Let's find some common ground between Christians and Athiests.

Before we dive into a potentially controversial discussion... just click this video and have a laugh. If you're hardcore religious you may get offended by it, as it is at South Park's level of humor, but I'm willing to make that sacrifice to encourage a light-hearted and respectful approach to this discussion. It also makes a point about the absurdity of pride and how it ties into bias against Christ.



As a former atheist and verbal persecutor of Christians myself, I feel the goal of any intelligent discussion should be to discern truth from fiction, not to bash the beliefs of others. This kind of talk will get us nowhere, because honestly, people change, beliefs change, and everything is in constant flux. Keep an open mind. And if you've been in the business of perpetuating the lie that all Christians are close-minded then, well, where does that put you? ee cummings once said that "I would rather learn from one bird how to sing than to teach 10,000 stars how not to dance." This is the problem I have with athiesm in general. It is an anti-belief system based around dwindling the light of others, yet contains no intrinsic perception of truth about the world other than "what you believe is wrong".

What's holding you back from a belief in Jesus? Do you believe he never existed? Why do you believe he never existed. Are you against the things he spoke? Our idea of loving neighbor over self came from this man, and many believe he was the embodiment of love. Some people think he was a prophet but not the Son of God, and I have issues with this stance as well. He made it pretty clear about who He was and what he came to the world to accomplish. Nobody could have said the things Jesus said without either being a liar, bat# insane, or perfectly truthful. That said I don't think Jesus is a liar, nor do I think he was insane, though lies and insanity within the Church have certainly given him a bad rep. The Catholic Church is one of the richest institutions in the world, for Christ's sake, and that is the biggest joke of all.

Religion (and lack of religion) imprisons the mind to see division between men over love and acceptance... Jesus would have never wanted that.

reply to post by DarkKnight21

Brother, I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I don't know if you will find too many that will here. I believe that Yeshua is my Lord and savior, and I will confess that until I go to meet Him someday. I have learned, however, that as believers, we can't force anyone to believe the same way, no matter how strongly we feel. Most unbelievers won't or don't understand this, but it takes the Holy Spirit to work in their lives first but we can plant seeds. However, I do feel that there is common ground between athiests and believers, and I have many friends that don't believe the same way and we often have some good debates about things, but there is an understanding between us.We are all human, and are pretty much in the same boat when it comes to our spiritual condition. I also have found that it does no good to get into pointless arguments with someone over the mechanics of spirituality. With that said, though, I admire your efforts to bring some common ground between us. Peace to you, and God Bless you.

Thank you. I assure you I am not here to push my beliefs onto anyone, just sharing what I have come to understand as truth through my own studies and experiences. I am a Christ follower, but I am always seeking underlying truth and so far I don't think my faith has hindered that. Anyone with opposing beliefs is welcome to come enlighten me.

Atheists are not out to be anti-anything for the most part. Just as theist groups have fundamentalists, so do atheist groups.

Every group has their members that push the limits a little too far. Atheists have some, and you have the WBC.

We would love to find a middle ground with thiests, but when questions posed to theists are ignored, dodged or outright answered with information that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, then we get annoyed.

It's hard to make people understand how frustrating it is to try and discuss with any group of people that talk in circles.

There can be no middle ground until both sides agree to be even on their arguments. We have valid, scientific questions and evidence, and you have the same old stories, retold and re-translated over the course of a few millenia which cannot be verified. This is where we are, and unfortunately until the thiest steps up to the plate and states their own opinion instead of what they were told or "preached" to by the local congregation, then it's going to be a hard topic to find any sort of ground, let alone middle ground.

King

I think we all believe mankind is doomed in one way or another.

Whether it's the Rapture or not, we are all feeling that something isn't right and that we will see the truth of our existence and experience a Global Catastrophe in our lifetime.

Peace

reply to post by DarkKnight21


Common ground you say? You would think that if you take that statement literally, we have at least one thing in common, we both walk on the same ground. At least it looks that way at first glance. Christians walk on God's earth, and Atheists walk on the Earth. Based on that observation, how can their be common ground?

Why exactly do we have to be doomed? Is it by our own hand or some mystical jewish zombie?

How is it that we are only left with only those options? Why can't we learn from our mistakes (eventually) and learn to get along and flourish?

What has become of ATS that the only thing we can look forward to is scaring the crap out of everyone so that the world will end in their lifetime?

I seriously doubt that the world will end anytime soon, and that we will be around for a very, very long time. Dinosaurs had millions of years, and they didn't have technological advancement, so I am pretty sure there will be someone here to laugh at our feeble attempts of power and control through fear and corruption; in one form or another.

King

reply to post by DarkKnight21


S&F for you...

Just for the sake of trying to make peace...

