Iran nuke dispute: Report raises vocal tsunami

Originally posted by rebellender
really, the more I discover about Israel, its not the fair haired boy. It can huff and puff all it wants to but It wont do doodly squat. I say let Iran make bombs. They just want to play Gangsta like the rest of them. Let them. US is 45 days or so away from freeing up troops, Israel will just huff and puff. Iran has allies and Israel knows it so its a stalemate. I'm not loosing sleep over this issue anymore. Better sooner worry about the sleeping Giant of China who hasn't been sleeping at all. Jump on youtube or look at this. Them boys are serious

Its one thing to develop nuclear weapons as a deterent. Its something quite different when the people behind that bomb advocate wiping Israel off the map. People seem to view this as a black and white, if they ahve it we can have it issue, and its far from that.

The mentality of the Iranian leadership as well as thier moral views are incompatible with possession of a nuclear weapon as a deterent. In their minds, its to be used and since they have no issues sacrificing their own people for the greater Islamic good.

Iran does not look down the road ahead of them, again, which is incompatible with nuclear weapons program.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

While Russia certainly has the right to criticise US / West foreign policy, people need to be aware that Russia was providing technical expertise for the Iranian nuclear reactor.

There is more here than the contracts the Russians have with Iran and specifically contracts on the nuclear power facilities.... Russia should know better than anyone how Iran actually plans to retaliate, and what their actual capabilities are.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

The mentality of the Iranian leadership as well as thier moral views are incompatible with possession of a nuclear weapon as a deterent.

Would that be more or less 'incompatible' than the leadership in North Korea, or Pakistan?

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


I know at one point Russia was to supply Iran with the advanced air defense network, incouding top of the line missiles. The great chirade with that was Russia publicly announcing they would NOT be seeling those missiles to Iran. However, they had no issues supplying those missiles to a former soviet republic who in turn sold the missiles to Iran.

I get the impression that the louder China and Russia get on this topic, the closer we are going to get to see exactly what they both suplied Iran with.

Originally posted by TrueBrit
My attitude to this , is that unless the report includes eyes on reports from an in and out deep cover agent, with photographic evidence, verified by scientists ,
. . .

I will use another persons post from a different thread:

Originally posted by Phoenix

. . ..



back in 03' and Iran's nuclear program was a subject then with the same nay-saying going on then just as now - globalsecurity.org had published satellite photo's of Natanz centrifugal processing facility being buried under layers of concrete and soil in its entirety - the photo's were quite detailed.

Nay-Sayers said it was all for peaceful purposes and discounted Iran's expense of facility burial as normal procedure.

Later in 2005 when evidence was brought up of conventional explosive testing stands utilized for implosion testing it was all poo-pooed as war-mongering after the Iraqi opposition supported by Iran made things difficult in Iraq.

After reading "Ken Timmerman's" 2005 book Countdown to Crisis on Iran's involvement or a least knowledge of 9/11 I've been skeptical of any Iranian government statement as being truthful or having any veracity. It appeared that the "Bush Doctrine" was isolating Iran on all side's rather than directly attacking it but the fickle American public did not see it that way nor did his administration articulate strategy to the public in any coherent way - such is history, we all know the result's of that failure.

This issue has been ignored for way to long and it like watching the movie Groundhog Day for me as this keeps cropping up time after time with no change, no resolution to the point resolution will be extreme in it's nature.

All the excuse's have been made, all the denials have been repeated ad-infintum but here we are almost ten year's later and now the argument is moot and the chance to halt proliferation means risking WW-III, see the definition of insanity above!

The only point of argument being motives,

Let's not even get into missile development nor strange testing regimes pointing to EMP capability.

reply to post by Xcathdra


It's not just what they can do to retaliate in Iran, and what their known defenses are that is troubling the Russians.

IMO

At this point, saying nothing to the public was not an option.

I don't think either China or Russia give a damn about what is discovered that either have supplied Iran with, they've made no great efforts to keep that secret.

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade

Originally posted by Xcathdra

The mentality of the Iranian leadership as well as thier moral views are incompatible with possession of a nuclear weapon as a deterent.

