Religion makes me sick

reply to post by dankety

I sit here this morning pondering on the complete illogical state of religion.
To say someone like a christian feels so righteous that they love god while supporting the killing torture and rape of innocent children and women overseas. They feel that over in iraq every one is going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus.

Really that is what sickens me to have a religious person say that another person should burn in torture and pain for an eternity just from were they were born.

I cant make very much sense of this as these videos will.

George Carlin and Bill Maher

There are many African Americans in prison for committing the same crimes. Are they all evil? Even the ones who are innocent with amazing families? What defines evil and good in humanity? Skin color? No?

There are many Arabs who are terrorists. Are they all terrorists? Even the ones who are loving to others? What defines evil and good in humanity? Nationality?

There are Christians who misrepresent what it means to love others; what it means to not judge others; what it means to bless those who curse you; what it means to pray for those who persecute you. Are they evil? Can you say that you are any different?

There are Christians who love others, even enemies. They pray for others, serve around the world for free, work for a better world, raise good families, and fulfill the ideal of 1 Corinthians 13. Are they evil? Can you say that you rise to this ideal?

In the end, we are ALL sinners. We are all undeserving of God's grace to us. Grace is unmerited favor. Works cannot gain you salvation. Only faith gains salvation by loving God and loving others. This is the ideal of the Christian faith. The previous law as a guardian for mankind as it progressed through the generations. Galatians 3, end of the chapter if you want this information outlined.

Jesus said in John 3, you must be born again. This is not an option. You are a spiritual being having a human experience, not a human having a spiritual experience. There is a vast difference. You will be born (baptized) back into the water if you do not find love for God and others. Any relationship must be based on love for union to take place. Lovers and friends; nations and neighbors; loved ones and enemies. Love brings peace and union. God is no different. Find love for God and you find union with the spirit. You will then be reborn into God's kingdom and not into the material world of veiled existence. Until you can see the love of God here, you will will be here under the veil of faith and not the reality of fact. Love is the key. Why would God release you into His kingdom if you cannot love the least of these in this world-even your perceived enemies? Prejudice is hatred, even if it is against an ideology you cannot value. Love all men equally. Judge a man by his character and not his race, religion, creed or gender.

John 3

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

The wind will blow you where it chooses if you come back to the water. Each life will lead you to the truth. Confucius said, "I hear and I forget. I see and I learn. I do and I understand." You are currently doing to understand. Once you get it, love covers a multitude of sin. How long you work the vineyard is up to you.

Workers in the Vineyard Parable

The parable ends with this: " 16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

If you put yourself first in this life by pride, you will be last to exit. If you put yourself last in this life from humility to others, you will find salvation first. Pride can only elevate you above others. Humility is altruism and long-suffering for the ultimate salvation of those you love and those who choose willingly to love others.

It is clear form your post that you love others and feel love for those who are abused at the hands of evil. God created those who are abused as well as those who are loved. He loves us all. We each choose to steal, kill and destroy or love, Honor and protect by our actions. God is the judge and we are the witness. We are here to make the choice between good and evil. God separated the light from the darkness already. It's our duty here on earth to do the same. He has done His part by offering us the same opportunity.

We either light the fire we burn by or we are the light on the path to others.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

I am not going to judge but, everyone has millions upon millions of chances each day, from the time they are born till the time they die to accept Christ. You are given the message, what you do or do not do with it, is your choice and is on no one else but you.

A kid born in say a muslim or a hindu country has less of a chance to accept Jesus as their saviour.... than a kid born into a christian home.
These muslim or hindu kids would be exposed to a lifetime of muslim or hindu teachings, so the chances of them suddenly accepting another religons ways are very weak.
So there is an imbalance here, do you still think that they will be punished for this?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

I am not going to judge but, everyone has millions upon millions of chances each day, from the time they are born till the time they die to accept Christ. You are given the message, what you do or do not do with it, is your choice and is on no one else but you.

A kid born in say a muslim or a hindu country has less of a chance to accept Jesus as their saviour.... than a kid born into a christian home.
These muslim or hindu kids would be exposed to a lifetime of muslim or hindu teachings, so the chances of them suddenly accepting another religons ways are very weak.
So there is an imbalance here, do you still think that they will be punished for this?

