Why Do Methane Levels on Mars Change With The Seasons?

Because there's life on it! Not in the form of some advanced civilization but microbrial in the least. And I'm sick of this intriguing phenomena being summarily dismissed by mainstream scientists out of shame of ridicule.

We are now at a point, technology wise, where we are detecting recurring "releases" of mass amounts of methane into the atmosphere during the summer around the equator, a location/time when the temperatures are actually above freezing. Methane, is a byproduct of carbon. Either existing, or decaying.

For over 40 years, astronomers have found various hints of methane on Mars. These reports have always generated a lot of excitement because they seem to provide some clue to the habitability of our planetary neighbor.

"Methane invokes visions of life on Mars," explains Sushil Atreya of the University of Michigan. This is because much of the methane on our planet comes from living (or once-living) things.

But solid evidence of martian methane with infrared spectroscopy only surfaced eight years ago. In 2003, Mumma and his group saw signatures of methane in spectra taken with the NASA Infrared Telescope Facility in Hawaii. The methane was localized into clouds, or "plumes," over certain regions of the Martian surface, with the maximum density of methane reaching about 60 parts per billion.

www.physorg.com...



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If man was on Mars via gov't or military secret technology, we'd never hear about it.
If there was large amounts of life on Mars, we'd never hear about it.
It costs too much money to change text books all the time.

Nice post something i didn't know.

MSM are more interested in x factor than possible life on another planet.

reply to post by judus


Perhaps frozen methane is released due to higher temperatures during Mars' summer.

Or maybe the changing temperature causes enough expansion/contraction in the planets crust that previously trapped methane is allowed to escape

Or both. Or neither.

Just a couple of seemingly plausible answers

depends whether the cows are inside or outside .....

Originally posted by dtrock78
Because there's life on it! Not in the form of some advanced civilization but microbrial in the least. And I'm sick of this intriguing phenomena being summarily dismissed by mainstream scientists out of shame of ridicule.

You will get the ridicule here too but there are other ways to get information. Rather than waste time arguing with trolls and skeptics you can go to the source of the info and get all the current details, including Michael Mumma's actual report. You simply have to know what to ask and where to ask



The key thing about the Martian methane discovery is this...

NASA's Michael Mumma says methane is quickly destroyed in the Martian atmosphere, so the detection of plumes of methane is significant.

"Mars is active. Now whether or not its because of geology, or biology, or both, we don't know," he said.

NASA: Discovery of Methane Gas on Mars Could Signal Microbial Life
By Amanda Scott
Washington
16 January 2009

The U.S. space agency, NASA, says large quantities of methane gas have been detected on Mars, hinting at the possibility of biological or geological activity on the Red Planet.

A team of scientists with the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, or NASA, announced Thursday that the presence of methane gas on Mars is a major discovery.

Astrobiologist Sushil Atreya says there are two possibilities as to why methane exists on Mars.

"Either it's geology, in which case it's the reaction between water and rock, or it's biology, in which case the microbes are producing the methane," Atreya said.

Methane was first detected on Mars in 2003 by scientists using Earth-based telescopes. Scientists say that one plume of Martian methane contained nearly 19,000 tons of the gas.

NASA's Michael Mumma says methane is quickly destroyed in the Martian atmosphere, so the detection of plumes of methane is significant.

"Mars is active. Now whether or not its because of geology, or biology, or both, we don't know," he said.

Scientists say they have detected seasonal variations of methane emissions over the planet's northern hemisphere.

Physicist Geronimo Villanueva of Catholic University here in Washington says the gas plumes were emitted during the northern Martian spring and summer.

"One of the most important, striking, things about the discovery is that the regions where we see methane are regions that have a lot of rich history," Villanueva said. "For example, these regions show evidence that waters once flowed over them, and this is very important because if the water is still available below the surface, some activity - geology, biology - could be using them."

Scientists have debated whether reports of methane deposits on Mars were real. But now, Geologist Lisa Pratt says scientists have the evidence needed to consider the possibility of life on the Red Planet.

I don't have time to go over it all yet again but you can see my collected data here

Martian Methane
Reveals the Red Planet is not a Dead Planet

Wow, great post, Zorgon. Is that your website?

Two of the most intriguing things IMO concerning the methane is the rate at which it's being destroyed. Ultraviolet radiation, perhaps? Or something else? Something similar to what McKay witnessed on the surface of Titan recently. The fact that hydrogen gas was being actively consumed at the surface...

