help - Homeland Security

This is KKing's Girlfriend, Liz.

I need your help- I'm doing a debate, and I figured you guys would know something about this-
I need atrocities that Homeland Security has committed, and soon- plus sources of where you got it (just the website or something).
Thanks.

[Edited on 10-4-2003 by KKing123]

cuttingedge.org...
It's a religiously backed site but check out around the middle. There are some quotes in there. Also check out other's posts on HS.-Thomas Crowne recently came up with an article about Clinton starting it. I hope this helps.

As far as my theory goes Homeland Security will not ever commit an "atrocity." Thier intent is to slowly, carefully and completely strip away our rights with our willing pleasure the entire time (i.e. make us a little more paranoid witout us even knowing it), this will happen over (this is a pure guess) about 3-6 years. Then *poof* all of a sudden we are standing at a book burning and it dawns on us "this is wrong".... TOO LATE!

Go ahead, again, I figure the Liddyites and the Ruchies to stomp on me here.

Observer is absolutely correct.

The original Patriot act had a sunset provision for the anti-terrorism free surveillance parts. If not extended by congress, they expire in 2005.

It was published today that congress is attempting to strip the sunset provision, making it permanent. This will occur this week.

www.nytimes.com...

Republicans Want Terror Law Made Permanent
By ERIC LICHTBLAU


ASHINGTON, April 8 � Working with the Bush administration, Congressional Republicans are maneuvering to make permanent the sweeping antiterrorism powers granted to federal law enforcement agents after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, officials said today.

The move is likely to touch off strong objections from many Democrats and even some Republicans in Congress who believe that the Patriot Act, as the legislation that grew out of the attacks is known, has already given the government too much power to spy on Americans.

Advertisement




The landmark legislation expanded the government's power to use eavesdropping, surveillance, access to financial and computer records and other tools to track terrorist suspects.

When it passed in October 2001, moderates and civil libertarians in Congress agreed to support it only by making many critical provisions temporary. Those provisions will expire, or "sunset," at the end of 2005 unless Congress re-authorizes them.

But Republicans in the Senate in recent days have discussed a proposal, written by Senator Orrin G. Hatch, Republican of Utah, that would repeal the sunset provisions and make the law's new powers permanent, officials said. Republicans may seek to move on the proposal this week by trying to attaching it to another antiterrorism bill that would make it easier for the government to use secret surveillance warrants against "lone wolf" terrorism suspects.

Many Democrats have grown increasingly frustrated by what they see as a lack of information from the Justice Department on how its agents are using their newfound powers, and they say they need more time to determine whether agents are abusing those powers.

The Senate Democratic leader, Tom Daschle of South Dakota, said today that without extensive review, he "would be very strongly opposed to any repeal" of the 2005 time limit. He predicted that Republicans lacked the votes to repeal the limits.

Indeed, Congressional officials and political observers said the debate might force lawmakers to take stock of how far they were willing to sacrifice civil liberties in the name of fighting terrorism.

Beryl Howell, a former Democratic aide in the Senate who worked extensively on the 2001 legislation, said that by forcing the issue, Mr. Hatch "is throwing down the gauntlet to people who think the U.S.A. Patriot Act went too far and who want to cut back its powers."

Justice Department officials in interviews today credited the Patriot Act with allowing the F.B.I. to move with greater speed and flexibility to disrupt terrorist operations before they occur, and they say they wanted to see the 2005 time limit on the legislation lifted.

"The Patriot Act has been an extremely useful tool, a demonstrated success, and we don't want that to expire on us," a senior department official said on condition of anonymity.

Another senior official who also demanded anonymity said the department had held discussions with Congressional Republicans about how that might best be accomplished. "Our involvement has really been just keeping an open ear to the issue as it's proceeding, not to really guide the debate," the official said.

With the act's provisions not set to expire for more than two and a half years, officials expected that the debate over its future would be many months away. But political jockeying over separate bipartisan legislation sponsored by Senators Jon Kyl, Republican of Arizona, and Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York, appears to have given Senator Hatch the chance to move on the issue much earlier than expected.

The Kyl-Schumer measure would eliminate the need for federal agents seeking secret surveillance warrants to show that a suspect is affiliated with a foreign power or agent, like a terrorist group.

Advocates say the measure would make it easier for agents to go after "lone wolf" terrorists who are not connected to a foreign group and might have allowed the F.B.I. to get a warrant against Zacarias Moussaoui, known as the 20th hijacker, before the Sept. 11 attacks.

The proposal was approved unanimously by the Senate Judiciary Committee. But Republicans are upset because several Democrats say that when the measure reaches the Senate floor for a full vote, perhaps this week or later in the month, they plan to offer amendments that would impose tougher restrictions on the use of secret warrants.

Among other proposals, Senator Russell D. Feingold, Democrat of Wisconsin, wants to add amendments that would require the Justice Department to give detailed information about how the secret warrants are being used and that could give defense lawyers access to some information generated by the warrants in criminal cases.

Republicans are countering with amendments of their own, including the idea of making the Patriot Act permanent.

Aides to Senator Hatch would not discuss his views on repealing the time limits in the law.

But an aide who demanded anonymity said of the "lone wolf" bill: "We support this bill as it is and that's how we want to see it passed. If the Democrats want to amend the bill, then we will offer an equal number of amendments to improve the bill as well. We hope the Democrats will stop holding this bill up."

Members of the Judiciary Committee, which Mr. Hatch leads, have been working in recent days to reach an agreement over the amendments that will be considered, officials said. But so far neither side appears willing to back down.

