Chemtrails in Arizona this Week.

Originally posted by dw31243 Together we can bring the truth of Chemtrails from a Conspiracy to the truth where it belongs. Then Chemtrails will no longer be posted on Conspiracy websites, it will be main stream media [MSM] and talked about on the evening news. It will then expose the covert effort by Internet Trolls who are hiding the truth of Chemtrails from the citizens of the United States.

That might be a tad difficult, unless you can come up with some hard evidence --such as in situ sampling put through a real and objective lab with good chain of evidence, measurement, and statistical analyses -- to actually show the existence of "chem-trails" as being anything other than ice crystals.

Let's face it: posting hundreds of pictures of persistent contrails as "evidence" of "chem-trails" is like posting hundreds of pictures of Christmas-presents as "evidence" of Santa Claus.

I also don't think people who disagree with the "chem-trail" hypothesis are "Trolls", Internet or otherwise -- they are just people who have a different explanation for persistent aircraft contrails.

reply to post by Annee



Didn't even address the rest of my post? I worked hard on it.

It doesn't matter....

....and I am not any where near Phoenix or Scottsdale.

.....that I lived in the Phoenix Metro area. I know the State of Arizona well enough. No matter whether you are in Flagstaff, Yuma, or anywhere else in the state.

If you haven't yet, you should visit Flight Aware. Perhaps the website was too intimidating at first glance?

Here, this links directly to the page with Phoenix highlighted....you can scroll the map to wherever you are, it works a bit like Google Maps: flightaware.com...

This is the small inset map expanded to "Big Map": flightaware.com...

All of the little airplane icons in green are those NOT departing or arriving at the selected airport (In this case, KPHX). The blue airplanes are the "local" ones. Note how you can hover our mouse pointer over the icons, and get info about each flight.


Even more, I can give you a bit of pilot ground school (advanced).

Go to SkyVector --- it is a site that scans and uploads current aeronautical navigation charts for the USA.

Look in the menu bar near the top left, find the globe. Put the mouse cursor over it. Find the words "Enroute High", and click on them.

See in the bottom left of the big map of the USA? That white rectangle? Put the mouse cursor there, it will highlight to magenta...click it to open. That is Enroute High Chart "H-4".

Now, you will see the actual Jet Airway High Altitude Route Structure, as published and used for reference by airplanes en-route. The heavy black lines are the Jet Airways (see the letter 'J' and a number).

Note your specific location on the ground, once you get acquainted with the Chart, and find where you are. (Hint: Using that globe menu again, you can find other Charts that are designed for VFR [Visual Flight Rules] and have more landmarks and terrain features and elevations printed on them. Compare, then, to the High Charts).

Enjoy your learning experience. As I said, this is very advanced pilot training stuff, but it is needed to better understand the reality of our Air Traffic System, and how aviation actually works in the real world.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
I live in Mesa and work right across the street from Falcon Field. I saw a lot of persistent contrails, but that's not surprising; with the -40 deg air at 35,000 feet and the super-saturated conditions at ambient altitude, contrails are going to persist. It doesn't have anything to do with HAARP or "chemicals"; just the right kind of ambient conditions needed to keep the ice crystals in the aircraft exhaust from sublimating. Fall is here; we're going to see a lot more persistent contrails for a while.

I agree that explains most of them. And I am not about conspiracy Chemtrails.

I think its routine cloud seeding. We are and have been in drought conditions for a long time - - - even for a desert.

From my mesa I can clearly see planes turning and crossing in a Tic-Tac-Toe pattern. Not all of them. But some of them.

And it only happens when there is a storm/rain near the vicinity.

I know what I saw. And it was no holding pattern or training mission.

ProudBird do you live on the Chemtrail forums as a Contrail believer. That is so... weird!

You have been here a whole 7 months and this is your favorite forum. You don't think that is weird?

Originally posted by ProudBird
If you haven't yet, you should visit Flight Aware. Perhaps the website was too intimidating at first glance?

I'm 65 years old.

I KNOW what I saw. So you can can the attempts of insults and intimidation.

reply to post by dw31243


Amen . You know I back up take a good look at this. The ones trying to change the minds of those who are simply telling what they see and find as they search for the evidence needed to piece this together is like a nag.
I have seen people in these threads mocked and made fun of. I know it goes both ways. But if I butt my nose into someones biz. I can expect to be told to get lost eventually. I will have my first time to go into a thread that disbelieves in con/chem trails . I dont belong in a debate with people who have thier own beliefs on the subject, that is unless I am asked for my opinion/s . So why come in a thread and try to badger and argue people who have the right to voice thier feelings with out being JUMPED on by A gang that just comes in to argue and mock.
Why don't they start a thread. You wont see me in it. I dont have any desire to change or argue them into my views. They are all seem to be experts on everything and know more about what you see and where you live than you do!! The definition of insnity is? Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Some people even write books when they are experts on a subject. Thanks for the thread ..Lets see if I am right.

