Official Story Shill Crushed By Truther/Researcher in Radio Debate!

Originally posted by Varemia
My only concern was the things that they had forgotten, and whether they were remembering things correctly. It was a good point that the plane wouldn't have been visible through the gas station for the one officer, and I've wondered if maybe he was on the opposite side of the station, but it's not a solid enough explanation for me to use as evidence.

There is CCTV video that proves Lagasse was on that side as he claims.

reply to post by trebor451


Answer my question first please.

Originally posted by GenRadek
reply to post by LaBTop

 

You have a critical issue though:

How did they manage to angle the airliner's debris inside the Pentagon to correspond with the SoC flight path as viewed by majority of witnesses? You are proposing a perpendicular impact to the Pentagon but the debris does not go straight in line with the impact. You can post hundreds of posts of minute details that allegedly prove a "NoC" flightpath, but on impact, your story falls apart. How did they angle the impact damage and debris and have the airliner debris end up at the "exit" hole?

edit on 12/1/2011 by GenRadek because: (no reason given)

No, logic tells us I am right, and you have a critical issue to answer.

This whole thread and the ones I cross-linked to, and my PfT sole thread there, is loaded with NoC witnesses, who nearly all saw an impact too.
You can perhaps come up with no more than a handful quasi-SoC witnesses. Which will be thoroughly destroyed by CIT, I have no doubt. (CIT act as my enemies from the moment I told them their fly-over theory is wrong, however, I still support their NoC work, but not their fly-over CONCLUSION, based on no own flight experienced, but the words of PfT owner Balsamo, who can't be trusted. He makes too many mistakes and is reluctant to admit them publicly).

Logic tells us then, that the thus wrong internal damage path MUST then be faked.
And I repeat, at forehand planned and executed by explosions or otherwise, at or just before or after impact.

Because there was a reason for the Pentagon attack. The ONI office, every other agency feared like hell.
It had to be gone, to stop them to publish later in time, their recording of the events of 9/11, which were not happening as later explained.
And the missing from the Pentagon's several years budgets, its 3 trillion dollars, and the accountancy auditors and their mainframes, working at that immense task to unravel all these military black budget operations, paid by these 3 trillion dollars. Of course a lot of Pentagon brass must have pocketed parts of this sum.
And don't come back with the "files backup" non-issue, there was no backup from the work of these auditors, the only one, in the WTC7 building its Secret Service offices, was destroyed at collapse....as reported at ATS.

The NoC flight path told by so many witnesses is one of the strongest pieces amid all other evidence that the story as pushed by mainstream media is false (as instructed by who? You decide), and then the government institutions were instructed too, to confirm to that false SoC pushed flight path.
That's why the Pentagon Building Performance Report came up with that internal damage path (60.25° true north).
Problem with that report : they were not allowed inside or outside the Pentagon grounds, until 30 October, when all the internal rubble was already removed and the whole crime scene was meticulously cleaned up.

EDIT : or 30 September, not sure. But time enough to clean up all plane rubble inside the collapsed portion, and move parts of it to other spots. The first possible parts moving operation by panicking planners, who directly saw that their planned last part of the 60.25° SoC flight path had been abandoned by the remotely steered plane (yes, the professionally remotely controlled theory ) would be the period that ALL external first responders were ordered out because a second attack plane was nearing Washington. The other two periods that they again all were ordered out the next morning could have been the last details filling in operation.

All this theorizing is based on the solid evidence from too many sources, that the SoC path can't be true.

EDIT2 : The only clearly recognizable plane debris, so to see photographed shortly after or on the day of 9/11 is the front wheel landing gear strut, a massive heavy part, which ended up photographed near but still inside, that famous "exit" hole in Ring C's outer wall at the inner A-E drive (which was clearly a wall breach unit effect, used from inside the A-E drive). One would expect such heavy part to end up UNDER all that rubble you see in that photo, caused by that strut to fall down, but it ended up on top of that heap of rubble. Which is strange.
The other part was the segment of a cooing ring from a jet motor, also easily movable by the planners.
If you know of any other obvious plane debris photographed on or just after 9/11, post it here.

Remember my post?.

Did no one see the significance of those two LAST radar returns in my linked to, huge circling maneuver picture?





Did the 80RADES team really decide to choose the southern spot instead of the northern spot as the real last return?
But that last southern spot was recorded by the Reagan National Airport radar dish 12 SECONDS LATER.
Exactly one full radar dish revolution of 360° around its axle, later.

Close-up from the Radar disk at Reagan National Airport near the Pentagon. It is situated at the south tip of the airport "island", near the waterfront, and to the right of runway nr 1 starting position :





Radar disk position REAGAN National Airport. Aerial overview of the radar disk position at REAGAN National Airport its south tip near the waterfront. :





Thus the plane should have been still steadily flying on, already far past the Pentagon, flying east and above Washington DC. If you believe that time stamp. Which is of course in full disharmony with the other, just a few tenth of meters but northernly, last radar signal-return spot nr 21.