Would that be more or less 'incompatible' than the leadership in North Korea, or Pakistan?

About the same actually....

The difference between those countries however lies with the fact that the countries surrounding / near them are capable of defending themselves, where as countries in the Middl East arent.

Secondly Pakistan and N. Korea have not made the wipe Israel off the map speech, although N. korea and threatening to rain fire down on the south is common place, and has occured since the the cease fire.

So are you advocating that the US / West should also take out Pakistan and North korea?

Originally posted by Xcathdra

So are you advocating that the US / West should also take out Pakistan and North korea?

I am saying that a similar approach should be considered with Iran.

The time has passed for military intervention in Iran, in my opinion, though diplomacy isn't much better. However how far has diplomacy gotten the USA with North Korea?

Do you honestly believe that Iran, armed with a nuke would use it in an unprovoked attack?

They know that Iran would be very quickly completely destroyed.

If the world can tolerate a nuclear North Korea and Pakistan ... Why not a nuclear Iran?

If the answer is NO, then why stop with Iran?

If millions are going potentially die in a war over this, then lets make it worthwhile... Take them all out.

reply to post by carlitomoore

A diplomatic route looks increasingly unlikely. Iran is not cooperating.

Sanctions won't do any good. Iran has too much oil and extremists in leadership.

I said a military strike within 5 years but I think it'll be much sooner at this rate. Experts are saying now that Iran could build a bomb within a matter of months.

Writing is on the wall. Too bad Iran is not being smart. History is being repeated.

I wonder how many cruise missiles they'll use and how big the airstrikes will be?

Russia is calling for everyone to calm down. Yep. Iran is about to have the bomb and we should calm down. All of that makes sense if you're Russia. Their goal it to keep their border secure and keep the oil flowing and to ensure that western interests (like democracy and military bases) do not spread. I mean. Russia and China are focusing on being the opposition to the US.

The military not too long ago said we could war with China at some point in the next 50 years. I shrugged it off back then. But having seen how China behaves and is in lockstep with Russia, I don't doubt this anymore. It would only require a few more things and BAM there'd be war.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by carlitomoore

 

The IAEA report is unlikely to reveal any firm proof of Iran weaponizing its nuclear program, and circumstantial evidence is unreliable, says foreign affairs analyst Richard Heydarian. “The problem with the IAEA report is that it relies heavily on satellite images and data provided by Western intelligence agencies… The case of the Syrian Al-Hasakah Spinning Factory has proved that actually you cannot really rely on satellite images. There is huge room for error,” he told RT.

from your source.

Exactly. the same type of "smoking gun" evidence that helped the US find those Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, "cooked" up by the same people.

Oh wait.....

That is not really accurate.

Iran has had a verified nuclear weaponization program and enrichment centrifuges still exist.

Iraq not only had ONCE had chemical weapons, but had used them.

Iraq had denied, as Iran does now deny, access to verify these materials were no longer being used-- despite treaty.

And, by-the-way, this whole "cooked-up" and "smoking gun" type language was previously limited to indicting the Republican Administration, was it not? Now that Obama is expected to agree with the International inspectors report, How come the partisan politics no longer exists? Why is it simply "American?"

A report I heard this evening from a former IEA inspector (American) who stated that most European states had never believed that Iran had ended its nuclear weaponization program, although the American position was to assert that it had.

So, why are we not demonizing the Europeans-- especially those who have been helping Iran build than dang things?

How, exactly is Iranian insanity America's fault?

Amerikan govt and Israel should provide concrete evidence before nonsensical allegations.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


I just have issues when a country only wants to put a few nuclear weapons in their stockpile. As we talked about before, deterence is one thing. When the game plan doesnt look like a deternce strategy, it begs the question of whats the purpose.

Nuclear weapons posession by Iran doesnt come across as deterence. Reason being is Iran knows Israel has nuclear weapons. Actually many more than what Iran is going to be able to produce without getting outside assistance resource wise (which looks possible and I expect to see references to that in the IAEA report tomrrow).

