Life is emergent, not created

reply to post by circlemaker


"The universe may indeed be infinite, but our limited awareness may keep us from seeing past a certain point."

our awareness has nothing to do with it. the only thing that limits how far we can see is technology. As it stands, nothing physical can be infinite.

The difference is ´life´ as we know is physical so is this Universe. Anything physical has a probable chance that it was created. And more probability is that the creator is not of this form but something we couldn´t percieve. So why should creators not exist?

Olbers Paradox

The paradox is that a static, infinitely old universe with an infinite number of stars distributed in an infinitely large space would be bright rather than dark.

To show this we divide the universe in to a series of concentric shells, 1 light year thick (say). Thus a certain number of stars will be in the shell 1,000,000,000 to 1,000,000,001 light years away, say. If the universe is homogeneous at a large scale, then there would be four times as many stars in a second shell between 2,000,000,000 to 2,000,000,001 light years away. However, the second shell is twice as far away, so each star in it would appear four times dimmer than the first shell.

Thus the total light received from the second shell is the same as the total light received from the first shell. Thus each shell of a given thickness will produce the same net amount of light regardless of how far away it is. That is, the light of each shell adds to the total amount. Thus the more shells, the more light. And with infinitely many shells there would be a bright night sky.

Dark clouds could obstruct the light. But in that case the clouds would heat up, until they were as hot as stars, and then radiated the same amount of light.

Enjoy

reply to post by VonDoomen


You'd still have to contend with an infinite number of black holes with that theory.

Just because we don't perceive the universe to have been around forever doesn't mean it won't be.

Collapse time and we'd probably be a single waveform, both dark and light. Infinite darkness and infinite light can't destroy each other since that which is infinite has no beginning or end.

reply to post by circlemaker


except this "infinite' number is proportional.

According to the Harvard Star Classification Standard-
The type of stars that are big enough to collapse into black holes are class O and B.
These stars together make up .13003% of all stars. Thats less than 1/5th of 1/10th of a percent.


The night sky we see, the average luminosity, would be the same at expanding 1 LY intervals. These intervals also include the blackholes contained within.

And that's not even mentioning gravitational lensing of light around blackholes, which would be another obstacle in your refuted claims.

reply to post by VonDoomen


It doesn't matter how few black holes exist relative to stars... when you add a number to infinity it becomes infinity (from 0's perspective), no matter how big or small that number is. This is why I currently reject that logic.

As for the lensing, good point but I'm still gonna go with a 50/50 light/dark infinite universe. The blackness of the black holes have gotta go somewhere. And remember I'm not talking about what the universe will eventually look like (it may indeed be full of light at a later time, like how now it's mostly darkness), I'm talking about what it would look like if you collapsed all of time, past and future. From the darkest times to the lightest. The universe seems to have a knack for balancing itself.

reply to post by circlemaker


Actually it does matter. Because that is what we see. That is what we have evidence of. There is absolutely zero evidence to suggest otherwise.

I guess im going to stop arguing with you because your one of those idealist hippies who cant even argue credibly.
For example "Collapse time and we'd probably be a single waveform, both dark and light. Infinite darkness and infinite light can't destroy each other since that which is infinite has no beginning or end."

This means nothing and any scientist would look at you and consider giving you a lollipop.

You see, when you open yourself up to these claims of the universe being infinite, then you open yourself up to a lot of ridicule. For example, In an infinite universe, there would have to be infinitely large stars. And yet for some reason we cant find anything past class O stars.

in an infinite universe, there would have been an infinite amount of time for the interstellar medium to have warmed up so that its avg temp would be close to what the average temperature of stars are. And yet, that is not the case as there is a lot of extremely cold space out there. I could go on forever with things that would have to be true in an infinite universe. and NONE of them are.

so yea if you want to keep arguing "Ifs", then go for it because it is pointless for me to continue past this point. You have your blinders glued onto your face pretty tightly. Lets see how that strategy turns out for you in the long run!

Originally posted by VonDoomen
I guess im going to stop arguing with you because your one of those idealist hippies...

You say that like it's a bad thing!

Either way this conversation is over. You can forget about having another debate with me in the near future since you resort to name-calling and insults when someone disagrees with you. Instead of trying to understand my perspective you threw it back in my face. Your loss.

reply to post by circlemaker


Ha ! All you suggest is an infinite number of retro generations partner. That is beyond perposterous and in no way even possible by anyones hope or imagination. I lmao at you people who have been indoctrinated to believe anything but absolute truth. You are all lost in a maze of knowledge that feeds your egos instead of brains and
starves your will and common sense with bias and propaganda. The most amazing thing of all this ?