Additionally, they've also photographed over the past couple years very good evidence of geothermal geysers that are currently active - a contrast to recent belief that the interior mantle of Mars was essentially "dead".

Geologic / tectonic methods? Horse$#%^ if you ask me. They would not mirror the seasonal fluctuations as they do. It gets "warm" on Mars in the summer months, but not to the extent that it would significantly thaw several or dozens of feet permafrost or frozen ice deep in fissures.

Oh, and how bout the recent announcement of carbon based molecules found sprouting out of the 100 mile high geyers recently discovered on Enceladus?......an entire world of water, covered in a protective 50 mile sheath of ice, heated from within.....hmmmmm

delving into the geological cause for methane...
i used to have duties/chores at the dairy farm... every 2 months or so i would have to be in charge of stoking up the furnace and coal fired water heater...

i swear... whenever coal gets wet, it has an odor like methane,,,,
how do i know the smell of methane... well
i have to milk the cows, shovel their poop, and one gets to 'know' the odor/smell/atmosphere of methane first hand,
i did not need to go to the college oriented physics & science classes to learn


might there be eons old, dried up petroleum deposits on Mars that are like coal or shale oil deposits here on Earth that release gas in the higher temps?

Originally posted by St Udio
delving into the geological cause for methane...
i used to have duties/chores at the dairy farm... every 2 months or so i would have to be in charge of stoking up the furnace and coal fired water heater...

i swear... whenever coal gets wet, it has an odor like methane,,,,
how do i know the smell of methane... well
i have to milk the cows, shovel their poop, and one gets to 'know' the odor/smell/atmosphere of methane first hand,
i did not need to go to the college oriented physics & science classes to learn


might there be eons old, dried up petroleum deposits on Mars that are like coal or shale oil deposits here on Earth that release gas in the higher temps?

Coal and petro comes from where?
Organics,thats where.
But,there are many other factors in play.

he European Space Agency (ESA) found that the concentrations of methane in the Martian atmosphere were not even, but coincided with the presence of water vapor. In the upper atmosphere these two gases are uniformly distributed, but near the surface they concentrate in three equatorial regions, namely Arabia Terra, Elysium Planitia, and Arcadia Memnonia. Planetary scientist David H. Grinspoon of the Southwest Research Institute believes the coincidence of water vapor and methane increases the chance that the methane is of biological origin, but he cautions that it is uncertain how life could have survived so long on a planet as inhospitable as Mars.[12] It has been suggested that caves may be the only natural structures capable of protecting primitive life forms from micrometeoroids, UV radiation, solar flares and high energy particles that bombard the planet's surface.[32][33][34] In contrast to the findings described above, studies by Kevin Zahnle, a planetary scientist at NASA's Ames Research Center, and two colleagues, conclude that "there is as yet no compelling evidence for methane on Mars". They argue that the strongest reported observations of the gas to date have been taken at frequencies where interference from methane in the Earth's atmosphere is particularly difficult to remove, and are thus unreliable. Additionally, they claim that the published observations most favorable to interpretation as indicative of Martian methane are also consistent with no methane being present on Mars.[35][36][37]

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by zorgon


Glad to see you are still around,Zorgon.
I really like the pepsi-coke thing.

What exactly is your problem? You guys bash the scientists and as proof you quote scientists that do nothing but support the idea / possibility of former or perhaps even current (microbial) life on Mars.....
Just because they don't jump to conclusions like amateurs and rather want to have a solid theory before they make a statement about extraterrestrial life?
Get a grip.

reply to post by nv4711


I would call Skipper a pro at what he does!!!!!!!

Originally posted by thetiler
reply to post by nv4711

 

I would call Skipper a pro at what he does!!!!!!!

Nuh Dude, sorry, I have to disagree. He's flat out wrong in his book and pretty much all his conclusions from his interpretations of Mars photography. His claim that temperatures on Mars are moderate is, well.. just wrong... Surface temperature can be measured fairly easily from Earth.... and they range from -80 C to 20 C, median at -65 C.... So...bring a hat and mittens ;-)

He has no training or education in any of the things he's doing... not saying Amateurs couldn't be good in a field of science without a degree, but the combination of knowledge required - from Astrobiology, Geology, Chemistry, Physics and whatnot - keeps an army of scientists busy. i just don't think he's that of a Genius to be able to cover all these sciences competently. You just don't go from insurance adjuster to Astrobiologist overnight....