The fact that they know enough about Christ should be enough for them to want to seek him out on their own (and yes they are taught about Christ, learning to seek the truth is something everyone must do on their own). I was raised pentacostal, and rebelled against those teachings and even turned away from Christ for 14 years and just stopped caring wether or not God and Jesus were real at all. I fell into all sorts of things from Aliens and UFO's to ouija boards, to even trying out the old gods Zeus and Hera to trying to fill that hole with promiscuous sex and drugs. I walked in darkness and revelled in it. I was an angry and hate filled man, who gave a damn about no one but himself and his own desires. Then one day "karma" caught up with me and i began to reap what i had sown, so many bad things slammed into me at once i reeled from the sheer horror of it all. Then i began to remember the things i had heard about Jesus when i was a kid but i never believed any of it, i called myself a "christian" but i was anything but because i didn't live that life.

I finally got tired of all the bad stuff slamming down ontop of me, and looked back on my life at all the things i had done and i felt a desire for redemption. A local church in my area had just bought an old run down bowling alley and skating rink complex and had renovated it and got it going again and they made that their church, it had no steeple and they dressed like ordinary people, not like people trying to be more than what they were. They dressed ready to worship without inserting their own vanity and pride into the mix. They welcomed me in and it felt like coming home for the first time in my entire life of 32 years. This church threw out tradition and went back to the old school preaching and teaching of the first century christians. Not long after i started going to this church i learned how to forgive, and then how to really love. I found the peace i had been looking for all my life. Looking back on my life everything that ever happened to me led me here, to where i live now and the church i attend. I began to see the hand of Jesus on my life, how i had been guided here to learn about him, and wether or not i stay here is all dependant on him as i have turned my life over to him and surrendered my will to his will. Even christianity went through its militarized period, the muslim are going through their's still to this day.

It is important to seek the truth. The Holy Spirit will call to you, but you have to have a mind open enough to hear him call your name. This is why the muslim and hindu have such a hard time hearing his call, they are so rigid in their upbringing and indoctrinizations they do now allow for the free will covenant God has given to us that enables us to think freely and seek the truth and because of that their children will and do suffer. Thats why we are the armies of Christ, even to this day we are engaged in a spiritual battle versus the other gods and other systems of spirituality that are destructive to their people. The message of Christ is a message of love, peace and salvation.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

The fact that they know enough about Christ should be enough for them to want to seek him out on their own

Disagree.
Everybody "hears" about Jesus, but they still grow up in a society thats pushing its own religious ideals onto everyone. So "hearing" is not enough to make someone accept the "christian" route to salvation. So a kid who is born into an orthodox hindu family will still grow up to be a hindu. (same applies to any religion)

Im sure you have heard of Krishna. What if someone comes up to you and tells you that you will roast in hell IF you did not believe in Krishna. Granted, you did "hear" about Krishna but you still grew up in a christian country so you would be more inclined to stick to what you were taught. The chances of you accepting Krishna is very low. Same applies to the hindu kids who "hear" of christ... but would rather stick to what they were taught.

This is why the muslim and hindu have such a hard time hearing his call, they are so rigid in their upbringing and indoctrinizations.........

So why blame the kid who had to go through this indoctrination?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


If what you say is true then Christianity never would have taken hold 2,000 years ago.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

So why blame the kid who had to go through this indoctrination?

Thats a better question to ask Christ than me. In the end all we have is faith in the messages we heard. Jesus himself said "I am the truth the way and the life, no man comes to the father but through me". It's a pretty self explanatory passage.

Jesus is the flaming sword barring the way back to eden, if you do not accept him you shall not pass, the one loophole in that is if you die before the age of accountability, which is the day you can actually understand the difference between right and wrong (retarded people and the mentally handicapped do not apply). Now it may be, that the age accountability cannot be reached unless you have heard the gospel and Christ's message, but it could also be that once you can tell the difference between what is right and what is wrong that you breach that age, although i am not willing to bet my salvation on it.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


I am not talking about age accountability.

My point was that a kid born into a muslim/hindu/buddhist family grows up with a certain set of beliefs and values. As they grow older, it becomes harder for them to discard whatever they grew up with and suddenly accept Jesus as their savior (according to what christians believe). So they never had a chance of making it from the beginning.

Its one thing for Jesus to deny them entry to heaven for not believing in him... but to roast them in hell along with all kinds of evil people? Something is very wrong with this picture. If you really believe what you posted earlier, then you have a mental image of Jesus being remorseless in nature... for sending anyone who does not believe in him to hell.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

I am not talking about age accountability.

