Luna Cognita video: A clandestine (top Secret) Apollo 12 EVA!

I found that presentation very interesting, especially the parts on the space suites. The Luna photo, I could not see the flag pole shadow, and the suite legs shadow did not look' bulky' enough to me.

The only mystery I am aware of concerning APOLLO 12 deals with the spent 3rd stage of the Saturn V
booster It was orginally designed to be steered close to the moon and use the moon's gravity to kick it
out of earths gravity into a solar orbit. After the Apollo spacecraft had separated the 3rd stage secondary
propulsion system was supposed to fire and send it on its trajectory toward the moon.

Starting with Apollo 13 the spent stage were crashed into the moon as part of scientific experiments using
seismographs left by earlier missions.

Unfortunately the burn was too long and the rocket overshoot the desired trajectory and entered an eccentric
orbit

J002E3 is the designation given to a supposed asteroid discovered by amateur astronomer Bill Yeung on September 3, 2002. Further examination revealed the object was not a rock asteroid but instead the S-IVB third stage of the Apollo 12 Saturn V rocket (serial S-IVB-507).[

The only other explanation was that it was the S-IVB third stage for Apollo 12. NASA had originally planned to direct the S-IVB into a solar orbit, but an extra long burn of the ullage motors meant that venting the remaining propellant in the tank of the S-IVB did not give the rocket stage enough energy to escape the Earth–Moon system, and instead the stage ended up in a semi-stable orbit around the Earth after passing by the Moon on November 18, 1969. The Apollo 12 S-IVB eventually vanished.

en.wikipedia.org...

Or...

The two were busy looking out the window, comparing it with their maps.

Perhaps they were a bit frustrated because they had been taught to expect the shadows on the images used to make their maps were supposed to be from largish boulders but were actually smallish craters.

And just maybe they were also making astronomical sightings out the windows toward the horizon to estimate latitude and longitude.

I know this is going to sound far-fetched but, maybe they even complained, after the mission, about spending twenty minutes doing this frustrating and meticulous work, calling it "ridiculous" when all they needed to do (and wanted to do) was go outside and see what they could see-- and then and only then, could they confirm where they were.

But I just read the debriefing transcript, so my mind has been poisoned by the... no, "poisoned" is not the right word... uh, yes... NOURISHED by the obvious truth.

But if you throw the words, "sanitized transcripts" and "covert" into an hour of monologue often enough, you might just start to suspect there is something dark going on.

Oh, and about the new CapCom's, "Well done?" Maybe it was because it was the first chance that man had had to congratulate them on a safe and successful landing on the moon?

I mean, I suppose it is possible that he was congratulating them on successfully negotiating overnight rates well below what NASA had budgeted to pay the moon-people... but I kind of like my interpretation better.

I would say that I want my hour back that I spent watching that video, but I actually enjoyed the technical information and graphics which made up the majority of it.

reply to post by pikestaff

The Luna photo, I could not see the flag pole shadow, and the suite legs shadow did not look' bulky' enough to me.

This is all easily explained by angles, camera height, perspective and the fact that the Lunar surface was not perfectly flat.

You can see this for yourself....go to a beach, or any area of dirt, and pick a spot that is not perfectly flat.

Erect a pole, make it the diameter of the one used on the Moon (3/4 inch):

www.nasm.si.edu...

Other (Pole 1): 5ft 2in. x 3/4in. (157.48 x 1.91cm)
Other (Pole 2): 4ft 2in. x 3/4in. (127 x 1.91cm)

Take pictures, with camera at about chest height. Do it from different distances, or try to re-create the angle and distance seen in the Apollo photo......

A thought occurred over night, so I have a question.

I am wondering what the first use of the term, "Stand-up EVA" might be. Anyone?

In the debriefing in December of 1969, Alan Bean, speaking about that time-frame of the mission, said...

Our plan was to land, discuss where we were for a few minutes, and then make some out-the-window evaluations.

I would recommend on the next trip that you make a quick evaluation, knowing that you may not be precisely right. Then make a quick judgment of the general geological features out the window. Don't spend more than 5 minutes, at the most, on it, because the minute you get out, all these guesses that you were making through the window will be either right or wrong.