Originally posted by St Udio
i swear... whenever coal gets wet, it has an odor like methane,,,,
how do i know the smell of methane... well
i have to milk the cows, shovel their poop, and one gets to 'know' the odor/smell/atmosphere of methane first hand,
i did not need to go to the college oriented physics & science classes to learn

Methane is actually odorless... what you smell from the coal is sulfur. The methane that comes from your gas line is artificially scented to smell bad so you know when you have a leak. The methane from your cows is odorless too... its the other stuff you smell

As to oil on Mars... well there are these black geysers all over the place

reply to post by nv4711

You sure your replying in the right thread? I see nothing in the OP either pointing to Skipper or bashing anyscientists. You should learn to read

Its funny though... because Viking recorded temps in summer as high as 80 degree F and found signs of life, but skeptics ignore those same scientists when they say something contrary to the skeptical viewpoint

You can't have it both ways

Space: Viking: The First Signs of Life?
www.time.com...

And those same scientists have told us...

NASA Unveils Arsenic Life Form
www.wired.com...

and...

Evidence of Ancient Martian Life in Meteorite ALH84001?
nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov...

Gotta support those scientists, right?

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by St Udio
i swear... whenever coal gets wet, it has an odor like methane,,,,
how do i know the smell of methane... well
i have to milk the cows, shovel their poop, and one gets to 'know' the odor/smell/atmosphere of methane first hand,
i did not need to go to the college oriented physics & science classes to learn

Methane is actually odorless... what you smell from the coal is sulfur. The methane that comes from your gas line is artificially scented to smell bad so you know when you have a leak. The methane from your cows is odorless too... its the other stuff you smell

As to oil on Mars... well there are these black geysers all over the place

edit on 2-11-2011 by zorgon because: (no reason given)

I didn't know about those. At first I thought you were confusing Mars with Triton. Interesting stuff, and still not fully explained, it seems.

@ the OP - I don't think the biological methane theory is being suppressed or ridiculed. From what I've seen from science news outlets and cable documentaries it is considered to be one plausible explanation within the scientific community.

Zargon, that picture you posted is very interesting, where did you find it? Is it a negative image?

You are correct about methane being odorless, what you smell is actually hydrogen sulfide, a very deadly gas in itself that typically accompanies methane. One of the projects I worked on was a large landfill, we were breaching the liner cap after it had been covered for nearly 30 years. We had a number of engineering controls and multi-Rae gas meters with us to detect/control hydrogen sulfide. (We hit a large pocket, but that's another story)

Drak, I hear you, but I am rather disturbed when I read more generalized articles in the mainstream concerning Mars, they always reference the fact that "Mars may at one time have had life" when there are several signs pointing to the fact that it may potentially exist now. This fact usually isnt even mentioned.

Also, the gaping hole in Dr. Zahnle's theory of attributing methane levels to interference from our own atmosphere, is the fact that we would be seeing a uniform distribution of methane on Mars if this was the case. Similar to looking at raindrops on a windshield when its raining. We're not seeing that, we're seeing methane concentrated around the equatorial regions being emitted in the summers months, around known former reservoirs of water.

Originally posted by zorgon
reply to post by nv4711

You sure your replying in the right thread? I see nothing in the OP either pointing to Skipper or bashing anyscientists. You should learn to read

Thank you for you concern, but my reading abilities are just fine.
dtrock said this in his OP: "Because there's life on it! Not in the form of some advanced civilization but microbrial in the least. And I'm sick of this intriguing phenomena being summarily dismissed by mainstream scientists out of shame of ridicule."

and my comment re. Skipper was clearly a reply to a post from thetiler, not the OP, so what's your problem?

Its funny though... because Viking recorded temps in summer as high as 80 degree F and found signs of life, but skeptics ignore those same scientists when they say something contrary to the skeptical viewpoint

The high and low surface temperature at Vikings 1 and 2 landing sites ranged from -17° F (maximum high) to-191° F (maximum low). Pathfinder measured temps from -80 F to 0 F. Can you direct me to the 80 F Viking measurements? Thank you.

You can't have it both ways

Exactly my point.

Space: Viking: The First Signs of Life?
www.time.com...

And those same scientists have told us...

NASA Unveils Arsenic Life Form
www.wired.com...

and...