My point was that a kid born into a muslim/hindu/buddhist family grows up with a certain set of beliefs and values. As they grow older, it becomes harder for them to discard whatever they grew up with and suddenly accept Jesus as their savior (according to what christians believe). So they never had a chance of making it from the beginning.

Its one thing for Jesus to deny them entry to heaven for not believing in him... but to roast them in hell along with all kinds of evil people? Something is very wrong with this picture. If you really believe what you posted earlier, then you have a mental image of Jesus being remorseless in nature... for sending anyone who does not believe in him to hell.

edit on 4-11-2011 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

I am not the one making up the rules. If all people were going to be saved by default as universalism says, there would be no need to seperate the goats from the sheep and destroy the goats and reward the sheep. Youre forgetting the fact that Yeshua is God in person, and whose laws was it that if you broke them you ended up in hell in the first place? Yeah you get it, its his way or no way, that is what were dealing with. When he returns will be as a conqueror, not as the savior. His role as the savior was fulfilled 2000 years ago, everyone that lived between then and when he returns has the millions of chances they get each day they live and breathe to seek the truth, this is why we have missionaries spreading his message, so that none may perish. People that have never heard his name or anything about him are more readily to accept him than those who have heard of him. This is why it is necessary to have an open mind.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

I am not the one making up the rules. If all people were going to be saved by default as universalism says, there would be no need to seperate the goats from the sheep and destroy the goats and reward the sheep.

And on what basis were the sheep and goats rewarded/punished? For merely rejecting or accepting Jesus as saviour? No. But on how they treated the needy around them.

I had made a thread about that subject earlier.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

His role as the savior was fulfilled 2000 years ago, everyone that lived between then and when he returns has the millions of chances they get each day they live and breathe to seek the truth, this is why we have missionaries spreading his message, so that none may perish.

You did not address what I said earlier about hindu/ muslim/ buddhist/ whatever kids growing up in religious environments cultures which don't allow for christian ideas to thrive... and are therefore less likely to accept Jesus as their savior.
Whereas kids born into a christian environment would naturally be more inclined towards accepting Christ as their savior.
So isn't this whole thing a little lopsided? Why would both parties be judged by the same standard. In fact, people born in christian environments will be dealt with even more severely.

Remember Jesus said "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

My point was that a kid born into a muslim/hindu/buddhist family grows up with a certain set of beliefs and values. As they grow older, it becomes harder for them to discard whatever they grew up with and suddenly accept Jesus as their savior (according to what christians believe). So they never had a chance of making it from the beginning.

Okay, then please explain how Christianity exploded after Christ resurrected. I don't think anyone who initially accepted Him grew up learning about Him. If what you say is true then how did Christianity get off the ground 2,000 years ago??

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You did not address what I said earlier about hindu/ muslim/ buddhist/ whatever kids growing up in religious environments cultures which don't allow for christian ideas to thrive... and are therefore less likely to accept Jesus as their savior.

He doesn't need to address it. I've done so twice now, no response.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Okay, then please explain how Christianity exploded after Christ resurrected. I don't think anyone who initially accepted Him grew up learning about Him. If what you say is true then how did Christianity get off the ground 2,000 years ago??

The first christians were those who had direct contact with christ and his disciples. They were also mostly OT law abiding jews/israelites. Then we had the Roman empire that made it their state religion.

Im talking of people living in a different part of the world who have been exposed to another religion all their lives. If you find it impossible to discard what you have been exposed to all your life, how can you expect these guys to discard what they have been exposed to all their life.... and then go on and accept what you believe in.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


That's even worse. The Jews knew full well what it meant to worship another as God. They had been indoctrinated with that since birth. So how did Christianity, especially first in Jerusalem, explode after Christ resurrected? And in the face of intense persecution?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

If you find it impossible to discard what you have been exposed to all your life, how can you expect these guys to discard what they have been exposed to all their life....

Who said I've found it impossible to discard what I've been taught all my life? I grew up in a Secular Humanist educational system, I've been a faithful follower of Jesus Christ for only about 5 years now.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

That's even worse. The Jews knew full well what it meant to worship another as God. They had been indoctrinated with that since birth. So how did Christianity, especially first in Jerusalem, explode after Christ resurrected? And in the face of intense persecution?

Jesus never asked to be worshipped by the jews.
Instead he instructed people to worshp the one who sent him.
Why else do you think that the lords prayer was addressed to the Father who is in heaven?

