CRIME: Keeping Americans Safe the Libertarian way

Originally posted by intrepid
TL, what makes you think I don't own guns? I come from a millitary family, I was taught to use rifles and handguns at an early age. My first was given to me on my 12th birthday. I was taught to respect them as well.

Excellent... And, i'm not sure, i'm making an assumption based of your idea on how guns should be outlawed...... And if not outlawed then more regulated...

And i'd like to know why.

Originally posted by TrueLies
Excellent... And, i'm not sure, i'm making an assumption based of your idea on how guns should be outlawed...... And if not outlawed then more regulated...

And i'd like to know why.

See, that's how we got into this in the first place, I didn't say anything about outlawing guns. I see nothing wrong with a person owning a rifle, if the individual uses it, stores it and trains his children PROPERLY. I think handguns should have stricter rules because with the exception of target shooting, the only purpose they serve is to point at another human. Assault rifles = total ban. You don't have to go past the name of these rifles to figure this one out. Manditory trigger locks on ALL firearms. On this issue the Dem's have my vote.

I disagree... You can't regulate and red tape guns because some people aren't responsible with them.
Most "law abiding" citizens, keep them stored away in safe places, in their gun boxes ect... Usually in their bedrooms...

There is a safety on guns, are you saying you want to double lock it?

If someone doesn't lock their door and falls through it unintentionally does that mean that everyone now has to put double locks on their door to pay for that persons stupidity? Or i'm sorry I should of just said "overlooked" the door to be more politically correct..


Just tell me "why" you think it's "necessary" to make things more complicated for already peaceful law abiding citizens? Does this make sense to you? Especially when crime rates have been falling due to people getting tougher or "real crime" ......

If people want to be irresponsible with guns and not take logical precautionary steps to avoid "accidents" then they pay the stupid tax... It's not other people's fault....meaning the smart ones that keep their guns locked away safe and sound.

Why should these people "pay"??

Originally posted by TrueLies
There is a safety on guns, are you saying you want to double lock it?

A safety is not a lock. It has no key, no combination. It can be manipulated by the strength of a 5 year old. So, no I don't want to lock it twice, I want to lock it once, with a trigger lock.

Here you go, I posted this here and it demonstrates the flaw in mandatory gun lock laws. I really hate this damn mandatory locks thing. Dems say if it saves just one life its worth it. I say if leaving your guns unlocked saves just one life its worth it. BTW, more children drown in mop buckets than accidentally shoot each other every year. I would like to see where you got the 1500 number.


On Aug. 23, 2000, Jessica Lynne Carpenter was 14 years old. At that young age, she knew how to shoot; her father taught her. There were firearms in the Carpenter home. Her law abiding parents John and Tephanie Carpenter did just whate the new �safe storage� law in California required them to do, lock up their guns when their children are home alone.

Jessica�s siblings � Anna, 13; Vanessa, 11; Ashley, 9; and John William, 7 � were still in bed when 27 year old Jonathon David Bruce broke into the farmhouse about 9 a.m. that morning.
Bruce armed himself with a pitchfork. He cut the phone lines. When he entered the house and began stabbing the younger children in their beds, Jessica tried to dial 911. It didn�t do any good. She ran to where the family guns were. They were locked up.


�When the 14-year old girl ran to a nearby house to escape the pitchfork-wielding man attacking her siblings, she didn�t ask her neighbor to call 911. She begged him to grab his rifle and �take care of this guy�� writes Kimi Yoshino in the Fresno Bee. He didn�t, and Jessica ended up on the phone with the police.

When Merced County sheriff�s deputies finally arrived, 7-year old John William was dead. 9-year old Ashley Danielle was dead. Ashley had clung to the leg of the assailent long enough for her older sister to escape. 13-year old Anna was wounded, but she survived.

�Once the deputies arrived, Bruce rushed them with his bloody pitchfork. So they shot him dead. They shot him more than a dozen times. With their guns. Get it?� writes Vin Suprynowicz of the Las Vegas Review Journal.

Do you have the intestinal fortitude to walk up to walk up to the graves of John William and Ashley Danielle and place a trigger lock on the their head stones? Would you have it in you to hand a trigger lock to John and Tephanie Carpenter, or debate reasonable gun control with them?

Your drama Cav is truely remarkable. A single instance and you would have guns lying around for all to pick up. No I wouldn't put a gun lock on their headstones, but I would put one on the headstones of every one of the 1500 that died of gun accidents.

It never ceases to amaze me, you can point out a way to make anything safer and people say,"good idea", you point out a way to make guns safer and the 2nd Am. is thrown in your face and a random injustice is thrown your way. It is no wonder America has the gun crime it has, the people are literally asking for it.

Your drama Cav is truely remarkable. A single instance and you would have guns lying around for all to pick up. No I wouldn't put a gun lock on their headstones, but I would put one on the headstones of every one of the 1500 that died of gun accidents.

It never ceases to amaze me, you can point out a way to make anything safer and people say,"good idea", you point out a way to make guns safer and the 2nd Am. is thrown in your face and a random injustice is thrown your way. It is no wonder America has the gun crime it has, the people are literally asking for it.

