Muslims against crusades - BANNED (UK)

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by PsykoOps
Freedom and liberty for everyone! Free speech and expression! Yippeee (does not apply to you if you are of the islamic faiths).

No, Britain has laws against inciting religious or racial hatred. The Muslims Against Crusades group have crossed that line on many occasions, and have quite rightly been outlawed.

Now, hopefully the EDL will be next.

I'd rather see the EDL taken over by its cultural moderates.

reply to post by mr-lizard


So what that they want their own law? Every political and religious faction wants their own laws.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by PsykoOps
Freedom and liberty for everyone! Free speech and expression! Yippeee (does not apply to you if you are of the islamic faiths).

No, Britain has laws against inciting religious or racial hatred. The Muslims Against Crusades group have crossed that line on many occasions, and have quite rightly been outlawed.

Now, hopefully the EDL will be next.

I can't believe you want to ban all these groups. Both the EDL and MAC are abhorrent and offensive in my book, but surely we are sensible enough to allow free speech in this country. Next thing you know, when you feel strongly enough to want to protest about something you'll find it's been banned.

Letting groups like EDL and MAC protest just exposes them to the general public as the morons they are. The more people see the more they will dislike.

Originally posted by Aeons
I'd rather see the EDL taken over by its cultural moderates.

Very funny.

The cultural moderates amongst the white English community wouldn't touch the EDL with a barge-pole. Just as most British Muslims would baulk at the rhetoric that the MAC spews forth.

The EDL are just a group for has-been football hooligans, who are desperately trying to recreate their halcyon days of running with a hooligan firm.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Only they do have a component of them, and they also had a component of non-whites in them.

All of these groups are having the same damn problem - they get taken over by the violent white-pride people and in doing so they shoot themselves in the head.

The laws against inciting hatred are there for a reason. These groups are there to stir the pot and create tensions. They get off on instigating an ''us vs them'' clash, and are only too eager to create divisions in society for normal, everyday Britons who just want to get along with their lives.

They're not being banned because people disagree with their views, but because of how they are going about it.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
Letting groups like EDL and MAC protest just exposes them to the general public as the morons they are. The more people see the more they will dislike.

If only that were correct. :shk:

The MAC have only about 200 members, yet have filled column inch after column inch of The Daily Express, Daily Fail, The Sun and even more esteemed publications.

The general reaction hasn't been, ''look at those backwardass, knuckle-dragging MAC members'', but more of an increase in hostility towards the 99.9% of British Muslims who don't belong to the MAC.

The same will have happened in Muslim communities with the EDL. They'll see hostile, aggressive demonstrations from white people, which will lead to a more isolationist response within their communities for protection, and more suspicion towards the vast majority of white English people who don't share the EDL views.

It's a no-win situation, but stopping these idiots before they start is the lesser of two evils in the long run.

reply to post by Aeons


I know they have some non-white members. Guramit Singh - who's high up in the EDL - lives in my city, and he's a bit of a cock.

Islamophobia does occur in the Hindu and Sikh communities as well, so it's not surprising that there are a few Asians who join the group.

It can't be denied, though, that the EDL is largely a racist organisation, and I'm sure they welcome non-whites with open arms in a ''see, we're not racist, we've even got a couple of Pakis, er, I mean, Asians in our group'' kind of way.

I fully support this move, it is upsetting to watch groups like this disturb our traditions, I have no problem with banning groups like this, I actively support it.

Just a quick note to the OP, I My grandfather died during WWII, he was Scottish, not English but would have said he died for Brittan. That is why It gets on my nerves when I see people talking about England like it’s the only part of Brittan that matters, you mean “we British are very tolerant”

reply to post by Freeborn


Thank you for your intelligent disagreement. While I'll not pretend that tolerance is abundant in the US, I will say that the rule of the crown in its territories has a colorful history. I'm not saying that France, Spain, Italy, and any number of countries are storied in "Tolerance" either. I'm glad to see that your government for once isn't up to entertaining the absurd notion that a group of foreign immigrants should be able to disrespect the history of the United Kingdom and its veterans and citizens. I wish our government would stop some of these disrespectful acts going on here like the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

Wont they just set up under a different name, remember MAC was Islam4UK before that group was banned.