Its a welcome change on our Forum

They both have Comtempt for eachother and other beliefs outside thier own eg muslims roman catholics etc theres some common ground there, And they have convivtion in what ever it is they do or do not believe in theres a second one ....

and unfortunately until the thiest steps up to the plate and states their own opinion instead of what they were told or "preached" to by the local congregation

This is my only gripe with what you are saying, because 90% of the information we do have is information that has been accepted from a trusted source. So the Athiests who say the Christians only know of what they are told, forget that their construction of history, math and science came from a textbook. Why does anyone come to accept the information that they are told? Because they confirm its truth in their own life: science experiments, math equations, and for the Christian, the walk of faith. No, I can't confirm that everything in the Bible is true. But I find I understand the messages much more now moreso than I did when I was an agnostic and, as some would put it, "didn't have the Holy Spirit in me". I don't think access to the truth should be an exclusivity thing. You are either biased or not. I also don't think science cancels out the things that were spoken by Jesus. Maybe some narrow and literal interpretations of the bible, but not the meat and potatoes of the real message.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21

This is my only gripe with what you are saying, because 90% of the information we do have is information that has been accepted from a trusted source.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, so don't take it the wrong way......

However, the bible is not a verifiable and valid source of information. It has been edited for context and translated, re-translated and revised to put forth the story that the editors and authors of the time wanted to convey, nothing more, nothing less.

If we took such a book and tried to use it for scientific study and post it in a journal for scientific research we would be laughed out of the profession. It's absolutely fine if you believe what you believe, but a group of stories written by ignorant (by today's standards) goat herders does not constitute 90% of a trusted source.

If I am wrong, then please provide me your sources so that we may further refine this discussion.

Love the video BTW. Axis of Awesome is great. I especially like their 4 chord song.

King

i hate reading stuff (stuff on ats, i actually like reading). if its more than one paragraph, i'll just skip to the last sentance and base my responce on that.
also i hate watching youtube video's linked on ats, so i never watch them.i must be jaded, theyre allways a waste of time.

as for common grounds between christians and atheists, they believe in opposite things, why bother?

also, i shouldnt post when i'm in a bad mood, but i do anyway. ; ]

Originally posted by lacrimosa
i hate reading stuff (stuff on ats, i actually like reading). if its more than one paragraph, i'll just skip to the last sentance and base my responce on that.

That is too bad because almost no one on ATS writes a thread in the format of a proper english paper with a theisis, introduction, body and conclusion, so basically you are just stating that you post out of ignorance of the topic being discussed. That is not a great way to add substance to the discussion.

also i hate watching youtube video's linked on ats, so i never watch them.i must be jaded, theyre allways a waste of time.

That is a shame because there are some great ones. Sometimes there are videos that post bias positions towards one topic or another and are not worth their screen time, but only if you watch them. How will you know what is going on unless you do the research? That is the point of ATS, to read, learn and then write. You cannot ask questions or voice an opinion appropriately if you only pay attention to the cliffnotes.

as for common grounds between christians and atheists, they believe in opposite things, why bother?

It's not wrong to try and find a middle ground between two groups that don't always have the most civil discussion. I may be atheist, but I can appreciate anyone who tries to rationally discuss any topic (theism in this case) with civility and respect. Too many times threads posted about theism end up turning into a flame war that has to be locked to prevent any further trolling, flaming, bashing or any other manner of un-educated and un-warranted behavior that is not indicitive to ATS as a whole. We are supposed to DENY IGNORANCE, not exemplify it.

also, i shouldnt post when i'm in a bad mood, but i do anyway. ; ]

Probably a good idea. It's hard to think clearly when the mind is clouded by emotion; especially about esoteric topics that are mostly grounded in emotion as a source.

King

reply to post by DarkKnight21


Amen, I say to you.

Reading posts like yours, really make me feel that the Holy Spirit is alive in us. Thank you for helping my faith in Him. I couldn't have said it better about the Church. That is exactly the problem. I think we as Christians need to expose that truth to Atheists, which would facilitate in spreading Jesus' Message. I hope your post is read by many people so that it may have the effect on others as it has had on me.

A Common ground you say, well I would have to allude to a little thing called "life".

We all want to live in world without each other judging one another.

We want to procreate and have a productive life.

We want to LIVE.

We want to love and to be loved.

If both a christian and an atheist got bit by a zombie they would
both find a common ground for eating brains.

reply to post by Kingalbrect79

sorry, i only caught the ass end of your diatribe. though i agree with everything you said.

Originally posted by Kingalbrect79

Originally posted by DarkKnight21

This is my only gripe with what you are saying, because 90% of the information we do have is information that has been accepted from a trusted source.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, so don't take it the wrong way......

However, the bible is not a verifiable and valid source of information. It has been edited for context and translated, re-translated and revised to put forth the story that the editors and authors of the time wanted to convey, nothing more, nothing less.

If we took such a book and tried to use it for scientific study and post it in a journal for scientific research we would be laughed out of the profession. It's absolutely fine if you believe what you believe, but a group of stories written by ignorant (by today's standards) goat herders does not constitute 90% of a trusted source.

If I am wrong, then please provide me your sources so that we may further refine this discussion.

Love the video BTW. Axis of Awesome is great. I especially like their 4 chord song.