To put all the Internet Trolling to rest, let us take a look at the video again.

This is a video of Chemtrails over Coolidge, Arizona on October 28th, 2011. It is a time lapsed video of about 1 frame every 10 to 30 minutes [video is 1 frame every second which equals 10-30 minutes]. Notice how you can see the planes spray a chemical the lingers for several hours creating a hazy gray mist that blocks the blue sky and sun. The planes fly very high and do not land at the near by airport.

Does anyone else have videos or photos of Chemtrails [not contrails] over Arizona recently. Also, are Chemtrails being deployed as a weapon over the United states or as weather modification purposes?


This is the typical Chemtrail scenario.

Originally posted by dw31243
To put all the Internet Trolling to rest, let us take a look at the video again.

I'm not really interested in someone else's video.

I'm just giving my personal testimony.

And I have a very good pair of binoculars - - in case you think 65 is too old to see clearly.

Originally posted by Annee
II think its routine cloud seeding. We are and have been in drought conditions for a long time - - - even for a desert.

cloud seeding doesn't happen in clear skies for the reason....well.....you need to have clouds to seed!!

From my mesa I can clearly see planes turning and crossing in a Tic-Tac-Toe pattern. Not all of them. But some of them.

And it only happens when there is a storm/rain near the vicinity.

contrails often form when storms are on the way because conditions in front of a storm are often good for them - cirrus clooud has long ebeen a "rule of thumb" indicator for bad weather coming, and contrails and cirrus clouds form in hte same sort of conditions.

So yeah - there is often a strong link to weather.

I know what I saw. And it was no holding pattern or training mission.

You saw white lines in the sky - I certainly don't doubt it.

However cloud seeding does not make while lines like contrails - you can barely see cloud seeding "trails" even when you are looking for htem, and they are usually made by lighter aircraft at lower altitudes than airliners - there are lots of videos showing it happening on YT eg this one:

reply to post by Annee

I KNOW what I saw

No, not when you replied just up above:

I think its routine cloud seeding.

Try to understand when you wrote about Arizona's clear blue skies. First of all, cloud-seeding is NOT done in clear air. Ever.

Secondly, cloud-seeding is done at low altitudes....and of course, in the vicinity of the types of clouds that will make precipitation, such as cumulus and some stratus....not cirrus, ever.

The CONtrails constantly being called "chem"trails by the ill-informed are produced at high altitudes (well above 25,000 feet) which is the realm of cirrus clouds. Because, contrails are indeed a type of cirrus cloud.

Period.

I am wondering if you even tried to read any of the information I provided? Ask around, from qualified people who may be nearby....I'm talking actual meteorologists (not just a TV weatherman, unless he/she is a degreed meteorologist of course).

I'm just a *stranger* on the Internet who also happens to be a retired airline pilot, but of course you have no way to check the veracity of that claim...other than by checking the veracity of the information I post. You can seek out pilots you are acquainted with in real life, and ask them. You might even wish to take a few flying lessons, if you're the adventurous type.

This is a very sad myth and hoax ("chem"trails that are nothing other than normal contrails) that damages a lot of people, and causes them to waste their lives frivolously, getting *worked up* over the wrong things, based on poor understanding of actual science, and fueled by many who never bother to fact-check the original claims, made over a decade ago by a few con-artists who saw an opportunity to profit from the ill-informed and ignorant and paranoid.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
\However cloud seeding does not make while lines like contrails - you can barely see cloud seeding "trails" even when you are looking for htem, and they are usually made by lighter aircraft at lower altitudes than airliners - there are lots of videos showing it happening on YT eg this one:

Are you an expert scientist in this area - - that you are completely up to date on any new (maybe even secretive) methods? What is it "they" say about new technology? Its at least 50 years beyond what is known?

And I did not say it was cloud seeding. I said I think it is - - only because it occurs when there is a storm/rain in the vicinity.

The vicinity I'm talking about is actually hundreds of miles away.

I don't know what anyone else saw - - - but I do KNOW what I saw. And I do have a very good pair of binoculars.

reply to post by ProudBird


Feel free to believe or not believe whatever you want.

I KNOW what I saw.

Originally posted by Annee
I think its routine cloud seeding. We are and have been in drought conditions for a long time - - - even for a desert.