You can walk behind the LM and look back like Pete did and find that you're standing right next to the Surveyor crater. I think we spent 20 minutes here that we could have better used getting out and getting to work.

There is more in the debriefing about their frustration in that activity of looking out of the windows trying to locate their landing site with precision. And, here, we have his recommendation that future missions keep it down to five minutes or less and then be allowed to go outside of the LEM to do the orientation work.

But key, in that quote, are the following:

- It was 20 minutes (matching the comm break)
- It was looking out the window
- It was not until Pete Conrad was behind the LEM on the surface that they knew they knew for sure that they were on the rim of the Surveyor crater.

All three of those points contradict the suggestion of a "clandestine/Covert S-EVA." A report written after Apollo 15 in which an S-EVA was planned and conducted (perhaps the first use of the term S-EVA), could easily be an assumption the writer producing the report made that this method was used in Apollo 12. We would need to know the familiarity of the author of that report with the differences between the early missions and the later ones.

My thinking is that Bean's suggestion in the debriefing was what resulted in the Stand-up EVA of Apollo 15 (with Apollo 13 and 14 too far along in planning and training to include in the mission plan).

The video indicates the heavy use of "weasel words," especially when considering that the S-EVA is a theory.

* the 2006 report is "extremely revealing."
* that only two EVA's were conducted "is a LIE."
* "covert means of communication" (in place of "private channel")
* "Most shockingly"
* "accidentally acknowledged" (in place of "said")
* "clandestine"
* "blatantly admitting" (in place of "said")
* "operation?" (in place of "task")
* "keep the global public totally ignorant of the fact" (in place of, "not make reference to such a theorized task")

Still, the theory is interesting speculation, but lacks a discussion as to "Why?"

Why would such a simple thing, if it occurred, be a guarded secret? Videos of UFO's, I suppose, are supposed to be hints to the viewer of a possible answer; but nothing substantial is given. If it happened, far more mundane reasons can be conceived for the secrecy as well as the "secret communications."


Now, as for the "secret communications:"

The "private channel" is fairly well known. Alan Shepherd's full bladder problem, was made well known in The Right Stuff and is an example of public familiarity with the private channel.

Personal needs, hygiene, eating, and talking with family members are obvious uses. However, as the video mentions Aldrin's confirmation that much was scripted or at least rehearsed-- NASA was careful to be in a position to hide any mistakes that would embarrass the astronauts in the public eye. With Apollo 12, NASA very much wanted to brag on the piloting of the astronauts to land with precision. Until that precision could be confirmed, the verification was done on private channel. Whether through the window or out the top hatch, that hardly begs discussion of aliens.

As I wrote previously, the transcripts and debriefing are in agreement-- that is, that during this long comm break, the astronauts are doing platform alignment work-- sighting stars and entering the data into the computer. The program input takes little time-- it is the sighting which requires time. So when Pete mistakenly enters one piece of data and has to start over, it is only a few simple sequences to be re-typed.

Reading both before and after the portion of the transcript supplied in the video supports the scheduled activity IS what is taking place. The two astronauts are consistently misjudging distances-- until they ask Houston how long the LEM's shadow is supposed to be.

Pete expresses shock that the LEM shadow is supposed to be between 230 and 250 feet long-- thinking it was much shorter than that. With the new perspective, the location is more easily estimated. Essentially, craters he took to be 60' across are actually 250' across and so now match the craters on the map he is using.

reply to post by Frira

What an excellent post!

You make as many compelling arguments against the S-EVA as Luna Cognita made in favor of the S-EVA. And Proudbird's speculative answer about why they might have wanted to keep it secret is as good as any, IF the standup EVA actually happened, though I'm not convinced it did. Proudbird mentioned the PR angle which you also touched on in your post.

Posts like yours are one of the reasons I like ATS, because it allows me to see different perspectives on the same incident.

Originally posted by Frira
A thought occurred over night, so I have a question.

I am wondering what the first use of the term, "Stand-up EVA" might be. Anyone?

I'd be guessing, but it most probably was invented during the Gemini missions, before Ed White did his 'spacewalk' - where a "stand up EVA" would be to open the door of the Gemini capsule, and poke your head out while standing up... but not actually go outside.