Brainstorming intermezzo for alternative scenario proponents :

The problem is, I do not know if 80RADES used perhaps one of the other radar stations dishes data (Andrews, Dulles etc) to insert that anomalous southernly spot nr 22. If they did so, then the fault margin of that beam's return signal is of course greater than from the much nearer Reagan National radar dish.
Another possibility could be, that that nr 22 spot is a radar return from some flying object registered 12 seconds later than nr 21. A big enough rocket? Which caused that SoC internal damage path? Can't be. Since it is not aimed at the west wall impact point, whatever you try.
The famous helicopter reported in the first news flashes? A stealth one perhaps that fired rockets to cause the internal SoC damage path, who lost stealth for a few seconds? I strongly doubt it. Never reported by all the Route 27 witnesses.
A bunch of Mach 3 rockets, just one time recorded by the radar dish, since they fly so fast?
I strongly doubt it, since not one witness ever reported a second impact about 10 seconds later, that could have caused thus the SoC internal damage.

Here is the (seemingly long forgotten already), by NORAD constructed flight path.
Ain't that EXACTLY the one I posted a few pages back, as my constructed NoC flight path, covering all known NoC witnesses..... like Edward Paik, Terry Morin, Sean Boger, William Lagasse and Chadwick Brooks, the 4 ANC grounds witnesses, all my Route 27 witnesses, like Steve Riskus, Christine Peterson, Penny Elgas, and Frank Probst and many more :





Below is another NORAD screenshot one. As you can see, the NORAD path is a NoC flight path, and depicts flight AAL 77 in the exact spot that Sergeant William Lagasse described in his CIT video interview. It also misses the 5 "downed" light poles.
By the way, Balsamo from PfT keeps saying that this flight path (NORAD's just as mine) can not end up in an impact. Well, NORAD seem to think different.
Must be a bunch of incompetent clowns, as Balsamo likes to express himself regarding any proposal for a NoC plus an impact, flight path :



This is my proposed NoC and impact flight path from a few pages back.
Compare it to the above NORAD one. Glaringly the same, ain't it.
Jeez, Balsamo, those guys must be clowns too......as you like to label any one with competing views at your PfT forums :

Continued :

If that southernly nr 22 radar return signal its time stamp would be true, then the positional data must be wrong or false.
Or the other way round, the time stamp must be wrong or false.
I option for a false time stamp, since there are too many witnesses who SAW the plane impact into the west wall first floor slab.
If false, it must be a signal from a much further away radar dish, with a much larger positional fault margin. And thus the close to the nr 21 northernly ended up radar signal position.
But why would these 80RADES guys mix up only one signal from another further away radar dish, with all the other 21 radar returns from the dish at Reagan National.?

Last two pink colored 80RADES radar return data (see list in here ) :
21. Time: 13:37:35.890 Lat: 38 52 16.862 N Lon: 077 03 48.703 W (northernly one)
22. Time: 13:37:47.810 Lat: 38 52 05.584 N Lon: 077 03 39.502 W (southernly one)

80RADES (seems to have been forced to) illogically chose the 12 seconds later in time recorded nr. 22, the most southernly spot, because that one complied with the 60.25° true north flight path, the so called SoC flight path, combined now however, with a seemingly fly-over proposed by the professionals from the 80RADES team......since they attached a twelve seconds later time stamp at it.
But the positional Lat and Lon data attached indicates it is still in front of the south wall of the Pentagon. (NOT the west wall where the real plane impacted)
From that southernly spot, it could have never impacted where all the witnesses saw it impact! In the west wall.....

Spot nr 21 however, the northernly one, has the right time stamp (two 12 seconds full radar dish revolutions after nr 20.) combined with the right Lat and Lon positional data. Which are, contrary to the nr 22 spot, right in front of the WEST wall of the Pentagon.

We see and thus know however, that we were missing one radar spot (name it 20a), critical for a choice between a NoC or a Soc flight path, the 20a last but one, "not recorded by that radar dish."
If you chose for the northernly one, then that one is exactly in the NoC flight path shown in the NTSB animation.....
Thus, the southernly, also last radar return spot, must be the missing 20a one, reflected by the Crystal City buildings in the path of the radar beam, when you believe in the SoC flight path.
That's what the 80RADES guys should have wrote in the report's accompanying letter.
But they said that it was the northernly one that bounced back from Crystal City buildings....
I find it a totally bended explanation. A radar beam is send out in a full 360° motion, when it reflects from the terrain, the trees and bushes, the buildings, and any flying subject higher in the sky, and then the radar computer calculates the time it took for the signals to return.
And shows its results on the radar operator's round screen.
How on earth can a plane flying at the 20a position, return a positional data radar return signal from a 12 seconds further position?
It means that the signal gets sent out, hits the planes side, returns to the dish.
Does anybody believe such a returning signal can keep bouncing back from two buildings for an extended time of 12 seconds? And why would such anomalies then not happen all the time and be reported in all radar operator manuals, to watch out for?

