Yes, Another Occupy Thread - Down-Low on Denver

Hey all,

Only log on to post every once in a great while but thought I'd share my thoughts on what's going on here in Denver. I'm curious to get input from other folks in less major cities because I think there are probably some recurring trends going on.
I've always been thoroughly in support of the entire movement, Occupy seems to have been occupied itself, at least here. I ride the bus in and out of Civic Center Station almost every day to go to and from work. The bus I take happens to go straight down Broadway and right through the thick of the protest facing the Capital Building. I live close by so I'm around the situation often. From what I've seen it breaks down as such, in varying degrees:

20% are people who actually know what's going on, and are there to truly support and understand the cause,

30% are traveler hippie types who are there to play music, smoke a little reefer and take down 'the man'

and

50% are literally vagrant, homeless drug addicts who are there for free food, free heat and water, a free place to sleep, and a free place to do drugs and generally cause pointless havoc.

Of course I'm not saying this to be the entire movement at all. NYC is the heart of our Arab Spring right now, and that's amazing. It's all served to truly show how divided and broken so much of our system is, which is a good thing, and it's wonderful to see so many people rising up at once.

But my perspective was totally ratified when last night, the bus was late AGAIN, signaling at least the fifth time they'd shut off Broadway and Lincoln from 13th to Colfax. Those are two of the most major arteries that go to and from Downtown to the south. A few dozen different bus routes and half of the city drives through this area on a daily basis, so needless to say it seriously screws things up to have them closed off. Once we actually got close, I got off a few blocks early to avoid all the madness. I walked up Broadway and saw... nothing but police. No protesters anywhere, besides a few stragglers off to the side. But about a hundred guys in full riot gear just idling about. They had finally evicted everyone, and to be honest, after a month or more of dealing with it I'm kind of glad it's been dispersed. After watching the video of what had gone down I do think that the police used some unnecessary force, but you should have seen some of the people who were protesting. You can even tell in the videos released - if you slow it down and really look, most of the people are not exactly class citizens out exercising their first amendment rights.

On my walk around the area, I ended up encountering four different people in passing - two protesters, a cop, and a random guy on the bus who wasn't involved in any of it.

What they said fascinated me:

The first protester I talked to bummed a smoke off of me. I asked him how long he'd been there and he said he'd been coming out off and on for a few weeks. He agreed with me about the 'provocateurs' as the media so amusingly dubbed them, and said that in the end it got totally out of control, with people getting drunk, doing drugs, burning things in the street and throwing stuff at cars. He too was somewhat glad that they broke everything up, and hoped that a better gathering would begin somewhere else.

The second protester I talked to randomly started talking at me as I passed him because he was so drunk he could barely stand up. The only way I could tell he was involved was because he had a dirty "We Are the 99%" sign. I didn't catch much of anything he said, besides the general "**** the police," etc.. So I guess I can't really say I talked to him, just mumbled something and moved on.

As I continued up 14th, a cop flagged me over to help him pull some tape taut across Lincoln that had come loose. I asked him what had happened and he gave me the lowdown. I mentioned what I thought about the vagrants and people being stupid and he, too, agreed completely. He actually said that on several occasions, the cops had marched with the protesters in front of the Capital building, and that a lot of the guys on the DPD force agree 100% with the entire movement. But some of the more dedicated, serious protesters actually came to the police and asked them to try to get rid of the troublemakers in the group, which apparently became to many in number and the entire thing had to be shut down.

The guy I talked to on the bus was also thankful that he no longer had to walk several miles home from work because the busses were going to be normal again.

All in all, everyone seemed to agree, which makes me kind of sad. America has become so broken that even our rebellions - in some cases - become almost as bad, in different ways, than what they're rebelling against. Rising up and taking to the streets is great. Sitting in them with a handle of vodka, shouting at people, and not showering for a month is not.

Again, I'm not accusing the Occupy movement of being this way. It's a wonderful thing. I'm just pointing out that at least in Denver, it's not really this amazing display of patriotism.
Is this the case anywhere else? What can be done to prevent this kind of thing from happening? It really fights against any official credibility in the eyes of anyone who can actually help change this country. What are the police to do in such a situation besides clear everyone out? Sit down with each person and decide whether or not they are there for the right reasons?

Thoughts?