Yeah probably.
But hopefully in the short term it's put a stop to the planned demo on Sunday - that could have been ugly if it had gone ahead and wouldn't have done anyone any favours.

The long term objective has got to be the elimination of these extremist elements from British society.
How exactly we go about doing that is a very difficult question and it will take greater minds than mine to solve - but it does require a level of openness, honesty and integrity that is sadly very rare at present.

Best thing to have done would have been to ignore the group from the beginning instead of giving them so much air time and column inches in the press

Ignoring anything doesn't make it go away, that's just burying one's head in the sand and failing to report their actions is a form of censorship and is a failure to report the truth to the people of the country.
Whilst I may not like what I hear I still want the facts and realities of world events being reported to me as impartially as possible.

I dislike the banning of anything - but I think it's fair to say that it's their own actions that has got them banned and not their beliefs.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes

there is no evidence to suggest ''increasingly large sections of Muslim communities'' disregard British law.

Increasing numbers of Muslims are beginning to support organisations like Muslims Against Crusades, as extremist interpretations of Islam incease their influence within Muslim communities.
British mosques are increasingly coming under the influence of various extremist groups and we are seeing an increase in the number of home-grown terrorists.

And why else is there a higher percentage of Muslims in UK prisons than any other group?

And please don't say because of institutionalised racism - great strides have been made to eradicate that evil practice etc from British law etc - if anything it's harder to gain a conviction as the evidence has to be cast iron otherwise claims of racial discrimination are pretty swift.

Why are you singling out criminally minded Muslims who are doing this, yet giving a free pass to the criminally minded non-Muslims who are doing exactly the same ?

Because as you know there are large numbers of Muslim immigrants who automatically qualify for benefits and are granted the same freedoms and rights as anyone else in this country and then try to take advantage of those freedoms and rights to try and completely change the very nature and fabric of the society that has offered them sanctuary, impose their draconian belief system upon it and deny us the very freedoms they have exploited!

I've never said all Muslims.

And I don't see Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Animalist, Pagan, Wiccan, Satanism, Athiest or any other religious denomination immigrants trying to do it.
Do you?

But criminals are criminals, end of.

When have British Muslims done this

Selective editing there Sherlock.

I said 'actively seek' and there are numerous attempts at doing this and there have been countless number of occassions where Muslims have clearly stated that this is their wish.

Do you deny this?

Surely being someone who takes an active interest in these matters you have seen the placards statingthe desire to impose Sharia, overthrow evil democracy etc and surely you've see interviews with Anjem Choudray and his like openly stating his desire to do the same?

That they haven't succeeded yet has nothing to do with the apologists and PC brigade who actively turn a blind eye to the implications if these people are allowed to succeed - your cherished support of their freedom of speech etc will mean nothing as they promptly deny you of all the freedoms they have enjoyed.

I am not an alarmist who believes Britain is about to crumble under the imminent Muslim extremist tide - but I am aware of the threat they pose and I believe the problem should be addressed now when we still have time and before bloody confrontation is inevitable.

You've read my posts in other threads and if you had paid any attention, not that there is any particular reason why you should have done, you would be aware that I have many friends of different races, creeds and nationalities etc, even Muslims - it's not Muslims I dislike, it's Islam and in paticular radical interpretations of it which I dislike.
I hope you can understand the differentiation.

reply to post by PsykoOps

Freedom and liberty for everyone! Free speech and expression! Yippeee (does not apply to you if you are of the islamic faiths).

Yeah.

Pretty ironic that given their way the first thing these extremists would do is deny you those very same freedoms and liberties you espouse for them!

And how about one law, fair and just for all.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

Well I guess it gives Theresa May some brownie points, she needs all the help she can get after such a crappy week.

Yeah, thought about that myself.
Quite convenient for her isn't it.

And most unusual for this government to do something the vast majority of us wish them to do.

reply to post by Aeons

I'd rather see the EDL taken over by its cultural moderates

I used to have some hope for EDL.
Alas they are mainly just a bunch of wannabe or crap football hooligans who weren't really up for it back in the day it counted for something and just seem interested in singing crap songs and wearing snide Stone Island.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes

The cultural moderates amongst the white English community wouldn't touch the EDL with a barge-pole. Just as most British Muslims would baulk at the rhetoric that the MAC spews forth.