Evidence of Ancient Martian Life in Meteorite ALH84001?
nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov...

Gotta support those scientists, right?

Yes, absolutely, glad to hear you came around.

The average AIR temperature on the planet rarely goes above 32 F. However, averages are very deceiving in this case, since there are such extreme swings in highs and lows for Mars due to its lack of atmosphere.

A critical point here, is the SURFACE temperature is usually much higher tahn the air temperature on Mars, and has in fact been measured at 80 degrees in the past. The rover Spirit in 2004 (I believe) hit temperatures in the mid 60s. Obviously, since we're speaking about microbrial life, the surface temperatures (and more importantly subsurface temperatures) will be more critical than the atmospheric temperatures.

The fact that peak temperatures during the Martian summer exceed freezing in the subsurface and just so happen to correspond with thousands of metric tons of methane being released into the atmosphere from the surface is pretty striking.

Originally posted by dtrock78
The average AIR temperature on the planet rarely goes above 32 F. However, averages are very deceiving in this case, since there are such extreme swings in highs and lows for Mars due to its lack of atmosphere.

A critical point here, is the SURFACE temperature is usually much higher tahn the air temperature on Mars, and has in fact been measured at 80 degrees in the past. The rover Spirit in 2004 (I believe) hit temperatures in the mid 60s. Obviously, since we're speaking about microbrial life, the surface temperatures (and more importantly subsurface temperatures) will be more critical than the atmospheric temperatures.

The fact that peak temperatures during the Martian summer exceed freezing in the subsurface and just so happen to correspond with thousands of metric tons of methane being released into the atmosphere from the surface is pretty striking.

edit on 2-11-2011 by dtrock78 because: (no reason given)

So let me try in contributing something to your thread as a peace offering :-)

Apparently, there was just this year a study published in the Journal of Geophysical Research titled "Impact of seasonal temperature and pressure changes on methane gas production, dissolution, and transport in unfractured sediments". The abstract of the study is here (for the full study, one needs a subscription): Journal of Geophysical Research

Note: The study talks about sites on Earth, not Mars.

Quotes from the abstract:
"A one-dimensional reaction-transport model is used to investigate the dynamics of methane gas in coastal sediments in response to intra-annual variations in temperature and pressure. The model is applied to data from two shallow water sites in Eckernförde Bay (Germany) characterized by low and high rates of upward fluid advection. At both sites, organic matter is buried below the sulfate-reducing zone to the methanogenic zone at sufficiently high rates to allow supersaturation of the pore water with dissolved methane and to form a free methane gas phase. The methane solubility concentration varies by similar magnitudes at both study sites in response to bottom water temperature changes and leads to pronounced peaks in the gas volume fraction in autumn when the methanic zone temperature is at a maximum."
"This microbially mediated process maintains methane undersaturation above the FGD. Although the complexities introduced by seasonal changes in temperature lead to different seasonal trends for the depth-integrated AOM rates and the FGD, both sites adhere to previously developed prognostic indicators for methane fluxes based on the FGD." (whatever the he** that means :-)

Unfortunately the abstract doesn't show the magnitude of the change in temperature, I'm sure it's in the full study.

Now, I've got to tread lightly here, because I pretty much know nothing about this subject, but I give it a shot.

This study contains a few keywords (but, for full context, one might need to read the whole study, not just the abstract, so "Viewer discretion is advised" :-): "Organic Matter", "Shallow Water", "Seasonal changes in output".

To my knowledge, organic matter hasn't turned up yet on Mars. However, in his last heroic act and the reason for his untimely death, Marsrover "Spirit" got "stuck" in hmm.. I guess I could call it "wet sand"... when the rover ran down that fateful slope, it's wheels dug up wet, or at least humid or moist sand. It got stuck and that was it for him.
Anyways, my point is, you could possibly make a check mark at "Shallow Water". "Seasonal Changes" don't need to be proven, we know they exist.

Unfortunately, the abstract of the study does not give a reason as to why seasonal changes increase methan gas output. I think the key word is "shallow water" (which seems to be on Mars) and "organic" which still needs to be found. And if there is oil on Mars, we'll send the Marines ;-)

Does this study (applied to Mars) allow the conclusion that seasonal peaks in methane gas output proof (or at least point to) the existence of shallow water and organic matter on Mars?

I can't say, again no expert on that subject here.
Does the above make sense?