But which conspirator inside the 80RADES team decided then, to place a thus clearly false timestamp on that last but one nr 20a, presumed missing from the radar data stream recorded and saved, but so to see a high-buildings-reflected position spot nr 21 or 22...?

It's obvious that a last but one (20a), stray radar signal beam can not continue reflecting and bouncing around within the Crystal City buildings facades for a full 12 seconds, ain't it so?

And since we have the NoC witnesses at hand, brought to us by the very same NoC-and-also-fly-over proponents, we now have a Gordian Knot at our hands.
Any one named Alexander the Great in the watching crowd? To help us out with a solid answer to this nagging dilemma?

An answer by an experienced fly-over theory proponent, or an experienced impact proponent?

Originally posted by LaBTop


Logic tells us then, that the thus wrong internal damage path MUST then be faked.
And I repeat, at forehand planned and executed by explosions or otherwise, at or just before or after impact.

So on impact, the plane just disappeared, and then the magical pre-planted 757 debris was then shot out of special cannons on an angle to line up with the "SoC" flight path and had the debris end up in line with the "SoC" path? WOW!

I have seen Truthers like you. You are better than most of them as you certainly done your homework. For that I give you much credit. You started out very strongly, however, as all Truthers do, end up smacking into the same wall upon closer inspection and fall apart. Let's begin:

So, you are so certain of this "NoC" flightpath, based on a few eyewitnesses who by now are seen as suspect or mistaken. You claim the plane impacted following the "NoC" flight path, however the light poles and the internal damage do not line up with your new path.

So, now you are so sure to have proven a "NoC" flightpath based on three(?) eyewitnesses, but now you need to give us an explanation of how they managed to stage the lamp posts and the clipped VDOT Camera tower, and the destruction and debris inside the Pentagon and how they managed to channel or fake the debris inside while blocking the actual airplane's impact debris from going through the Pentagon perpendicular.



Your initial argument was very convincing, hell, very well detailed. But in order for your idea to work, the laws of physics must be suspended in the end in order to have the airliner's debris go on an angle after impacting nearly 90 degrees.



Maybe you can show us evidence of giant angled walls that were installed to act like a chute for the airliner's debris to go on this angle. Or how they managed to stop the perpendicular impact's debris from reaching the far inner wall.

The NoC flight path told by so many witnesses is one of the strongest pieces amid all other evidence that the story as pushed by mainstream media is false (as instructed by who? You decide), and then the government institutions were instructed too, to confirm to that false SoC pushed flight path.
That's why the Pentagon Building Performance Report came up with that internal damage path (60.25° true north).
Problem with that report : they were not allowed inside or outside the Pentagon grounds, until 30 October, when all the internal rubble was already removed and the whole crime scene was meticulously cleaned up.

Really? Do you have any proof of this? They managed to clean up the actual impact area and then shift and destroy the non-damaged side in a month or two? WOW! Simply amazing. I'm sure you are going to have some actual back up of this rather than just taking your word. Oh yes and what about those first responders that went in to recover bodies and airliner debris? Did the location of bodies shift as well? What about the area that would have been directly behind the perpendicular impact? What about the light poles? How the hell did they manage to plant them right smack dab in the middle of a traffic jam with not a soul noticing?

EDIT : or 30 September, not sure. But time enough to clean up all plane rubble inside the collapsed portion, and move parts of it to other spots. The first possible parts moving operation by panicking planners, who directly saw that their planned last part of the 60.25° SoC flight path had been abandoned by the remotely steered plane (yes, the professionally remotely controlled theory ) would be the period that ALL external first responders were ordered out because a second attack plane was nearing Washington. The other two periods that they again all were ordered out the next morning could have been the last details filling in operation.

Well, when the square peg doesnt fit the circle hole, beat it until it does. I like fairy tales too. But now you are going the same route as the rest of the Truthers and creating a Rube-Goldberg style of events that are so meticulous and so complicated, that if one were to sneeze, the jig is up.

reply to post by LaBTop

And the missing from the Pentagon's several years budgets, its 3 trillion dollars, and the accountancy auditors and their mainframes, working at that immense task to unravel all these military black budget operations, paid by these 3 trillion dollars. Of course a lot of Pentagon brass must have pocketed parts of this sum.
And don't come back with the "files backup" non-issue, there was no backup from the work of these auditors, the only one, in the WTC7 building its Secret Service offices, was destroyed at collapse....as reported at ATS.

Ah yes, of course. The gem of Truther's inability to reading comprehension. The "missing trillions".

We've been over this trillions of times. That was regarding the fact that the financial systems in the Pentagon are so antiquated and incompatible with each other, its very hard to access the "trillions" of dollars in transactions.

