The Moon Is Upsidedown Tonight ! Las Vegas, Nevada

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
the main reason your image does not explain what is going on is the place you have the moon compared to the sun and earth....would result of 'full moon'....

Thanks! But maybe you didn't read my post closely enough (or maybe I should be more clear).

I said the Moon was setting in the WSW and a line drawn from the Moon to earth, then the Earth to the Sun would make a 90 degree angle. That is the correct set-up for the first quarter phase (which is the phse of the Moon in the OP).

I suppose I could have shown the Moon behind the earth, but I though that would be confusing...

...but here it is anyway (although it looks like the Moon has already set). In this graphic (just like I was trying to show in my other one on the previous page), the Moon is in the first-quarter position, and the Earth has rotated so it is night time for the observer who is at about 40 degrees North latitude, and the Moon is setting toward the west.

Sorry -- TRIPLE post....
...I keep "quoting" instead of editing.

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The Moon Is Upsidedown Tonight ! Las Vegas, Nevada

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First off, from our perspective, here on earth, the moon and the sun are the same size in the sky. In your first diagram, keeping this in mind, you have shown a full moon.

www.hermit.org...

If you go to the 3rd graphic on the above link you will see that. A full moon is a full moon. It's viewed that way all around the earth for however long it lasts. Same with the phases. They're just angled differently in relationship to the horizon depending on where you are.

Your 2nd graphic has no sun.

sunshine.chpc.utah.edu...

This link contains 3 semi-interactive graphics. They are activity 1, 2 and 3.

As far as being more pronounced at the equator - I haven't read, seen, heard any information like that. All I've read, seen, heard says that this happens at the equator period. Not more pronounced. I've read, seen, heard that if you're seeing this, you're at the equator.

The ecliptic is nothing more than the suns' path across the sky as we see it from earth. This path intersects the equator at 2 points. Outside of those points it is either above or below the equator but not more than 23.5 degrees either way which happens at the solstices.

I have no idea what you're showing in the last 2 diagrams you put up.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
First off, from our perspective, here on earth, the moon and the sun are the same size in the sky. In your first diagram, keeping this in mind, you have shown a full moon.

If you are replying to me, see my clarified graphic in my post above. That shows the moon in the 1st quarter phase.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
Your 2nd graphic has no sun.

Are you telling me you can't imagine that the Sun would be in the same location relative to the Earth-Moon system???

Really??

Obviously my second graphic didn't show the sun because :

1. It would simply make the picture bigger than it needs to be,

2. It was irrelevant to show it sionce most people would realize it is in the same place as the top graphic relative to the Earth-Moon

there is some great tools available on the internet to keep up with alot of astronomical orders and cycles which i will share a few for those interested.

when im wanting to investigate something going on with the moon first i want to have my moon phase calendar pulled up so i can search the phase of any date when i need to....

stardate.org...

please note something that many get tricked by this when they see a 'shape' of the moon on the moon phase and they assume that this 'shape' also shows orientation, and it does not show orientation. lets look at a new moon crescent day which is October 28 on the calendar....on this day we see a ' new crescent moon' phase. There will surely be a crescent moon, but to say it will look just like that picture, a perfect sideways crescent....such a calendar will not show if it will be a crescent on the side of the moon, a crescent on the bottom and side of the moon (like at a angle), or if it will be more of a bottom crescent. It only shows the shape, not the orientation of the moons position to the earth and sun.

now lets pull up another window that we can take a look at the suns orientation, to the moon, and our position on earth, to the sun and moon.

www.starrynighteducation.com...=4&LatD=43&LatM=39.99999999999986&LatRG=N&LonD=79&LonM=24.00000000000034&LonRG=W&HH=05&Min=00&AmPm=1& MM=11&DD=21&YY=2011&DST=No&SD=Yes&LocMMA=&LabStar=Yes&Lab=Yes&Cons=Yes&Hor=Yes&SG=&PW=410&PH=358&Az=90&FOV=90&Alt=10&Elev=3&LocN=Earth&Explore=No&

here is an image i did for October 28th, the day of the new moon crescent in the sky, showing the moons orientation, to the sun, the sun sitting off to the side more so then anything, to the moon, which would of shown a pretty good angle/side crescent moon. I will post another pic later in this thread to show a different orientation on the day of a new crescent moon in which the sun would of been more under the moon making a true boat moon crescent. Each moon cycle is a bit different, depending on many things. Draw a line from the sun to the moons location, and you will see what orientation the crescent will be, to earth.