It is not a single instance. Take every rape and robbery ever committed, every murder, every injustice, and put a handgun in the palms of the victim. Do you really think most of those crimes would have occurred? Now make them fumble with a trigger lock and see how many of them still occur.

I'm still waiting for you to tell us where you got your 1500 number.

The second amendment is not just ink on paper, it is a natural, God given right to defend our homes, persons and families. The second was simply a promise that the new government would never try to keep that defense mechanism from us.

Without the second, all other rights are subject to infringement. It is without a doubt the most important amendment. I am not the only one who thinks this, our (not your) founding fathers thought so as well.



[edit on 3-9-2004 by cavscout]

[edit on 3-9-2004 by cavscout]

Originally posted by cavscout
I'm still waiting for you to tell us where you got your 1500 number.

The second amendment is not just ink on paper, it is a natural, God given right to defend our homes, persons and families. The second was simply a promise that the new government would never try to keep that defense mechanism from us.

Couldn't find the exact site but this one says the same:
teresi.us...

"God given right"? I was under the impression that God stopped talking directly to man after the book of Revelation was written. C'mon Cav, think. And while you are thinking, check this out:

www.cnn.com...

www.gca.org.za...

www.chron.com...

www.bradycampaign.org...

There's plenty more but I'm sure you wouldn't Google it, it may offend God, it's about gun control.

Here is a site with quite a bit of stats on guns and crimes

www.justfacts.com...


More lives have been saved by a gun than have been lost and that is JUST what has been reported, how many havent?

I myself have used mine twice in selfprotection and since no one was shot did not report either time, I am sure there are 100s of thousands of incedents just like that

[edit on 3-9-2004 by Amuk]

Hey Bro, I knew we were going to lock horns over this one. Your link was informative. Approx 8,000,000 violent crimes and a gun used in less than 700,000. That's a gun used in 1 out of 10 violent crimes. So why arm everyone? We just have more guns for Cav to let lie around.

Here's another:
medlib.med.utah.edu...

Originally posted by intrepid
. No I wouldn't put a gun lock on their headstones, but I would put one on the headstones of every one of the 1500 that died of gun accidents.

What would you put on the headstones of the THOUSANDS that are killed while un-armed? While it is a noble concern to care about the 1500 that screw around with a gun and die, it does not and should not (at least in America) usurp the right for others to exercise their 2nd amendment right. The resonsibility of gun storage is up to the owner.

Obviously if there are small children in the house you need to exercise more care than if you are say a single 35 y/o male living alone. There are also small gun safes that are the size of a cigar box. They have a keypad that can be opened by touching a few buttons with your fingertips.

Since gun laws in Canada are so strict, I would assume that every murder in Toronto is with a baseball bat or butcher knife? One last fact, did you know that off duty police commit more violations with their weapons than do US citizens with a ccw permit. That stat points out the aspect of personal responsibility or respect for the weapon.

You can go to a state like Wyoming where guys will have a gun in their truck. You can go to a cowboy bar and there will be 25 trucks in the lot with weapons in them. They can get blind drunk and have a barfight and NOBODY ever goes out to get their gun. On the contrary you can go to a place like Detroit and someone gets shot every night over stupiid things like a d pair of shoes or a shoulder bump in a crowd,. How do you explain that?

Intrepid says:

handguns should have stricter rules because with the exception of target shooting, the only purpose they serve is to point at another human

Self defense is one other useful aspect of a handgun. Thousands of crimes per year are stopped due to defensive handgun use. I fail to see the correlation between ownership of rifles vs handguns. If you note many of the most violent firearm crimes are not commited with handguns.

You either support people rights to gun ownership or you dont. Making the argument that certain guns are ok and other should not be owned is your personal belief. You may feel that people should only be able to own a shotgun or a deer rifle. Handguns are and can be used in hunting, target, self defense or to hang over your fireplace. The problem lies with a human choosing to commit a criminal act with one.

Originally posted by TrueLies
What would you put on the headstones of the THOUSANDS that are killed while un-armed? While it is a noble concern to care about the 1500 that screw around with a gun and die, it does not and should not (at least in America) usurp the right for others to exercise their 2nd amendment right. The resonsibility of gun storage is up to the owner.

You didn't read my last post. Less than 1 in 10 violent crimes involve a firearm. I work in corrections, I can tell you that a can of pepper spray is as effective as a firearm. I haven't heard of a child being killed by it either.

Originally posted by TrueLies
Since gun laws in Canada are so strict, I would assume that every murder in Toronto is with a baseball bat or butcher knife? One last fact, did you know that off duty police commit more violations with their weapons than do US citizens with a ccw permit. That stat points out the aspect of personal responsibility or respect for the weapon.

"Since gun laws in Canada are so strict, I would assume that every murder in Toronto is with a baseball bat or butcher knife?" Why do you gun lovers always have to so abstrat and dramatic?

As to the cops, I wouldn't mind seeing a link to verify that.