To refresh faded memories:

Our financial systems are decades old. According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions. We cannot share information from floor to floor in this building because it's stored on dozens of technological systems that are inaccessible or incompatible. We maintain 20 to 25 percent more base infrastructure than we need to support our forces, at an annual waste to taxpayers of some $3 billion to $4 billion. Fully half of our resources go to infrastructure and overhead, and in addition to draining resources from warfighting, these costly and outdated systems, procedures and programs stifle innovation as well.

A little while ago I posted in a thread that mentioned the offices that were impacted and I found some interesting results:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I dont see any accounting offices, but I do see this:

Army Office of Administrative Assistant
www.oaa.army.mil...

Here are the offices again:



Now explain just why they would stick the records of the entire DoD budget in the US Navy Office or the "Army - Office of Administrative Assistant"?

Now the Office of the Administrative Assistant to the Secretary of the Army works under the Department of the Army Resource Management. So about the only "accounting" equipment affected was Army budgets, and not the entire DoD Budget. So this does not make any sense. Since when is the Army Budget the entire DoD's budget?

But wait, according to you, the plane was off course. So then that means the plane would have missed the "records" to be destroyed. So are you saying that they needed to scramble and destroy them by hand to conform with the "pre-planned" impact route? Or they forgot just where the records were held?

You know, it kinda hard to believe they would go through all this trouble to destroy records when all they really needed was this:

reply to post by GenRadek


Also I would like to test reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. Here is the quote again:

Our financial systems are decades old. According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions. We cannot share information from floor to floor in this building because it's stored on dozens of technological systems that are inaccessible or incompatible. We maintain 20 to 25 percent more base infrastructure than we need to support our forces, at an annual waste to taxpayers of some $3 billion to $4 billion. Fully half of our resources go to infrastructure and overhead, and in addition to draining resources from warfighting, these costly and outdated systems, procedures and programs stifle innovation as well.

Now, how does the above quote, in context, become " $2.3 trillion is missing/stolen/gone/etc"? I really wish to understand this line of thinking/reasoning.

Your first 14 sentences are a perfect example of an illogical argumentation.
You mix up, in a very illogically manner, intrinsic consequences of a SoC flight path, with the intrinsic consequences of a NoC flight path. And try to make fun of my arguments to top it off. That's sadly enough, always a weak begin.

NoC acceptation means either an about 90° angled fly-over (illogical for many reasons addressed already, by me) or an about 90° angled impact (logical for many reasons, addressed already too, by me).
And an at 90° impacting plane can not take a left turn, that much you understood right.

Thus, if you slowly start to understand that that plane did not "disappeared" as you try to suggest to be my words (or your own illogical conclusion) but, in fact got caught up by the very strong, newly re-enforced west wall's steel beams and Kevlar netting inside the newly reinforced west wall, which had such an enormous "braking" effect on this NoC, thus 90° impacting and then entering plane, that in parts of a second its fuselage and wings and jet engines became a heap of metallic rubble mixed with jet fuel, entering the Ring E interior, but was so perfectly slowed down by the stretching Kevlar nets and the steel beams and the immense concrete second floor slab with all those thick re-bars in it, and not to forget all those columns in that west wall, double re-enforced with steel re-bars, that its last rubble came to rest at the end of the later collapsed section, which was against the back wall of Ring E.

Remember also the logical consequence of a 20 to 30° angled right banking NoC flight path. That plane must have flown far slower than the end speed of 540 MPH, shown in the recovered FDR.
That FDR's last seconds must have been tampered with, if you believe in the NoC flight path. Then the real end speed must have been somewhere around 250 to 300 MPH at the most.

If you understand that we have the superior reasons on our side for a NoC flight path, and the SoC proponents a few very weak ones at the most, then you can only come to one simple conclusion :

All that internal damage to the left of the later collapsed portion of Wedge 1 that covered all of the real plane debris inside that collapse, MUST have been staged, since no NoC flying, and under an angle of 90° impacting plane, can make a left turn. And a NoC incoming plane can under no circumstances clip those 5 SoC light poles, so these MUST have been staged too.
(-- more --)

Let me sum a few other things up for you :
1. The CIT NoC interviewed witnesses and the additional NoC witnesses shown by me in very long posts and a long thread at PfT do not seem to impress you. That 's not "three(?) eyewitnesses", that's a long row of additional eyewitnesses on top of the 13 ones from CIT.

Be so kind to counter seriously my, let's say 25 NoC witnesses, with your long (convincing) list of SoC witnesses, like I did for my NoC witnesses at PfT. No, not a list of just a few names and one link to that old French Bart witness list online.
Just as me, in my one allowed 7 pages long thread at PfT, a complete list with extensive quotes from which a neutral reader can make up his own mind. I also notice that you did not take the time to seriously counter my witness quotes, one by one.
Why not? Is it too difficult to bend their words in such a way, that they are becoming SoC witnesses again?