Iran knows what will happen if a regional war breaks out. Between Syrian chemical weapons and a possible nuclear bomb or 2 from Iran, we come back to the begining, which is to say they arent present as a deterence, but a last ditch if im going down your going down mentality.

What makes Irans situation unique is the internal political issues occuring between Ahmadenijad and the Ayatollah. There has been such a break down between the 2 that the Ministry that oversees the nuclear program, an Ahmadenijad appointee, has acually be replaced with the Al-Quds / RG leadership and oversight.

There are only a few reasons as to why that may occur. When people look at this situation in Iran, they view it as Iran as a whole. If that were the case no changes would be needed in ministry over sight. However, when ahmdadenijad makes comments about wiping Israel off the map, going head to head with the Ayatollah over the program itself, I would not put it past ahmadenijad to use a nuclear weapon. Remeber several of his cabinaet ministers ave been arrested, Ahmadenijad and several sitting members of his cabinet are now under investigation for finance fraud in excess of $2 billion dollars (Us equivelant).

Then we have Ahmadenijad discussing the events that must occur in order to bring on the final appocolypse that he believes is nearing (returning of the Mahdi if I remember right).

Ahmadenijads actions dont present as a national goal, but a personal goal hidden behind the national.

I would rather Iran have 60 nukes and counting rather than a few. When you deal with small programs while citing it as a deternce to the US, who has over 20k nukes, the math does not add up.


remember - Always make sure your payments to your excorcist are current, otherwise they may reposess your house.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by rebellender
really, the more I discover about Israel, its not the fair haired boy. It can huff and puff all it wants to but It wont do doodly squat. I say let Iran make bombs. They just want to play Gangsta like the rest of them. Let them. US is 45 days or so away from freeing up troops, Israel will just huff and puff. Iran has allies and Israel knows it so its a stalemate. I'm not loosing sleep over this issue anymore. Better sooner worry about the sleeping Giant of China who hasn't been sleeping at all. Jump on youtube or look at this. Them boys are serious

Its one thing to develop nuclear weapons as a deterent. Its something quite different when the people behind that bomb advocate wiping Israel off the map. People seem to view this as a black and white, if they ahve it we can have it issue, and its far from that.

The mentality of the Iranian leadership as well as thier moral views are incompatible with possession of a nuclear weapon as a deterent. In their minds, its to be used and since they have no issues sacrificing their own people for the greater Islamic good.

Iran does not look down the road ahead of them, again, which is incompatible with nuclear weapons program.

Im far more concerned with israel and their idea that everyone non jew should die. Dont they have american (or self made) A/H-bombs? But guess iran is next on the line...

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Then we have Ahmadenijad discussing the events that must occur in order to bring on the final appocolypse that he believes is nearing (returning of the Mahdi if I remember right).

Ahmadenijads actions dont present as a national goal, but a personal goal hidden behind the national.

Ahmadinejad has absolutely ZERO power, he is just the public figurehead for the Ayatollah. The "Supreme leader" has absolute power in Iran. They have some quite radical beliefs, no doubt. Is it enough to warrant a war with them?

Suppose we'll see soon enough.

Any option other then war, would be the best course now, but really this ultimately will be Israel's decision, the rest of us have no real say, and are just along for the ride, no matter where it takes us, no stops, no getting off.

Originally posted by Saltarello
Im far more concerned with israel and their idea that everyone non jew should die. Dont they have american (or self made) A/H-bombs? But guess iran is next on the line...

I see someone has been drinking fro the cup of the protocols of the elders of zion. As far as Israel having nukes and what kind, maybe we should remind people that throughout the years since Israels founding, there has been a clear and consistent plan to wipe them offr the map.

If Arab countries refuse to sign a peace treaty with Israel, then what is Israel suppose to expect?

we can play the tit for tat game on what country gave what country wmds etc etc etc. however it would require people to recognize the fact that the picture should be all inclusive, instead of a myopic view on just Israel. People whine about Israeli having a nuke program while demanding the UN do something about it. They seem to ignore the fact that Israel is not a signatory to the NPT.