So basically jews split into 2 camps.... those who accepted Jesus as the messiah and those who didn't. Those who accepted him did not have to change their previous beliefs drastically.

They did not suddenly give up a lifetime of "indoctrination" just to accept Jesus.

Who said I've found it impossible to discard what I've been taught all my life? I grew up in a Secular Humanist educational system, I've been a faithful follower of Jesus Christ for only about 5 years now.

Well, but living in the US, facilitated your accepting Jesus.
Its a whole lot different for people growing up in India or Iran.....given the conditions there, the odds of them accepting Jesus as their saviour is low.

reply to post by dankety


Then why do you practice the belief of the theory of Evolution??

Or the worship of the earth??

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Jesus never asked to be worshipped by the jews.

Nope, it's a natural reaction to His deity and Lordship. THE reason Christianity exploded in the face of intense persecution, first by the Jewish authorities, then by the Romans is because He rose from the dead. 8,000 converted at Pentecost when the Holy Ghost fell on Peter and the other 120 in the upper room. Everyone at the time of Christ was raised in and practiced Mosaic Judaism.

Why did it explode in the face of intense persecution and rejection basically of your family and nations beliefs after Christ's death if what you claim is true???

Well, but living in the US, facilitated your accepting Jesus.

So? What's the difference, Secular Humanism is a belief system and worldview just like Hinduism, Bhuddhism, et al.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Nope, it's a natural reaction to His deity and Lordship. THE reason Christianity exploded in the face of intense persecution, first by the Jewish authorities, then by the Romans is because He rose from the dead. 8,000 converted at Pentecost when the Holy Ghost fell on Peter and the other 120 in the upper room. Everyone at the time of Christ was raised in and practiced Mosaic Judaism.

Its no surprise that Israelites following Moses accepted another Israelite who was pro-Mosaic law as their saviour.
Not the same for hindus, buddhists or muslims... who were not from that region and did not have to follow mosaic law.

Even then, those who accepted Jesus during his time and shortly after were mostly the poor and the downtrodden... and the lepers and the disabled. However, the elites of his time had no use for his teaching... in fact it was they who accused him of blasphemy and finally turned him over to the Romans and had him killed off...

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Even then, those who accepted Jesus during his time and shortly after were mostly the poor and the downtrodden... and the lepers and the disabled. However, the elites of his time had no use for his teaching...

But isn't that exactly what He said would happen??


"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” ~ Matthew 19:24

and:

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

Mark 10:25

and my personal favorite:

"And he said, 'I will do this: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.' But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?' So is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God."

Luke 12:18-21

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Okay, then please explain how Christianity exploded after Christ resurrected. I don't think anyone who initially accepted Him grew up learning about Him. If what you say is true then how did Christianity get off the ground 2,000 years ago??

The first christians were those who had direct contact with christ and his disciples. They were also mostly OT law abiding jews/israelites. Then we had the Roman empire that made it their state religion.

Im talking of people living in a different part of the world who have been exposed to another religion all their lives. If you find it impossible to discard what you have been exposed to all your life, how can you expect these guys to discard what they have been exposed to all their life.... and then go on and accept what you believe in.

That is the test we all are sent. To question everything we have been taught and find our way to god/all and come to heaven/nirvana. To wake up from the dream and be reborn in life. When I reached the goal I realised that all religons are just flavours of the same thing. They are seeing god from another perspective. From below, from the side, from inside. When you are awake you know you can choose your belifs yourself. But you also know that whatever you belive to be right will be wrong because you cant see the whole picture that god can. God don't care what you belive but who you are. What teachings you use to become a harmonious enlightened soul do not make a difference. In the end you reailize that all is one and you are allowed to become as Christ and Buddha. And when you get the connection the real lesson starts. I have found people off all faiths that have figured it out and are connected to god thru chi or as Christians call it Mana from heaven. It is a physical thing. I wish you luck in your understanding. Nobody can tell you your way to god. If you listen to yourself and act on your impulses then you will find your way. It is not a race and the only prize from reaching it early is the removal of fear and the knowledge that you are where you are supposed to be. The knowledge that everything wil turn out ok for you no matter what happens is kind of liberating.

But I think the world is a bit different now than before. It seems that change is in the air and we will all learn the real thruths. The people might not understand that they are being pushed for change by god and he will not take no for an answer. Evolve society or be destroyed. Either we become harmonious with each others or we go extinct. Namaste