Your willingness to believe this fowl smelling unbelievable BS. Most of you hate your parents too so I think it's mainly the authority a creator automatically has over his creation and the fact that this authority does have laws for us to live by or die by. Kind of a turn off for us humans I'll admit but preference in the end will not change the
facts. God put us here and he can take us out before anyone can bitch or moan about it.

Get over it.

Some good thought here. I have often wondered that if the universe expands then there must be something outside of the universe to expand into. Or does the universe create it's own expansion as it expands? If there is expandable space outside the universe is there an end to that expandable space?

Another thought. Is science certain that the building blocks of billions of years ago the same building blocks of today? In other words are the sciences using the very same physics that were in play 15 billion years ago or have these also evolved into the tools of today? I have read that our atmosphere has changed and we are not as oxygenated as we were at one time. Maybe other things have also evolved in the process of evolution. Could there have been other materials or building blocks used 15 billion years ago that we have no clue of them today?

Originally posted by circlemaker
You don't create life... you nurture it into existence by creating the conditions for it to emerge. Evolution may have done this through random chance over a long enough period of time, but life itself has always existed in some form.

Have you ever considered the idea of how God can supposedly "create" an immortal soul? I was taught to believe this, and yet when I confronted my preconceptions I realized that it doesn't make sense. If something has no end, then it has no beginning. However, various "beginnings" may be perceived within our experience of time, which may have led to this particular misconception.

A child isn't your property because you created the conditions for it to emerge. Same with the future of robotics, where life may emerge through our technology (and may already have for all we know). I believe this is important to understand so that we don't unknowingly impose upon an actual (as opposed to artificial) lifeform using the fallacy "I created you".

Life exists before the question "why" exists, because life is timeless. Anything that requires an intellectual understanding requires an ego, which includes the perception of time.

As for the analogy used: ''You don't create life... you nurture it into existence by creating the conditions for it to emerge.'', that is exactly why I wouldn't have it any other way when describing how it all comes down to Intelligent Design in the simplest sentence , then for the second half of that point you were trying to make(which doesn't make sense also), you basicly state because of the first part of the analogy used..that: this is why Evolution perfectly explains it all, yet it all collapses when you ask how did life actually form in the first place, which then again no Darwinist can answer.

As for your next point, I'll address this one..., you say ''Have you ever considered the idea of how God can supposedly "create" an immortal soul?'', the definition of immortal is that, as long as someone doesn't just come along kill you... you will continue to live on forever, not that you were never created with no beginning(that only applies in the case of a creator).

Because what you were saying was emplying infinity as you were basicly bringing that into it afterwards with this statement.. Which Is a Concept of Infinity by The Way: ''If something has no end, then it has no beginning. However, various "beginnings" may be perceived within our experience of time, which may have led to this particular misconception.'', I don't fully understand what you mean on the last half of this or weather you were still addressing the Soul or God on this part since you didn't make it clear, but if you were still on the issue of the ''Soul''..then that has already been refuted earlier in this paragraph, however I will go on and address this issue regarding God; to clear some stuff up weather or not this is what you were covering on that paticular part.

If you are a Creator, then you have No Frame Of Referance, this saying refers to anything which is Not bound withing: Time, Matter or Space; which applies to the Concept of God, so if you are a Creator, you have no beginning and no end..., because you're not in Time..., so if something was there before all of this and Crafted what we know as the ''Universe''.. then he had no beggining, so the question is not ''Where did he come from?'', but rarther ''Why was it that he was there?'', another point worth mentioning: the definition of ''God'' is that he has no beggining and no end.. the second that is taken away from the picture he's no longer God, so this Creator kind I am speaking of as an example, is one which fits in with the Definition & Attributes of God.

Now then... getting down to the juicy parts, if that's the case for a Deity/Creator outside of the Universe that falls within the Concept of God, then the question of: ''How did It/He get there?'' Or ''Where did he Originate from''...becomes illogical and does not make sense weather you realise it or not; now that it has been narrowed down for you.. now the question which still remains is: ''Why is it that he happend just be there?'' since evidently he could have not been there, without the answer I'm about to give you right now... I'de just have to say it was purely chance :/(50%-50%), but hear me out, after this it should give you the best insight into why I believe it's more rational to think he was ''Just there'' because it'll put everything into motion with a better understanding, after this there should be no doubt that there is more of a chance he was ''Just there'' than ''No there''.

As some may know there are 2 types of things in existence; Contingent & Necessary.
1. Contingent are those things which don't need to exist and are finite(Such as our Universe)
2. Necessary are those which were just there, because they were meant to be and are Necessary, this comes without any limitation when it comes to things outside of the Universe which fall into the ''Necessary'' category.


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