Edit - seems to actually have been after Ed White's spacewalk.
Gemini 10, with Michael Collins.

... where Collins would 'stand' in the open hatch and take some photographs of stars...

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
reply to post by Frira

 

What an excellent post!

You make as many compelling arguments against the S-EVA as Luna Cognita made in favor of the S-EVA. And Proudbird's speculative answer about why they might have wanted to keep it secret is as good as any, IF the standup EVA actually happened, though I'm not convinced it did. Proudbird mentioned the PR angle which you also touched on in your post.

Posts like yours are one of the reasons I like ATS, because it allows me to see different perspectives on the same incident.

Thank you. I liked Proudbird's speculation as well.

And if I haven't yet made the point-- I consider the video worth watching but for the good detail about the suits, packs, communication, layout of the LEM interior, and such. I've been trying to find data on the Alighnment Telescope and its use.

Even when I don't find the conclusions drawn persuasive, new data or old data in a new light sends me off into enjoyable research. I like that. It is not like someone is going to ask me, "Say, do you happen know how many detentes were used on the alignment telescope used in the LEM?" and I can say, "I think it is eight." So without any likely use, I still like to know.

Originally posted by alfa1

Originally posted by Frira
A thought occurred over night, so I have a question.

I am wondering what the first use of the term, "Stand-up EVA" might be. Anyone?

I'd be guessing, but it most probably was invented during the Gemini missions, before Ed White did his 'spacewalk' - where a "stand up EVA" would be to open the door of the Gemini capsule, and poke your head out while standing up... but not actually go outside.


Edit - seems to actually have been after Ed White's spacewalk.
Gemini 10, with Michael Collins.

... where Collins would 'stand' in the open hatch and take some photographs of stars...

edit on 12-11-2011 by alfa1 because: (no reason given)

Excellent. Thank you.

I just found a 1968 NASA publication using the term for Gemini 10 and 12.

reply to post by Frira


You may also wish to find Gene Cernan's biography, and read his harrowing experience with his Gemini mission spacewalk. For all those out there who keep shouting "NASA lies!", you will love it.

Of course, a rational and thoughtful mind will realize that sometimes the full details of events that don't go exactly as planned are kept 'in-house', and referred to for better experiences next time. After all, space exploration IS about learning as-you-go sometimes. Same as any cutting-edge endeavors....since the Wright Brothers.....

Ce rnan's biography: "The Last Man on the Moon: Astronaut Eugene Cernan and America's Race in Space"

From the Wikipedia account:

EVA
On the third day Cernan finally reached the rear of the spacecraft and began to check and prepare the AMU. This took longer than planned due to lack of hand and foot holds. He was unable to gain any leverage which made it hard to turn valves or basically any movement. All this was made worse when after sunset, his faceplate fogged up. His pulse soared to about 195 beats per minute. The flight surgeon on the ground feared he would lose consciousness.
At this point Cernan decided that there was considerable risk in continuing the EVA. He had poor visibility from within his spacesuit and had found that he could not move very well. He would have to disconnect himself from the umbilical that attached him to the Gemini (though would still be attached by a longer thinner lead), after he had connected himself to the AMU. But when he had finished with the AMU he would somehow have to take the thing off with one hand, while the other held onto the spacecraft. He decided to cancel the rest of the EVA, with Tom Stafford and the Mission Controllers concurring.

en.wikipedia.org...


From the NASA online history "book" On the Shoulders of Titans: A History of Project Gemini


Story of the Gemini IX EVA, the "An Angry Alligator" segment, from Chapter 14:

He was startled to find that everything took longer than he had assumed it would from his experience in simulations. Cernan said he really had no idea how to work in slow motion at orbital speeds. Every movement of an arm or leg in free space exacted a reaction from his body.Minute forces that would scarcely be noticed in Earth's gravity upset his equilibrium in space. He had only to twitch his fingers to set his body in motion. On []Gemini IV, White had commented on the need for handholds. Now Cernan found that even those installed on Spacecraft 9 were inadequate and that the Velcro was not strong enough to keep his body in position as he edged back toward the adapter. He had to fight the limited mobility of his space suit, and the effort taxed his strength. He constantly referred to the umbilical as the "snake."