King

I have made my motivations clear. There is no emotional nitpicking or fighting here, just discussion.

The Bible has proved and continues to prove its validity in the 2000+ prophesies that have been fulfilled after their recording in the book. Many of these were fulfilled with the birth of Christ approximately thousands of years afterwards, and it's also interesting that the world's headlines today seem to echo the events that the Bible speaks of in the future. The latest of these prophesies to be fulfilled is debatable, but one of the most evident is the prediction that Israel would come back into existence in a single day (Amos 9:15). This, along with 10 other prophecies, were fulfilled in 1948, their truths being buried in the dark for millenniums. You can read more about them here.

Of course, prophesies alone are not the only reason people hold it to be truth. People continue to look to it as a source of wisdom and moral teaching. Christians can relate to the people in the Bible, they see their stories unfolding in similar ways in their own lives, and at different times! I was only recently awakened to the book of Job, which would have had very little meaning to me about a year ago. This is why people think this book has some kind of life force behind it. It changes you. It changes even the most selfish of men into Christ-like students.

The funny thing about all this is that if Jesus lived today, he would probably be a poster here on ATS. He was branded a rebel by the religious leaders of the time. The dude led a people's liberation based on love. Then the Romans tried to incarcerate the Spirit of God by turning this liberation into The Church. Just like how we are seeing OWS play into the interests of a NWO today.

IMO the Bible reveals its truths to us over time, and as cliche as it is, in mysterious ways. Our generation is used to getting information at the tips of our fingers, as fast as possible. God doesn't work that way. He teaches, then requires patience of us in order for us to understand why he says those things.

Originally posted by mileysubet
A Common ground you say, well I would have to allude to a little thing called "life".

We all want to live in world without each other judging one another.

We want to procreate and have a productive life.

We want to LIVE.

We want to love and to be loved.

Well said, I think you nail some pretty good points there. Those are key rewards to a true Christian life, minus putting Yehushua before self. Ultimately this bet/wager of life - and ultimately the big question of the validity of the Bible all boils down to the historical accuracy of the biblical account of His human life, and all the chips are stacked on this claim.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21

Originally posted by Kingalbrect79

Originally posted by DarkKnight21

This is my only gripe with what you are saying, because 90% of the information we do have is information that has been accepted from a trusted source.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, so don't take it the wrong way......

However, the bible is not a verifiable and valid source of information. It has been edited for context and translated, re-translated and revised to put forth the story that the editors and authors of the time wanted to convey, nothing more, nothing less.

If we took such a book and tried to use it for scientific study and post it in a journal for scientific research we would be laughed out of the profession. It's absolutely fine if you believe what you believe, but a group of stories written by ignorant (by today's standards) goat herders does not constitute 90% of a trusted source.

If I am wrong, then please provide me your sources so that we may further refine this discussion.

Love the video BTW. Axis of Awesome is great. I especially like their 4 chord song.

King

I have made my motivations clear. There is no emotional nitpicking or fighting here, just discussion.

The Bible has proved and continues to prove its validity in the 2000+ prophesies that have been fulfilled after their recording in the book. Many of these were fulfilled with the birth of Christ approximately thousands of years afterwards, and it's also interesting that the world's headlines today seem to echo the events that the Bible speaks of in the future. The latest of these prophesies to be fulfilled is debatable, but one of the most evident is the prediction that Israel would come back into existence in a single day (Amos 9:15). This, along with 10 other prophecies, were fulfilled in 1948, their truths being buried in the dark for millenniums. You can read more about them here.

Of course, prophesies alone are not the only reason people hold it to be truth. People continue to look to it as a source of wisdom and moral teaching. Christians can relate to the people in the Bible, they see their stories unfolding in similar ways in their own lives, and at different times! I was only recently awakened to the book of Job, which would have had very little meaning to me about a year ago. This is why people think this book has some kind of life force behind it. It changes you. It changes even the most selfish of men into Christ-like students.

The funny thing about all this is that if Jesus lived today, he would probably be a poster here on ATS. He was branded a rebel by the religious leaders of the time. The dude led a people's liberation based on love. Then the Romans tried to incarcerate the Spirit of God by turning this liberation into The Church. Just like how we are seeing OWS play into the interests of a NWO today.

IMO the Bible reveals its truths to us over time, and as cliche as it is, in mysterious ways. Our generation is used to getting information at the tips of our fingers, as fast as possible. God doesn't work that way. He teaches, then requires patience of us in order for us to understand why he says those things.

edit on 6-11-2011 by DarkKnight21 because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-11-2011 by DarkKnight21 because: (no reason given)

The "bible" has proven nothing besides the fact that a well worded entry with vague language can be applied to anything.

The bible has also proven to me the the uneducated and the sheep of the world need to be removed from making decisions, as they are unfit for making them based on a text written without justification and revision for several thousands of years. I would think, or would like to think that a omnipresent god would be able to correct these idiosyncratic ideals . An almighty god would have made these issues (and can if it existed) a non-issue, but it chooses not to?