'gods' love then them?

Dear WakeUpRiseUp.

Where did I say such a thing? Let my words speak for themselves. We were asked if there was a connection between poverty and religion, I said there was. Do you believe the people who steal from us all and this world believe in the Christian God or do they believe they are God, or at least should be? The selfish care about themselves, not God and not the rest of us. If you care about others then their plan fails. Selfishness is the issue, not God.

Well thats pretty much exactly what you said. Poverty is a product of man, and you are saying that they need to accept the poverty and not question why some nations are worthy of wealth and others arent. I dont believe the puppet masters of this world could be ignorant enough to believe in a god but then again nothing suprises me when it comes to peoples ignorance. Maybe they do think they are god but thats sort of irrelivant in this argument isnt it?
Problem is that the 'caring' brought on by religion makes people focus on individual problems and not the big picture.
I think its selfish to think that some people need to accept their problems because 'god' want them to

Dear WakeUpRiseUp,

So how many people will you feed this week, I will feed twenty. And you. What are you doing in this heartless world to help other, just complaining? Today I fed two families for a week, how many did you feed. Oh, not, actually I fed four people for the week. I have two living with me. And, what did you do? I believe in God and because of that I feed and clothe and house others. What do you do because you do not believe in God or care to give of yourself for others? I give of what I do not have, you give nothing.

reply to post by AQuestion

Dear WakeUpRiseUp, So how many people will you feed this week, I will feed twenty. And you. What are you doing in this heartless world to help other, just complaining? Today I fed two families for a week, how many did you feed. Oh, not, actually I fed four people for the week. I have two living with me. And, what did you do? I believe in God and because of that I feed and clothe and house others. What do you do because you do not believe in God or care to give of yourself for others? I give of what I do not have, you give nothing.

Well I'm sorry my socio economic standing doesnt allow me to help others but I have a hard enough time helping myself,although I still give somewhere around $2000 a year to various charities. Personally I think spreading the truth and trying to awake people is giving enough. I also had a big hand in a recent social protest that saw millions of people leave their banks for credit unions which I think is worth a hell of a lot.
Problem is we can all do our bit to feed a few or something like that but it wont solve the big problems that see things like poverty increase rapidly despite people like you.
I highly doubt that you help others because you believe in god, and if you really need a god to make you do that then your only a good person on the exterior.
Anyway, keep up the good work but lets deny logic and look at the big picture.

I dont think that believing in god or not should matter when helping someone out. There are people out there that believe in god and dont feed their own children.

The problem is the people. The difference is if you use god or not to do basic humanitarian things.

We lost hope when we used god to make our decisions to do something good, and a devil when we do something bad. As soon as people start to take responsibility for themselves, and others because it the right thing to do can we then can start anew.

God didn't make me feed a homeless person.

And the devil didn't make me ignore him/her.

My heart and love, and me wanting someone to look out for me if I need it, makes me think of whats wrong and right.

Peace, NRE.

Sure, one can give and volunteer for all types of religious organizations, form ISKCON's Food for Life programs, to Islamic and many Christian organizations.
Amongst the super rich, charity can even become competitive.
I mean, this thread is not a charity competition between religions and individuals.

The fact is however that some religious organizations are sitting on millions, while their followers collect alms for the poor. We do see some action for the poor amongst some groups, but the wealthier they are, the less they seem to do.

To say that there is a correlation between religion and poverty is not attacking individual religious people.

Maybe we should also question the meaning of poverty for some in various religions.

Why are some so poor and others have millions, or even billions in religious organizations?

Is it because poor people naturally defer to wealth as power?
Maybe the poor are kept that way for a reason?

Originally posted by PrimalRed
seriously? Is there a correlation between mass murder and atheisim? It seems atheisim thrives in countries that have dictators that kill their own people.
Why was the soviet union poor and why isn't north Korea an economic power house?

edit on 18-11-2011 by PrimalRed because: (no reason given)

there seems to be a correlation between mass murderers and mass murdering. no mass murdering ever happened because ppl used logic and reason.

on topic, religion likes to spread the word, missionaries and such, they target poverty and uneducated areas because the ppl don't really know any better.

Originally posted by loves a conspiricy

Originally posted by PrimalRed
seriously? Is there a correlation between mass murder and atheisim? It seems atheisim thrives in countries that have dictators that kill their own people.
Why was the soviet union poor and why isn't north Korea an economic power house?

edit on 18-11-2011 by PrimalRed because: (no reason given)

Most of the mass murders of our time have been BY people who are religious....sorry

I know i know....they ARENT true christians....Anders Behring Breivik was a christian....but he was only pretending wasnt he

There is a correlation.

As you can see from this:

EDIT: Right click and View image to be able to read the data on the picture....

Also look here:

www.infoplease.com...

The poorest nations are the most religious countries.

edit on 19-11-2011 by loves a conspiricy because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-11-2011 by loves a conspiricy because: (no reason given)

To be a true Christian means to be Christ-like. So, someone who is not Christ-like is not a true Christian, no matter what they claim, or what people say they are. One of the best sayings that has come out in recent years (though sometimes used in a mocking tone against our Lord) is WWJD- or, "What Would Jesus Do?" If one is not doing their best to live and love like Jesus, and if they embrace sin, then they are not a true Christian.

Great!

Another chance for me to point out the evils of organised, read brainwashed, religion.

Yes, the poor are preyed on (while praying - sorry, couldn't resist).

Organised religion has strayed so far from the true path.

Yes, people should have spiritual beliefs.

No, they should not be forced to conform to certain (wrong) dictatorships.

And a message to the organsed religions preying on the poor - you won't make it to anywhere nice.

Here are some of my favorite verses from one of my dearest Anglican hymns.
It is from the same "fantastic people" who gave us the King James Version of the Bible.
en.wikipedia.org...

All Things Bright and Beautiful:

1. All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.

2. Each little flower that opens,
Each little bird that sings,
He made their glowing colours,
He made their tiny wings.

All things bright ...

3. The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them high and lowly,
And ordered their estate.

In my childhood the third verse was removed, or rather censored.
But it is the truest Christian verse ever written.
That's what we thought Jesus wanted.
A place for the rich and the poor, and a nice exploitative capitalist class system for all.
Oh, bless Him.

All things Bright and Beautiful (censored version):


Why is it even an issue?
Jesus ordered everything, and he wanted a few to be rich, and many to be poor.
So what?

Came up on this
www.humanism.org.uk...

50 countries and that is enough to draw that conclusion? Another interesting thing to note is how the determine who is more religious than the other.