Originally posted by TrueLies

You can go to a state like Wyoming where guys will have a gun in their truck. You can go to a cowboy bar and there will be 25 trucks in the lot with weapons in them. They can get blind drunk and have a barfight and NOBODY ever goes out to get their gun. On the contrary you can go to a place like Detroit and someone gets shot every night over stupiid things like a d pair of shoes or a shoulder bump in a crowd,. How do you explain that?

I'll explain it like this. Guns & booze, not a good combination. This may happen but I'm betting a gun get whipped out more than once.
As for Detroit, sounds to me like they could use some gun control. Thanks for pointing that out for me.

Originally posted by TrueLies
Intrepid says:

handguns should have stricter rules because with the exception of target shooting, the only purpose they serve is to point at another human

Self defense is one other useful aspect of a handgun. Thousands of crimes per year are stopped due to defensive handgun use. I fail to see the correlation between ownership of rifles vs handguns. If you note many of the most violent firearm crimes are not commited with handguns.

You either support people rights to gun ownership or you dont. Making the argument that certain guns are ok and other should not be owned is your personal belief. You may feel that people should only be able to own a shotgun or a deer rifle. Handguns are and can be used in hunting, target, self defense or to hang over your fireplace. The problem lies with a human choosing to commit a criminal act with one.

And Hundreds of thousands of crimes are committed with guns. Amuk provided the link to that statisic.

"If you note many of the most violent firearm crimes are not commited with handguns" Again I would like to see some stats on that. If you're going to put something here, please provide some back up.

No it's not my personal belief, it's actually the Democrats stance on firearms.
Handguns are a poor tool for hunting.


[edit on 3-9-2004 by intrepid]

Intrepid

I could go over stats and you could come back with more both pretty much stating what either of us want but the bottom line is......


The Constitution of the United States Of Americas Bill of Rights Guaranties EVERY citizen the right to bear arms. PERIOD.

Not to hunt with, not for target shooting, but for self-protection from not only criminals but also from enimies both abroad and at home.

It does not say with gun locks, it does not say registered, it does not say after a period of training it does not even forbid convicted criminals.

For me that pretty much sums it up.

Our founding Fathers found it SO IMPORTANT to a free people to be armed that they put it IN WRITING.

I dont know how to put it any other way.

Originally posted by intrepid
It never ceases to amaze me, you can point out a way to make anything safer and people say,"good idea", you point out a way to make guns safer and the 2nd Am. is thrown in your face and a random injustice is thrown your way.

The question of gun locks isn't whether or not it's a good idea, it's wether or not you should be told what to do with the things you own. Some people would prefer to have one on their gun, others would find it a hinderance. It's just another useless regulation that most wouldn't adhere to any way.

It is no wonder America has the gun crime it has, the people are literally asking for it.

This is a fallacy that everyone else has about America. We're not a nation full of violent criminals that go about robbing and killing. Our crime statistics, are lower or on par with most of the industrialized world. International Crime Victims Survey. I can't find the 2004 results of that, I will update if I find it.

"God given right"? I was under the impression that God stopped talking directly to man after the book of Revelation was written.

Property ownership is an indelible right given to us by the creator, protected by the 9th Amendment's enumerated rights in the Constitution.

Originally posted by Amuk
Intrepid

I could go over stats and you could come back with more both pretty much stating what either of us want but the bottom line is......


The Constitution of the United States Of Americas Bill of Rights Guaranties EVERY citizen the right to bear arms. PERIOD.

Not to hunt with, not for target shooting, but for self-protection from not only criminals but also from enimies both abroad and at home.

It does not say with gun locks, it does not say registered, it does not say after a period of training it does not even forbid convicted criminals.

For me that pretty much sums it up.

Our founding Fathers found it SO IMPORTANT to a free people to be armed that they put it IN WRITING.

I dont know how to put it any other way.

OK Bro, let's throw out the stats. Using the logic you've applied here, I would come back that if it's a Constitional thing, even the spirit of said document, let's use the tools they were refering to, muskets. The Constitution gave every American the right to bear muskets and shot pistols.

Originally posted by PistolPete
Property ownership is an indelible right given to us by the creator, protected by the 9th Amendment's enumerated rights in the Constitution.

I can't believe how blind a person has to be to believe this. How convoluted. God has given you the right to own property, so you must protect it with guns. Therefore God himself gave you the right to bear arms? First off where in ANY Holy text does a supreme being give you the right to property ownership?

[edit on 3-9-2004 by TrueLies]

Originally posted by intrepid
[
OK Bro, let's throw out the stats. Using the logic you've applied here, I would come back that if it's a Constitional thing, even the spirit of said document, let's use the tools they were refering to, muskets. The Constitution gave every American the right to bear muskets and shot pistols.

Nope buddy that wont fly, it says the right to bear ARMS which is commanly taken to mean guns but I think an arguement COULD even be made for RPGs and LAWs but thats another arguement

That would be like saying we have freedom of speech as long as its wrote ONLY with a quill pen.

You could use the same arguement to say that freedom of speech doesnt count on the internet or TV or even on the telephone because they didnt have these back then