If Iran wantst o build nuclear weapons, then they should withdraw from the NPT, boot out the inspectors and do their own thing.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Its one thing to develop nuclear weapons as a deterent. Its something quite different when the people behind that bomb advocate wiping Israel off the map. People seem to view this as a black and white, if they ahve it we can have it issue, and its far from that.

The mentality of the Iranian leadership as well as thier moral views are incompatible with possession of a nuclear weapon as a deterent. In their minds, its to be used and since they have no issues sacrificing their own people for the greater Islamic good.

Iran does not look down the road ahead of them, again, which is incompatible with nuclear weapons program.

I think it is much quite different in sentiment than you portray. I think Moses hijacked the best of the best craftsman then developed a religion to control his mob and then stole the land of milk and honey. I wouldn't have said this 6 weeks ago but Judeo- Christianity is the biggest sham of mankind. Its my opinion, You have yours. Its cool. My point here is they were bedouins once. They Hijacked America mostly after WWII ....I could not care less if Iran shot their asses of the Palestinians Land. This sentiment is catching on like wildfire.

Yeah I am one of those guys that has his head into the news all the time..until i stumbled onto this
Fake News
and this
The Big Picture
and then this
More Fake News


we are not getting the true story on anything. How can we make up a valid opinion, just sayin

reply to post by carlitomoore


This is it because some UN report says so? I NEVER read UN reports because most of them are a farce however in the case against Iran, don't you think the documentary "Iranium" was enough?

In my opinion I believe the possibility of Iran having at last 2 or 3 nuclear missiles in their possession right now is higher than not. They would had enriched enough uranium for at least a couple of them in the past year. We do know they have long range missiles quite capable of carrying a nuclear payload.

We will just have to wait and see what happens. I do know MSM have been banging the war drums alot louder than they have in Israel. I'm not paying too much attention to all of this until I see the shopping habits on Israelis change.....then I'll know when something is about to happen.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


Normally I would agree on the Iran comments. However the power struggle currently going on is unprecedented. When the Ayatollah announces that the office of the President may be removed, there are problems. Actually the problem is bad enough where the current ruling clerics feel that the Office of the President has become a threat to their rule.

Ahmadenijad has been slowly trying to elevate the Office of President to equal with the Ayatollah. While I agree the clerics are in control, the actions by Ahmadenijad have raised serious questions about his intent.

Ahmadenijad, on the global stage, doesnt come across as representing the Iranian people, rather he comes across as representing himself and his personal goals. There have been issues within Al-Quds as well as the Iranian Guard concerning loyalty to the President and the Ayatollah.

Ahmadenijad has close contacts and allys in both organizations.

Just because ahmadenijad is President doesnt mean his agenda is for the best interests of the Iranian people. A nuclear weapon in the hands of an unstable individual is more dangerous than 20k nukes and a MAD doctrine with other nuclear armed nations.

Its difficult to deal with people who are ok with killing in the name of God. Its even worse when the person thinks they can bring about the end days. Chances are the mindset they have doesnt care about consequences and death, since they already accepted the death part by thinking they can bring the end times.

reply to post by rebellender


Fair points however if we look at history up until today, we can see certain religions have also changed with the times, while others are stuck in the past.

If a person in the Us decides they dont want to be Muslim anymore, instead choosing to become bhuddist, catholic, jewish, mormon etc, they arent dragged into the streets and executed by a group of people who cant think for themselves.

In the Us if a person questions religious belief and doctrines, they arent dragged out and executed.

In the US if a teenage girls is raped, they arent sentenced to death for crimes against religion and doctrine.

The Us and Canada have serious differences when it comes to foreign policy as well as immigration and intervention doctrine. The Us has not shut down or militarized the border, nor have we imposed sanctions or threatened each others citizens.

Its called open dicsouse where its ok to disagree while respecting each others positions.

A lesson Iran doesnt even care to look at, let alone use.

reply to post by Xcathdra

Its something quite different when the people behind that bomb advocate wiping Israel off the map.

That comment has been proven wrong so many times that I have to wonder why people still quote it like it's true..
Is it that you just like telling lies?