2. Have you ever asked yourself, where these two huge very heavy jet engines debris ended up?
I'll answer that for you : under the collapsed portion of Wedge I.

3. Now, these lines by you I found exceptionally illogical :

So, now you are so sure to have proven a "NoC" flightpath based on three(?) eyewitnesses, but now you need to give us an explanation of how they managed to stage the lamp posts and the clipped VDOT Camera tower, and the destruction and debris inside the Pentagon and how they managed to channel or fake the debris inside while blocking the actual airplane's impact debris from going through the Pentagon perpendicular.

My answer on that : No, you have to first counter all my NoC witnesses, and if you can convince me with solid arguments, I will reconsider my firm stand regarding the NoC flight path. If you can't convince me and the rest of our audience, than the NoC path is the most logical one, and then all its consequences become true. As they are already true in my eyes, I will not spend for now, more typing at the rest of your arguments, which I btw already addressed in my above text.

4.

Really? Do you have any proof of this? They managed to clean up the actual impact area and then shift and destroy the non-damaged side in a month or two? WOW! Simply amazing. I'm sure you are going to have some actual back up of this rather than just taking your word.

Read the first paragraphs lines of that Pentagon Damage Report, and take note who the chairman of that group of researchers was. Our old military friend, we saw doing exactly the same task after the Oklahoma bombing in 1995.
There were no passenger bodies found. Just tissue samples. And blood samples.
They had an awful long time to work on that issue after they blocked entry for non-military personnel.
The two carbon-charred bodies shown lately online, still have recognizable military suits on, and were photographed in their military chairs behind their military desks.
You know, I do think they found body parts of passengers, however only in the collapsed Wedge 1 part. And they did not publish that. And that's all logical. If they prepared for a SoC impact, and to be sure, if the actual impact would not penetrate as far as they wished (the"reasons"), they also planted explosives to be sure the "reasons" were eliminated.

5.

What about the area that would have been directly behind the perpendicular impact? What about the light poles? How the hell did they manage to plant them right smack dab in the middle of a traffic jam with not a soul noticing?

Just told you so, that area was collapsed. Just told you so, they were staged. They did not plant them as you would like them to be so immensely stupid. Of course they did that during the night and early morning of 9/11.

Your last 3 sentences in your post does not contain any logic, it has no sense to post things like that, it does not add anything constructive to any online discussion. It's a call on the uninformed.
See? I can do that too.

Still, as long as not one of you address all my NoC witnesses, in such a manner that logic will force me to accept your arguments, I still am the one with a mountain of strong arguments for a NoC path, and I see you SoC guys standing on a mole's mount.
And nearly never address the heart of the matter in a logical manner, just libel, fun and vitriol.

Be the first to really change this 9/11 online debate, address the witnesses who make the strongest case for a NoC path. And its logical consequences.

In the end, for people like these 9/11 planners, it burns down to an intellectual challenge to be able to pull it off, and return from it with no collateral damage for themselves.
(-- end --)

I have perhaps interesting news for you.
The global money generated in all countries of the world yearly (Global GDP), is about 37,000 billion dollars worth. That's 37 trillion dollars.
37,000,000,000,000 dollars.
Now, before 9/11 they had lost track of accumulated lost military funds in the USA alone.
Of around 2,300 billion dollars. That's 2.3 trillion dollars.
2,300,000,000,000 dollars.

That would solve the recent European monetary crisis, and its need for a 1,000 billion guarantee fund in the blink of an eye, and you could solve the next crisis again, and still have some change left over.

And you want us to believe that was not a real issue?
That text you quoted two times is the usual smoke curtain, when accountants need to cover their behinds. Those figures have been meticulously written down. Then they were lost.
That kind of figures are not lost, they are getting rid of.

I have been reading annual business reports, that were so doctored, that most people around me were convinced that we had to buy this firm for the price they asked for it.
I was all the time able to show them, the manner and methods they doctored their figures, with the help of "clever" accountancy firms, stocked full with snotty yuppies.
Then I bought the firm for a dime, or the owners even payed me a substantial sum, to let me get them off the hook from the IRS by taking over their real debts, instead of their doctored profits. The firms could be juveniled, and made profitable again, without the accountancy tricks so popular during the last decades.

Those 2,3 trillion were lost from the books, not out of their pockets.
They got reshuffled into black money. To pay for more and more black projects.
That quoted text is complete and utterly BS. If the systems exist, may they be old or different, you will always find the figures back. There are accountancy rules in place.
All these female victims were auditing already for two years, that means they met strong opposition, or even got told to slow down. Find out who gave the order to start that special auditing. They wanted to stop that highly lucrative black projects culture. Then find out who got the contract to audit the whole DoD. Then look into the victims lists regarding the Pentagon attack, where they mentioned their jobs.