Some common ground.

The EDL are just a group for has-been football hooligans, who are desperately trying to recreate their halcyon days of running with a hooligan firm.

Trust me Sherlock, the majority are 'never were's' and weren't worth a carrot back in the day.
They were the ra-ra's at the back doing the cheer-leading.
Recreate the halcyon days?
They weren't there mate - I assure you.

Originally posted by Freeborn
Increasing numbers of Muslims are beginning to support organisations like Muslims Against Crusades, as extremist interpretations of Islam incease their influence within Muslim communities.

Your comments are full of question-begging assertions, but there appears to be little of substance to corroborate them. Have you got anything to back up your ''increasing numbers'' comment ?

Originally posted by Freeborn
British mosques are increasingly coming under the influence of various extremist groups and we are seeing an increase in the number of home-grown terrorists.

Again, ''increasingly coming under the influence'' ? What do you base this on ? What marker and time period have you set to gauge where this supposed ''increased'' can be measured from ?

Originally posted by Freeborn
And why else is there a higher percentage of Muslims in UK prisons than any other group?

It's not a higher percentage of Muslims than any other group. The most over-represented religious group in British prisons are Buddhists, for your information; Buddhists make up 2.3% of the prison population, but only 0.3% of the overall UK population - making them over-represented in prison by 667%.

Those blasted Buddhist extremists not respecting our British rule of law !

Originally posted by Freeborn
And please don't say because of institutionalised racism - great strides have been made to eradicate that evil practice etc from British law etc - if anything it's harder to gain a conviction as the evidence has to be cast iron otherwise claims of racial discrimination are pretty swift.

It's because most minorities are descended from less than affluent immigrants, and consequently tend to reside in some of the more high-crime areas of British cities.

You would have to compare non-Muslims of similar socio-economic backgrounds to see whether there was any greater propensity for Muslims to commit crimes than their non-Muslim counterparts in similar circumstances.

Originally posted by Freeborn
Because as you know there are large numbers of Muslim immigrants who automatically qualify for benefits and are granted the same freedoms and rights as anyone else in this country and then try to take advantage of those freedoms and rights to try and completely change the very nature and fabric of the society that has offered them sanctuary, impose their draconian belief system upon it and deny us the very freedoms they have exploited!

What ? Muslims aren't automatically granted benefits ! They are entitled to the same benefits as everyone else.

Once again, you have made a big claim without backing it up with cold, hard facts.

Originally posted by Freeborn
I've never said all Muslims.

And I don't see Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Animalist, Pagan, Wiccan, Satanism, Athiest or any other religious denomination immigrants trying to do it.
Do you?

I don't see Muslims doing it, either. In fact, I'm pretty sure if you apply for benefits, the religion of the applicant is not recorded or relevant, so I have no idea where you'd get your information to form that opinion.

Originally posted by Freeborn
I said 'actively seek' and there are numerous attempts at doing this and there have been countless number of occassions where Muslims have clearly stated that this is their wish.

Do you deny this?

Of course there are some who actively seek to impose Sharia Law - as is their legal right to do so. All extremist cranks of any religious or political persuasion can advocate a change in the direction they would like to see.

Britain will never have a justice system based on Sharia Law. The idea is preposterous.

Originally posted by Freeborn
Surely being someone who takes an active interest in these matters you have seen the placards statingthe desire to impose Sharia, overthrow evil democracy etc and surely you've see interviews with Anjem Choudray and his like openly stating his desire to do the same?

I'm pretty sure the MAC members number only a few hundred. Probably less than the National Front. I don't assume that all white people are violent racists because of the messages displayed by the NF.

Originally posted by Freeborn
You've read my posts in other threads and if you had paid any attention, not that there is any particular reason why you should have done, you would be aware that I have many friends of different races, creeds and nationalities etc, even Muslims - it's not Muslims I dislike, it's Islam and in paticular radical interpretations of it which I dislike.
I hope you can understand the differentiation.