Mods, feel free to move or delete. If this concept/topic has been discussed to death, just let me know, a quick scanning of the thousands (ha) of Occupy threads didn't reveal anything immediately correlative. If I've made some gross misstatement, do inform - politely, of course. Flames and trolls will be ignored - it pains me to even have to say that, not but four or five years ago those people were kicked off this site. Sad days...

reply to post by alexbassguy


Dear alexbassguy,

You talked a lot about personalities in Denver; but, you didn't address what they are angry about. Let me ask you this, do you think their is a privileged class in America, do you think the laws are applied fairly, do you believe things are going to be better for Americans in the future or do you think that 99% of us get little while 1% of us control the system so that they can get just about everything?

reply to post by AQuestion


Yes, of course I think that there's a horrendous imbalance of power and wealth in the US, there's no questioning that, it's economic fact. Laws have been broken, and those who are responsible should be hung, in my opinion. The people here are angry about the same thing everyone else is, which is why I didn't specify it. It started the same as all the other Occupy protests anywhere, it's just been, like I said in the OP, 'occupied' itself by people who don't really care, they just want an excuse to be loud and party. Sure, they may have signs and shout slogans, but they're really just there because it's a safe haven in a situation like that. Cops can't come near, it's a protest! What better place to do a bunch of drugs and get rowdy? Also, Civic Center park is one of the meccas for drugs, gangs and the homeless in this part of Denver. On a normal day, it's seriously not possible to walk through and not get offered something terrible.

reply to post by alexbassguy


Dear alexbassguy,

Don't know your city well, have only been there a couple of times and not for long. I can tell you that I have walked through the one in Los Angeles, it is well structured, they pay for porta-potties themselves and everyone was very polite. I think we need to focus on the issues rather than the process. The process of political say is corrupt and the voices of the people are heard and ignored in exchange for money and privilege. That is the biggest issue.

I am old and conservative in my lifestyle. I have worked in government for decades and do what I can; but, it is apparent to me, part of the establishment, that things are horribly wrong and I do believe people have a right to free speech and assembly, that is part of the reason I went into government. Even the homeless should have a say in what the laws are. Even people that smoke weed deserve a say.

Thanks for sharing, it's cool to hear about what is happening. I have always thought the occupy movement would become intrusive and they are in many ways. Personally I am very familiar with the area. Colfax is pretty bad anyways but sometimes you have to go that way. But I bet it's worse when you have to fight through an angry mob.

I am curious about what you said about the cops though, the ones that support the OWS cause I am willing to bet they are union.

reply to post by alexbassguy

Thank you so much for your thread. I also live in Denver. I could not have put my feelings about the OWS here in Denver any better than you did. I do agree with the ideas they are trying to bring forward, but it got out of control here. As I watched the local news this evening, at first I was embarrassed for them, but then I realized it wasn't the true OWS people who were the problem.
Again, thank you for your post.

Alex
thank you for your opinion
You gave us some objectivity about the OWS
thank you again

Thankyou for your story it rang true for my gut feelings about this whole thing. What more can I say that you have not already? Some of the things you said were verbatim what I have tried to say too.

reply to post by alexbassguy

That was a very well thought out and balanced article about OWS and Denver in particular. I think your %'s are about right to what I experienced here in Missouri. It is sad though, isn't it? The people, energy and general intentions are all there and good. It's just not working like we all hoped it might. That 50% you refer to......It's a deal breaker and like repellent to those who would add to the 20% number.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences without bashing. It's refreshing and informative.

Haha, wow, thanks guys. It's interesting to know that this is the general consensus.

AQuestion - It's nice and surprising to hear that the protests in LA are so organized, I lived out there for a minute and would not expect that. I absolutely think everyone should get their say and be allowed to express their opinions, but that isn't what they're doing. They using other people's good intentions as an excuse to just do what they would normally do, except louder and all in one place. And when I said 'drugs' I by no means meant weed. Here, people are smoking crack, doing heroin and meth. You can't walk down Colfax and not pass at least four people smoking weed on a regular day. No one cares about that here (which is changing, unfortunately... some strange force is passing local bills all over kicking out dispensaries, resulting in the loss of hundreds of millions in potential tax revenues over the next few years and about 6,000 jobs statewide. such a freaking shame...)

thehoneycomb - The cop was a really genuinely nice guy. I'm not sure if DPD is unionized, they very well could be. I'll ask my brother - he's a medic. But he did say that a lot of them (including him) agreed with a lot of the core demands of the movement and were really unhappy with things. Apparently the first two times they closed the streets down were totally voluntary to make room for live music and guest speakers. That was before everything went downhill.

Thanks again, glad I could bring an objective eye to the table.

reply to post by alexbassguy


Thank you for your post, I have had very similar feelings regarding the occupy protests. I have made some comments on this site about OWS I wish I would have cooled down a little before I clicked the reply button. It just seems if you don't support the protesters 100% then you get attacked on this site.

I live in Phoenix, a population of about 4 million in the metro area, and I very seldom hear anything about Occupy Phoenix. I don't know why that is, our unemployment rate is high, our housing market is about the worst in the country. Maybe people are afraid of spending time at Tent City,(Maricopa Co. jail), which is ironic when you think about it....

My point is that I am really neutral when it comes to the true protesters, it's a shame the movement has attracted so many undesirables.

Good thread, nice reporting.

This is what I think:

I don't know anyone that is personally down at any of the movements, BUT I know many many people who support the movement. I see random people on my facebook posting things etc, people talking about it etc.