If you keep my books for a few years, in which nobody ever asks to see or control them, why would you not be tempted to throw them away, after taking a handful of cash from the registry?
Who's gonna check you after that, with any chance to prove you guilty of wrongdoing?

By the way, reading comprehension, you said?

Source : OAA History, 1968-2002
www.oaa.army.mil...

1991-2002
September 11, 2001

On 11 September 2001, American Airlines Flight 77, one of four planes hijacked by terrorists, impacted the west side of the Pentagon. The crash destroyed the outer three rings on that side and killed 125 service members and civilians. The Administrative Assistant’s office was responsible for administrative management, maintaining official records, and managing the programs that provide service, supply, and equipment for the Department of Defense within the National Capital Region. Critical services included telecommunications -telephones and computer operations within the building -motor pool, passports, and contracting. The Administrative Assistant’s staff sustained forty of the seventy-five Army deaths. In one brief moment the office lost almost all of its financial experts and computer files, just weeks before the fiscal year ended. Working around the clock for days and employing budget analysts and accountants from other government agencies and retirees who volunteered to come back to work, Resource Services finished its end-of-year work on time. Meanwhile, the staff found workspace to make up for the 400,000 square feet destroyed and reestablished computer and telecommunications connectivity throughout the building. The extraordinary efforts of the Administrative Assistant’s staff reestablished normal operations within days and contributed to the reopening of the Pentagon on 11 September 2002.

You are better than most of them as you certainly done your homework. For that I give you much credit. You started out very strongly, --
-- Your initial argument was very convincing, hell, very well detailed. But in order for your idea to work, the laws of physics must be suspended in the end in order to have the airliner's debris go on an angle after impacting nearly 90 degrees.

I am glad to see at least the appreciation for my hard and long work, to find the exact, true history, regarding the events of 9/11.
It's a pity that you then start on a tangent to prove that my logic is not true.

Logic: Accept NoC true. Logic: Planes do not take corners. Logic: NoC equals 90° impact angle.
Logic: Plane debris must be in the NoC internal path. Can't end up to the left of it.

Illogic: NoC true, but a few relatively small parts of the plane debris ends up far to the left of the impact point and far to the left of the subsequent collapsed Wedge 1 part.
Illogic: NoC true. The 90° angled impact is true. But 5 lamp poles were downed far beside impact point, to the right side of it, far outside the reach of its right wing.

That's a pretty strong case of your illogical logic. Which you accuse me of using.

Conclusion: You must realize fast, that you are the only one, using illogical arguments.

When someone (like me) accepts the NoC path, and gives heaps of evidence that make it a fact instead of a theory, then all the internal damage left of the collapsed part is faked, and the 5 downed light poles were faked too. And then you suddenly understand the need to artificially let that part of Wedge 1 collapse, to cover up the remains of that plane laying in Wedge 1, showing its 90° angled entrance in the building. If they had not collapsed it, the whole 9/11 sham would have been immediately exposed. Do you understand that? You do not need to agree, but to understand the logic involved, when one accepts the NoC flight path.

Btw, when you accept the NoC path, how on earth do nearly all passenger tissue samples and blood samples, arrive near that Ring C its breached-in outer wall circular hole? Far left of that collapsed part.
That's really illogical, not fitting a 90° angled plane entry.

If you can give me solid evidence that the NoC path is untrue, I'll eat all my preceding words.

Originally posted by Varemia
reply to post by ThePostExaminer

 

I agree that they are certainly not irrelevant, and I'm still not quite sure how to explain it. Still, there is yet to be proof of a flyover. In fact, one of the officers that I remember was talking about the impact specifically, how the plane had yawed just before impact. I figured this was explainable because of the engine hitting the generator.

The flight path, however, has yet to be resolved as a result of the witnesses. I'm still scratching my head over it.

Fair response in at least you can see that the deeper you dig into these witness testimonies, it's far from irrelevant.

I don't want to play cat and mouse with his testimony but he is adamant that he saw the aircraft on the North side of the gas station and couldn't possibly have struck the generator.

"Obviously what I saw happened, therefore the conclusions made by people who didnt see it can be flawed...I accept the fact that there can be miscalculations on my part, but NOT whether or not the plane was on the North or South side of the gas station."

~Sgt William Lagasse after watching The PentaCon and responding to the ASCE (and ultimately Pseudoskeptics)

There are reports of a "wobble" (their word!) as the aircraft approached Route 27. Robert Turcios, also at the gas station reprorted a "lift" to get over the roadway signs to the north of the bridge.

I personally don't see how he could have even seen the trailer given the mounds in front of the Citgo that day



That and the fact that the aircraft would have had to have been crossing the road at an angle to the far right in the above image (the Route 27 underpass/bridge).

reply to post by LaBTop


And in one post, you show that you have absolutely no clue about the 2.3 trillion. Next?

Was Balsamo lying when he said it would take 11.2 gs to pull out at the Pentagon?