YEAH politicians!!!!!!!!!!!! They will kill us all if SARS does not get us first.

I hope the sarcasim is just inferred here

[Edited on 10-4-2003 by observer]

Thanks for your help- I got quite a bit.
this stuff is just a bit worrying...

Originally posted by observer
As far as my theory goes Homeland Security will not ever commit an "atrocity." Thier intent is to slowly, carefully and completely strip away our rights with our willing pleasure the entire time (i.e. make us a little more paranoid witout us even knowing it), this will happen over (this is a pure guess) about 3-6 years. Then *poof* all of a sudden we are standing at a book burning and it dawns on us "this is wrong".... TOO LATE!

I don't completely disagree, but I think 3-6 years is a bit pessimistic.. also, a continued string of terrorists attacks will be necessary to keep the public demanding security (and their minds off of realizing their slipping liberties).
The more terror, the faster this scenario of lost rights will occur.

Also, I'm not sayig that it would be state-sponsored terrorism.. it could be, but any old terrorism would do.

The thought being, the people creating HS and Patriot Acts now, may have completely good intentions for the policies they are creating and aren't planning on abusing those powers... that doesn't exclude an administration 10 or 20 years down the line from using these powers for evil. Once the framework is in place, it will only be a matter of time before SOMEONE misuses it.

i still say it isn't long before the people realize what's happening to them. the saddest part is, people won't do anything about it. unless people realize they have the power to fight back and take a stand, then we have no future. the best sites for info about homeland security would probably be their site. (keep in mind she's doing a project, not trying to expose it)

the saddest part is, people won't do anything about it. Posted by Phoenix Cross

Sad, but very very true.

Originally posted by phoenix_cross
i still say it isn't long before the people realize what's happening to them. the saddest part is, people won't do anything about it. unless people realize they have the power to fight back and take a stand, then we have no future. the best sites for info about homeland security would probably be their site. (keep in mind she's doing a project, not trying to expose it)

But some people never WILL see what's happening, because to them nothing IS happening, except the government is making them feel more secure.
Especially if terrorism here ever gets really bad (i mean, imagine living in israel or a place like that where there is the REAL constant threat of terror). They will say, This terrorism is out of control and they will gladly let the government do anything it can to stop it.
If the situaton (the HS situation) ever gets as bad as WE can imagine it getting, it will be too late to stop it. And only then will EVERYONE see the problem.

But some people never WILL see what's happening, because to them nothing IS happening, except the government is making them feel more secure. Posted by Quango

Which is why I see another attack, or multiple attacks happening in the near future. However, these attacks will likely be engineered, and not by any foreign terrorists, but by the CIA.

Such terrorist attacks will give the HS a justifiable reason to exist, and to destroy the sunset legistlation.

You create a problem needing a solution. Then you create a solution, and destroy human rights in the process. But, you voted for it, so it is justified.

Originally posted by dragonrider

Which is why I see another attack, or multiple attacks happening in the near future. However, these attacks will likely be engineered, and not by any foreign terrorists, but by the CIA.

Such terrorist attacks will give the HS a justifiable reason to exist, and to destroy the sunset legistlation.

You create a problem needing a solution. Then you create a solution, and destroy human rights in the process. But, you voted for it, so it is justified.

But what is the "Why?"?
I understand how it will happen, and I don't doubt that there are people who would engineer it, but i can't see why?
What more power do they want? They have power.
Do they want slaves still? Do they want to actually TELL people what to do, instead of just saying what they can't do. Are people really capable of such desires?
Isn't that so Old Way?
Isn't the New World Order just some idea to keep us talking - to keep us from standing up and taking back our rights?
Is it working?

Maybe in the end, their own slogan will be used against them.

Originally posted by dragonrider
the saddest part is, people won't do anything about it. Posted by Phoenix Cross

Sad, but very very true.

Yes sad, but not true.
How many more times must I speak about these matters? Over half the state of Michigan myself included will not allow American Rights to be taken away.
Stand firm we are watching them.

The most criminal thing about the DHS is its racist policies, singling out citizen of a certain religion, spreading fear and hate among its (the DHS's) good and honest american victims.

BTW, can someone post (or repost) the data about the desinformation emanating from DHS and the administration (like 50% of americans "feeling" that Saddam is linked to 9/11 etc...) ?


[Edited on 10-4-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

[Edited on 10-4-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

Has anyone come up with any 'atrocities' committed by Homeland Security yet? just wondering?

Mokuhadzushi: could you enlighten me on these DHS racist policies? I would like to become aware of them - I wouldn't want to be profiled or anything. Perhaps a link?



[Edited on 10-4-2003 by Bob88]

whatreallyhappened.com

drudge report

Try these as starters...

trust me.

anyway, as for atrocities, it is more valuable the attack to bite your foe with the poisoned bug, while he is fighting an angry swordsman. what i'm trying to get across is that the DHS will silently make it's moves and point us in a different direction. somewhere way over in the east. no no not that far, yeeeeah right there in the middle. but to prevent the bee from stinging, something must be done. we all discuss this probelem, and we all know that something will happen. unfortunately almost every discussion i see will probably involve the need for Militia and rebellion, so i'll forgo that and tell you that instead of sitting on our asses and saying we're screwed, we must screw the screwers so to speak. err. anyway, the only weapon is knowledge, knowledge comes from expirience and evidence. make the people expirience the evidence and they will become knowledgable about this situation.