now lets look at a few days later as the moon and sun drift a bit further apart through this cycle.

october 31st, here is the moon in the western area, before it sets...still pretty close to the sun for the sun just now set below the horizon and the next image i will remove the horizon so you can see the moons orientation, to the sun, and see how the sun would be shining to the moon.




now without the horizon in the pic...shows the suns position to this moon phase...




notice the sun is not right below the moon so we will not have a true boat crescent...and its also not totally to the side of the moon...so the sun will shine on the bottom right corner of the moon, making a nice angle crescent....

now moving up to november 2....the sun again, has a orientation to the moon that is shining up to the moon from a bottom right angle....and we have noticed this orientation in all the pics people keep posting....even on the half moon pics that have been posted...we see this same orientation that the sun is to the bottom right of the moon (from earths perspective)....and note all of these images i have done from the location of northern nevada




now lets make a prediction, shall we??

lets imagine the moon in this cycle is close to ending its cycle, in the last phases, which is found in the early morning hours in the eastern horizon....

what the crescent moon will look like will depend on where the sun is sitting to the moons position....

we can look at our moon calendar to see that nov. 21 the moon will be very close to ending its cycle and this means it will only be seen in the early morning hours in the east right before sun set. It will be a crescent moon but I call this a 'old crescent' for its opposite position of the 'new crescent moon' we find in the west after sunset.

here we have a image of the eastern horizon at 5am on nov. 21...showing us a moon that is ending its cycle of phases, as it cycles back around and gets closer and closer to the sun again....the next image will show you without the horizon so you can see the orientation of the sun to the moon which will allow you to imagine what kind of crescent moon you will see on nov 21 in the eastern sky before the sun rises....




you can already notice that for sure the sun sits below the moon and you can see that the sun is soon to rise in the eastern sky....

now lets get a more clear idea of the suns orientation to the moon to see what angle the sun will shine onto the moon

The horns of the Moon always point directly away from the Sun. Since the Moon stays within 5º of the ecliptic this means that the horns will always be quite closely parallel to the ecliptic but it does vary a bit. The slight variation is important though.

During each day, the ecliptic moves across the horizon. As it does so, its relative alignment to the horizon changes (due to the tilt of Earth's axis). At this time of year the ecliptic is in the west-southwest and only about 10º from being perpendicular to the horizon near the time of moonset. The Moon is also now at about its maximal elongation from the ecliptic (about 5º north of it) so if we subtract that 5º from the 10º slope of the ecliptic we get a tilt of the "boat" of about 5º. That seems to coincide pretty well with the pictures from the OP.

The western horizon as seen in Las Vegas:

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


thanks for clarifying soylent, i know you are understanding what is going on because all of your earlier descriptions I understood....its hard to take a 3d event that takes place and show it happening in a 2d picture...so i think that was were it confused me

take a look at the images i just did in a new post....tell me if that explains what is going on in your opinion...

like i said, its hard to take 2d images and show what is going on in a 3d event

giving it my best though and am glad others are trying to be patient and help explain this

going to now get some images of true boat moon crescents and show their orientations

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

Originally posted by luxordelphi
First off, from our perspective, here on earth, the moon and the sun are the same size in the sky. In your first diagram, keeping this in mind, you have shown a full moon.

If you are replying to me, see my clarified graphic in my post above. That shows the moon in the 1st quarter phase.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
Your 2nd graphic has no sun.

Are you telling me you can't imagine that the Sun would be in the same location relative to the Earth-Moon system???

Really??

Obviously my second graphic didn't show the sun because :

1. It would simply make the picture bigger than it needs to be,

2. It was irrelevant to show it sionce most people would realize it is in the same place as the top graphic relative to the Earth-Moon

To help you visualize where the Sun would be. I clarified the graphic again for you. The Moon is where it would be in the 1st quarter phase (like your OP image):

reply to post by Majic


I understand that everyone must be civil...but I felt it was going on both sides of the topic

I earlier posted some comments to the op explaining this ws normal and only received these

so there has been a bit of snideness from both sides

so as i have seen some posters saying some out of the line things...i think that did not happen until the other posters started calling such posters things like 'desperate' and laughing at them. which bothered me not, but i did make the comment then and only then, that it was a shame no one was really here to learn anything

i hope the thread does not close because i really hope that some people take a look at what posters are trying to explain to them...at least keep it open for those that are trying to really understand

reply to post by Phage


i still cant get my computer to copy screenshots from stellarium...it drives me crazy! any tips on being able to do that?

reply to post by LeoVirgo

I will be reviewing the thread with an open mind. If I have comments for specific members, they will hear from me.