First off, the "11.2gs" saga has long been openly acknowledged and corrected. Years ago.

pilotsfor911truth.org...

Second, the g forces that Pilotsfor911Truth have worked on are based on the NTSB released alleged FDR data. Not the witness testimonies.

The NOC flightpath has been proven to be possible.

Was Roosevelt Roberts lying when he said he saw this "flyover" airplane over lane 1 of South Parking heading southwest?

He was obviously confused about the "southwest" reference when you take his entire testimony into account.
What needs to be explained is exactly what "commercial aircraft" he saw after the explosion.

Before you dive hed first into the "he saw da explosion on TV" mantra, read this portion of his interview very carefully.

Roosevelt Roberts: It seemed like [incomprehensible], by the time I got the dock it was already in the parking lot in lane one, and it was so large, you couldn't miss from seeing it.

Craig Ranke: Right, but from what direction did it seem like it came from?

Roosevelt Roberts: It seemed like that it came from uh... it... hold on a second... it seem like it came from uh... south west.. look, the same way it came in or appeared that it came in, almost right where that first plane had uhm... fell into the Pentagon right there, it.. it.. the.. it looked like it came from that direction

Was Lagasse lying when he pointed at the wrong gas pump he was parked at?

The wrong gas pump 20-30 ft away? So what???
Either way he still saw the aircraft to the north of the gas station. He still couldn't see the "SOC aircraft". He is still corroborated over and over...And you know it.

Was Sean Boger lying when he said ...*he said*...he saw "the plane enter the building"?

Was he lying when he said that he saw the aircraft fly NOC from a POV where he had the Citgo Station directly in front of him?



Can the directional damage be caused from this trajectory?

Was April Gallop lying when she said that "nothing should have been able to come within miles of that building." when planes fly directly over the building, many times daily, enroute to Reagan National?

What, the morning the trade centre had been attacked?

Good to see you acknowledge the multiple daily flights over the Pentagon to Reagan National Airport. GLs usually deny that. You know why don't you?

And not surprised to see you attack an actual victim of 9/11 on an irrelevant point.

Were Craig and his large friend lying when they were asked by the Pentagon Police at the Citco about unauthorized filming around the Pentagon when they put a blank tape in their camera and said "No"?

Oh Jebus, lying to the authorities God forbid...

reply to post by ThePostExaminer


You still haven't explained the lack of flyaway witnesses. The "duck and cover" explanation has been laughed off the page and without a flyaway, the flightpath is moot.

Originally posted by LaBTop
I have perhaps interesting news for you.
The global money generated in all countries of the world yearly (Global GDP), is about 37,000 billion dollars worth. That's 37 trillion dollars.
37,000,000,000,000 dollars.
Now, before 9/11 they had lost track of accumulated lost military funds in the USA alone.
Of around 2,300 billion dollars. That's 2.3 trillion dollars.
2,300,000,000,000 dollars.

Great, and you extrapolated that how exactly from the quote by Rumsfeld?

And you want us to believe that was not a real issue?
That text you quoted two times is the usual smoke curtain, when accountants need to cover their behinds. Those figures have been meticulously written down. Then they were lost.
That kind of figures are not lost, they are getting rid of.

Again how did you extrapolate this from Rumsfeld's quote?

Those 2,3 trillion were lost from the books, not out of their pockets.
They got reshuffled into black money. To pay for more and more black projects.
That quoted text is complete and utterly BS. If the systems exist, may they be old or different, you will always find the figures back. There are accountancy rules in place.
All these female victims were auditing already for two years, that means they met strong opposition, or even got told to slow down. Find out who gave the order to start that special auditing. They wanted to stop that highly lucrative black projects culture. Then find out who got the contract to audit the whole DoD. Then look into the victims lists regarding the Pentagon attack, where they mentioned their jobs.

Right, and you got all this from Rumsfeld's quote how?

By the way, reading comprehension, you said?

Source : OAA History, 1968-2002
www.oaa.army.mil...

Oh I do love this game.

Lets go back to the beginning: What was the name of the offices affected?
Office of the Administrative Assistant to the Secretary of the Army

Each branch has its own Office of the Administrative Assistant to the Secretary of the ________ .

Here, this is the Resource Services office:
www.hqda.army.mil...

Develop MACOM level Program Objective Memorandum
Formulate the Operating Agency annual budget estimate.
Develop allocation guidance.
Execute or monitor the execution of budget authority.
Supervise open transactions and operation of DTS-W and the Army Welfare Fund.
Conduct budget execution reviews and managerial accounting service.
Report and account for public funds.
Evaluate operations for compliance with policy and recommend improvement.
Administer a Management Control Program.