The problem is, we have jobs or we go to school or have other responsibilities, and this movement isn't going to happen over night. We are waiting for the right time, when SHTF and our presence is really needed. Until then, the demographic of those down there does not represent all of those who support it. Although someone on the live feed in Oakland had a good idea today- use shifts like the police do.

Anyway, I will also say, the homeless and drug addicts are also the 99%, I have been addicted to coke and had to go to rehab for it(clean now, smoke some ganja on occasion but I take care of my responsibilities and goto school and work now, plus do community service). So I don't judge those people because I have been there to(and people end up there because they don't have hope in the world). It just sucks that the media can use them the portray the supporters in a certain light.

Just my 2 cents...

reply to post by CREAM


Let me say first, mad props to you for going through that and kicking the habit - not easy. I too am guilty of an occasional toke.. I don't judge folks like that either, I know it may sound like I am but there is a certain clout that goes along with them, unfortunately. And I actually mostly agree with you, I just think that tact and common sense are a big factor, you know? People are going to do with their bodies what they will, and I don't have a problem with that. Hell, I would support legalization, taxation and sensible control of all drugs - talk about a tax money-maker. But discretion is key, and I feel like a lot of people - especially in their situation - have a hard time respecting that. These people are just as much people as anyone else, and absolutely have a voice and a say. But ultimately actions speak louder than words, and starting fires, being belligerent, and destroying property are not behaviors driven by respect or the desire for deep social change, no matter who you are.

Interesting thread and good report.

I like the fact that the OP is generally in favor of the protests...but not afraid to criticize specifics.

Too many people on both sides howling their slogans and talking points, thinking in black or white. Nice to see some nuance.

Our local OWS has it easy, it looks like a Black Friday lineup with tents, it's all in a row, on a cement walk.
The mayor asked them to move down the street for three days so they can put up the city Christmas Tree, and they can come back on Friday.
You can just walk through like a reception line and see everyone as you go.

reply to post by alexbassguy


Maybe next time OWS will grow a pair and kick the moochers and homeless vagrants out?

reply to post by Rockpuck


I certainly hope so! It does nothing but hurt the credibility of the entire movement.
2nd line

Originally posted by alexbassguy
All in all, everyone seemed to agree, which makes me kind of sad. America has become so broken that even our rebellions - in some cases - become almost as bad, in different ways, than what they're rebelling against.

I find the whole OWS movement a fascinating human behavior study. People tend towards certain structure in society, they think they don’t want that structure but when it’s removed they immediately go right back to recreating it. We see this in the OWS encampments, they form their own security forces, segregated sleeping enclaves, and even organizational "governments"- micro versions of the very things they object to in society at large. They unite under the banner of “we are the 99%”, but then they argue among themselves about who is worthy to stay in the encampments and who should leave. They sub-divide themselves up into groups based on their personal beliefs- communist, homosexual, etc. Many protestors have objected to “homeless” people infiltrating their ranks just to get free stuff without putting any work in themselves. Many have also complained about those who are not “real” protestors because they go home to their comfy bed every night instead of toughing it out in a tent. It’s just fascinating to me because these people have tried to band together to fight against certain aspects of society, but then they seem to revert back to the exact same behavior they find objectionable in others.

Originally posted by SavedOne

Originally posted by alexbassguy
All in all, everyone seemed to agree, which makes me kind of sad. America has become so broken that even our rebellions - in some cases - become almost as bad, in different ways, than what they're rebelling against.

I find the whole OWS movement a fascinating human behavior study. People tend towards certain structure in society, they think they don’t want that structure but when it’s removed they immediately go right back to recreating it. We see this in the OWS encampments, they form their own security forces, segregated sleeping enclaves, and even organizational "governments"- micro versions of the very things they object to in society at large. They unite under the banner of “we are the 99%”, but then they argue among themselves about who is worthy to stay in the encampments and who should leave. They sub-divide themselves up into groups based on their personal beliefs- communist, homosexual, etc. Many protestors have objected to “homeless” people infiltrating their ranks just to get free stuff without putting any work in themselves. Many have also complained about those who are not “real” protestors because they go home to their comfy bed every night instead of toughing it out in a tent. It’s just fascinating to me because these people have tried to band together to fight against certain aspects of society, but then they seem to revert back to the exact same behavior they find objectionable in others.

At the end of the day, we're just primates, with basic primate social structures, hierarchy, etc that we will always revert to and can't escape. Utopian and religious fantasies are hubris. We are just a short lived species that the Earth won't even remember in a few hundred millenia (blink of an eye in geological time). Best to take that into account before trying to "manage" society this way or that.

Good, objective post, though, OP

reply to post by alexbassguy


I agree with the OP. I also live in Denver and thought it was a bit ridiculous to even call the Occupy Denver event a "protest". I think for many it was simply an excuse to party.

I think it's great what the protestors in other cities around the world are doing, but I think the Denver group lacked leadership and unity.