But that's between me and them, and while I do want members to know what's up, I don't want to derail the thread myself, so let's please stay on topic and, if you do have any comments for me, send me a message.

Thanks.

From the book Astonomy for All Ages, preview available on Google. See chapter 20: "Observing the Odd Lunar Crescents on Summer and Winter".



See also Wet Moon

some will remember back in the spring time months there was several threads made talking about the 'smiling moon'. back then we did hve some really good 'boat moons' but since then the orientation has gone more to the bottom/side then from the 'bottom'.

here is a image of march 7th 2011....a 2 day old new moon phase, a cresent moon that could of been seen right after the sun has set, would of been a great 'boat moon' due to the suns orientation seemingly more below the moon then out to the side of the moon

If, at this time of year, in the northern hemisphere, at say 36 degrees N, the vertical rays of the sun are hitting at 11 or 12 degrees S of the equator and the moon (keeping it to within 5 degrees of that path) is at 6 to 17 degrees S of the equator, at what angle would we, at 36 degrees N let's say, see the light fall on the moon? It wouldn't be verticle. In fact at 6 degrees it already wouldn't be verticle. So at 46 degrees it would be far from verticle.

reply to post by LeoVirgo

In the Configuration>Tools menu you can set the location for your screen shots. CTRL-S records it. It saves each screengrab as "stellarium-xxx.png".

If that doesn't work I don't know what the problem could be. Un/reinstall maybe?

Originally posted by intergalactic fire
reply to post by Aestheteka

 

this was my first post, i never said anything that the op's photos are fake.
I only stated this is normal, for me, as i've been watching and photographing the moon for years now(can't remember how long, 15-20 years i guess)

And my avatar i took it myself, not google.

really? you took a picture of vincent gallo and christina ricci in Buffalo 66 with your own camera? are you vincent gallo?

can anyone tell me why they say the moon rotates at the same speed as the earth which is why we always see the same side of the moon? i've been wracking my brains for years trying to figure out how that works. you would think if that were the case one side of the earth would always see one side of the moon and the other side of the earth would see the other side of the moon always.

Originally posted by abcddcba
can anyone tell me why they say the moon rotates at the same speed as the earth which is why we always see the same side of the moon? i've been wracking my brains for years trying to figure out how that works. you would think if that were the case one side of the earth would always see one side of the moon and the other side of the earth would see the other side of the moon always.

It does not rotate at the same speed as the earth (once a day). It rotates at the same speed as it goes around the earth (every 28 days). See:



(ETA: and "speed" I mean "frequency")

Originally posted by Uncinus
From the book Astonomy for All Ages, preview available on Google. See chapter 20: "Observing the Odd Lunar Crescents on Summer and Winter".

See also Wet Moon

edit on 5-11-2011 by Uncinus because: (no reason given)

Thank you for this.

I was trying to explain to the OP that the Moon's orbital plane does not coincide with the Earth's equator (does not coincide with the Earth's axial tilt) NOR does it coincide with the sun's Ecliptic plane as seen here:

The Moon's Orbital Plane

...which would mean that the Moon is higher in the night Sky in the late fall/winter and lower in the sky in the late spring/summer -- which is the converse to the position of the Sun in the sky during those seasons.

Therefore (and as your graphic shows) we see close to an 180° path of the Moon in the late fall and winter in the Northern hemisphere, so we are more likely to see the "boat" or "Horns up" moon at that time (even if we don't live at the equator).

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

Therefore (and as your graphic shows) we see close to an 180° path of the Moon in the late fall and winter in the Northern hemisphere, so we are more likely to see the "boat" or "Horns up" moon at that time (even if we don't live at the equator).

spring months i think are more common, for the boat moon look...the true boat moon, with the bottom crescent moon

if we observe all the new moons of this year so far from march...we would be able to see each month the suns path to the moons path sets a little more to the side of the moon then the bottom of it, each month