Headquarters, Department of the Army Resource Management is designated as Operating Agency 22 (OA22).Organizationally, HQDA-RM is under the Deputy for Resource and Programs. As an Operating Agency, OA22 is responsible for providing resource management support for over two hundred activities which perform a variety of readiness and operations support functions for Headquarters, Department of the Army. Support includes critical Army-wide centrally managed programs in addition to sustainment operations of HQDA activities to include the Secretariat, Army Staff and many Staff Support and Field Operating Agencies (SSAs and FOAs) as well as Joint and DoD activities for which the Army has administrative or executive agent responsibilities. The major challenge facing OA22 is to provide a reasonable level of support to these unique and diverse activities in an environment of diminishing resources.

here is what it does
www.hqda.army.mil...

All for the ARMY

What was affected was the ARMY'S budgeting offices. NOT the ENTIRE DoD budgeting office. My reading comprehension is just fine. My critical thinking skills are better than yours though. Nice try. Oh FYI:

The DoD budget is managed by
The Office of the Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller)
comptroller.defense.gov...

Not by the ARMY.

Remember: The ARMY =/= the entire DoD

GenRadek : What was affected was the ARMY'S budgeting offices. NOT the ENTIRE DoD budgeting office. My reading comprehension is just fine. My critical thinking skills are better than yours though. Nice try. Oh FYI:

The DoD budget is managed by
The Office of the Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller)
comptroller.defense.gov...

Not by the ARMY.

Remember: The ARMY =/= the entire DoD

Let's try logic again :
The Comptroller has always been tasked to control the entire DoD budgets.
They made a MESS from it, they lost control over 2.3 trillion dollars of the total funds the DoD had received from Congress over several years. Because that's what you do basically in accounting : balance your books incomes against your spendings. These Comptroller checked books were unbalanced. There was 2.3 trillion dollar not accounted for.

There was enough evidence that the DoD had received 2.3 trillion more than all their DoD books its spending accounted for. Otherwise Rumsfeld had not even known that it was missing in the books. And the order would not have been given to check the books again. By a new party.

If I understand you well, you think that the same entity which had the task to keep a clean and balanced DoD book, and lost 2.3 trillion, not accounted for, over a period of several years, will get the task to check their OWN books? Great way of being sure of the outcome.
They messed up. In such a case, your own work will get checked up. Not again, by yourself...

Of course they got audited by an external party, not connected to their Comptroller offices.
Note that most victims were from, outsourced by the Pentagon, accountancy firms, hired to audit the already Comptroller controlled DoD books. Which then were still missing those 2.3 trillion dollars.
I repeat, find out who ordered that audit, and you shall be enlightened.

You really think that Rumsfeld interview was a Muppet show?
That no IMMENSE funds were missing? Rumsfeld and his backers thought otherwise on 9/10/2001.
But the sole fact that again a military unit was ordered to perform that important audit, covering a sum which was the same as 23% of the total yearly budget for the DoD, implicates already that there was no real intention to bring those funds back to their place in the DoD books.

By the way, my quoted OAA words did not sink in enough, so I repeat them :
""Critical services included telecommunications -telephones and computer operations within the building -motor pool, passports, and contracting. The Administrative Assistant’s staff sustained forty of the seventy-five Army deaths. In one brief moment the office lost almost all of its financial experts and computer files"".

These financial experts had all the know how to handle the 2.3 trillion case.
The computer files were lost! The computer operations and telecommunications throughout the building were lost (""and reestablished computer and telecommunications connectivity throughout the building. The extraordinary efforts of the Administrative Assistant’s staff reestablished normal operations within days"".) That was a great simple way to destroy the military monitoring of the 9/11 events for the following days. And the ONI offices, who were feared experts in following global and national events, were also destroyed, all personnel was killed, except one very young guy who was just seconds before send out to deliver a message elsewhere. A general was killed too, that does not happen too often.


By the way, great concerted effort again to distract from the main part of my NoC posts, and my radar map posts. And all my NoC additional witnesses posts. Not one intelligent word about it, to counter my words, or to strengthen them.

You all are so transparent.
Not one word addressing the meat of the matter. Well done, good job! Pays well? In ATS stars? What's their value on the markets today, with all this crisis talk?

Can any of you guys address the real meat of the matter?

reply to post by vipertech0596


Thank you so much. That one line of yours explains it all for us. How generous of you.
What the hell, sarcasm is lost to people like you, "one liners".

Great way of dumbing down any message board on the Internet : One liners.......

Originally posted by LaBTop


Let's try logic again :
The Comptroller .....

That entire post is a classic example why ATS will never, ever reach the heights of a truly respectable and serious discussion board. It was total gibberish, yet it gets posted and left here without any comment from the mods.

It is also an example of why the Truth people and their "movement" remain laughing stocks across the entire spectrum of the human existence. The amount of conjecture in that post would have choked a horse. When people post pure conjecture while claiming some mantle of legitimacy, and the hosting discussion board does nothing to maintain at least the barest semblance of serious scholarship or knowledge, it becomes just as much of a joke as the conjecture-filled diatribe.

Mosey on, y'all. When does the next act start?