I never accused you of having ulterior motives for your views. I think that you've just sub-consciously bought into the media propaganda and hysteria about Muslims, which has begun after the 11th of September attacks.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
I fully support this move, it is upsetting to watch groups like this disturb our traditions, I have no problem with banning groups like this, I actively support it.

Just a quick note to the OP, I My grandfather died during WWII, he was Scottish, not English but would have said he died for Brittan. That is why It gets on my nerves when I see people talking about England like it’s the only part of Brittan that matters, you mean “we British are very tolerant”

Sorry didn't mean to offend, but the last time I mentioned Britain I got told off by a Scotsman, who told me - actually you mean England NOT Britain.

So it seems I can't win. But absolute respect to everyone in the UK, who's grandparents and parents fought for out lands.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Unfortunately none of the Channel 4 programmes I would like to link to are on 4oD.
They are all in the Dispatches series;
Britains Islamic Republic
Undercover Mosque.
The Return. Undercover Mosque.

But no doubt you believe that's all biased, bigotted propoganda.

If I had time I would search them out on YouTube but as I am babysitting my 11month old Grandson tonight I don't think I'll have the time until much later on tonight or possibly some time tomorrow to reply to you with as much depth and consideration I would like to and which you deserve.

I would just like to point out that if it's not an 'increasing' amount of mosques which are coming under extremist control and spreading their vile interpretation of Islam to 'increasing' numbers of Muslims then there has always been a quite significant proportion of them that always has been doing so - maybe that minority may not be quite as small as you and others would have us believe.

But of course you're not prepared to even consider that as it goes against your established viewpoint....I mean, you couldn't be wrong.......could you???

As I said before - I don't buy into the Britain is about to be subjected to Sharia bollocks, it's ridiculous - but I do recognise the threat of creeping Islamification and believe that we need to address it now before it get's worse.
Burying one's head in the sand will not make it go away.

ETA.
Just like to add how I've noticed that you cherry pick what you reply to - I take it from that there must be quite a bit of what I post that you agree with or perhaps just have no answer to?

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes


The MAC have only about 200 members.

The general reaction hasn't been, ''look at those backwardass, knuckle-dragging MAC members'', but more of an increase in hostility towards the 99.9% of British Muslims who don't belong to the MAC.

The same will have happened in Muslim communities with the EDL. They'll see hostile, aggressive demonstrations from white people, which will lead to a more isolationist response within their communities for protection, and more suspicion towards the vast majority of white English people who don't share the EDL views.

Islamophobia does occur in the Hindu and Sikh communities as well, so it's not surprising that there are a few Asians who join the group.

It's because most minorities are descended from less than affluent immigrants, and consequently tend to reside in some of the more high-crime areas of British cities.

Your comments are full of question-begging assertions, but there appears to be little of substance to corroborate them.

What do you base this on ?

Once again, you have made a big claim without backing it up with cold, hard facts.

Your comments are full of question-begging assertions, but there appears to be little of substance to corroborate them.

What do you base this on ?

Once again, you have made a big claim without backing it up with cold, hard facts.

Begging-the-Question is a wonderfully common logic fallacy used all the time by those refusing to deal rationally with culture clash. Strawman, Tu-Quoque (or Et-Tu Brute) are also used regularly.

Surely people like this should be deported if found guilty,

If they hate the UK so much, why the # are they here?

Let em have a go at the Remembrance on 11 Nov. The extremists are doing this for publicity but they will be turning off a number of their own people.

I can't remember WW II being based on religion - there was all mixes fighting and dieing. Remembrance for me (and I may be naive) is now about the futlility of war, posing a reminder to the congregation of people (from both sides) who lose their lives in modern wars as well as WW II.
.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
English people are a very tolerant people, but you shouldn't push us.

That's funny because both parts are incorrect. We aren't tolerant, really. We're very narrow minded as a nation, and we don't value individualism in society, we expect people to toe the line and conform. And we've let ourselves be pushed around so many times lately I can't even count.

Originally posted by Flyer
Surely people like this should be deported if found guilty,

If they hate the UK so much, why the # are they here?

60 Shariah nations. Lots to choose from. One or two of them don't completely suck.