No argument there; we certainly are in drought conditions, and if cloud seeding worked, it'd be a good thing. But I think there're a couple of problems with the cloud-seeding thingy.

First, cloud seeding doesn't work very well, and it's not worth it unless you can put the rain just where you want it. For us, this would be either over a heavy agricultural area, like the Gila Valley down in Safford or maybe up in the White Mountains where it would provide runoff to fill up the SRP lakes.

Second, if a plane were cloud-seeding, it would want to do so as cheaply as possible. This means that it would not want to waste any fuel, given how expensive it is. In other words, the planes would fly a straight line for maybe ten miles, then come back and fly a parallel course over the clouds, and then another parallel pass. All the course changes would probably waste fuel.

Third, if you've ever seen cloud seeding (or saw some pictures of it) what happens is that the airplanes fly over a cloud that's already there, drop the silver iodide crystals on it, and within a few minutes, the cloud changes shape and within a half-hour or so, it starts to precipitate out. If the sky is clear when the plane is passing overhead, it can't be cloud-seeding; there're no clouds to seed!

Originally posted by AnneeAnd it only happens when there is a storm/rain near the vicinity.

I know what I saw. And it was no holding pattern or training mission.

Well, I don't know what you saw -- obviously, I wasn't there. But if what you saw were things that looked like airplane contrails only they persisted for a half hour or more, then it wouldn't be surprising if they were associated with storms.

Aircraft contrails are nothing but tiny crystals of ice flash-frozen when it comes out of the engine in theminus-forty degree temperature. If the temperature is at minus 40 or lower and the relative himidity is at 100% or higher (yes, it can be higher than 100%), then the ice crystals will not sublime (turn back into water vapor) but will stay around for a while. That's why speople see more persistent contrails when it's cooler and damper: that kind of conditions are what allows the contrails to persist and spread.

It's not that the contrails make the rain or the storms, it that the rain or storms make the persistent contrails possible.

Again, I didn't see what you saw; I'm just talking about persistent contrails. It's always a pleasure to help you younger folks out (and yes, I am older than you are LOL!)

Originally posted by Off_The_Street

Originally posted by Annee
I think its routine cloud seeding. We are and have been in drought conditions for a long time - - - even for a desert.

No argument there; we certainly are in drought conditions, and if cloud seeding worked, it'd be a good thing. But I think there's a couple of problems with the cloud-seeding thingy.

I agree - - from what I've researched on cloud seeding.

But - I've been doing this "conspiracy" thingy for 20 years. Stuff that's denied over and over - - - does seem to have a way of coming to the surface eventually.

I've lived in AZ for 20 years. I've seen thousands of contrails - - under varying conditions. I KNOW what I saw.

Originally posted by dw31243
To put all the Internet Trolling to rest, let us take a look at the video again.

This is a video of Chemtrails over Coolidge, Arizona on October 28th, 2011. It is a time lapsed video of about 1 frame every 10 to 30 minutes [video is 1 frame every second which equals 10-30 minutes]. Notice how you can see the planes spray a chemical the lingers for several hours creating a hazy gray mist that blocks the blue sky and sun. The planes fly very high and do not land at the near by airport.

Well, someone who doesn't believe in "chem-trails" would say that yes, the aircraft are quite high, because contrails only persist when the ambient temperature is at minus 40 deg or lower. So you wouldn't expect them to land at, say, Sky Harbor or Yuma International.

Originally posted by dw31243Also, are Chemtrails being deployed as a weapon over the United states or as weather modification purposes?

Well, if they're used for 'weather modification', they didn't seem to work in that example; I mean, it didn't start to rain or anything. And if they were meant to 'block out the Sun', well, that didn't work very well either; for most of the day, the parking lot was in the Sun. And if it were a weapon, I didn't read about anyone around Picacho Peak or Florence dying or anything, nor did I hear about any sort of sickness at the Pinal County Fairgrounds.

Just looking at the evidence that you posted, it seems like the "chem-trails" didn't do much of anything at all.

Originally posted by dw31243This is the typical Chemtrail scenario

.

If that's the case, the hypotheses of weapons or weather-modding or blocking or whatever don't seem very realistic. Maybe they're just ice-crystals at 35-40 thousand feet after all!

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
However cloud seeding does not make while lines like contrails - you can barely see cloud seeding "trails" even when you are looking for htem, and they are usually made by lighter aircraft at lower altitudes than airliners - there are lots of videos showing it happening on YT eg this one:

Are you an expert scientist in this area - - that you are completely up to date on any new (maybe even secretive) methods? What is it "they" say about new technology? Its at least 50 years beyond what is known?

I'm an aircraft engineer, have worked for a national aviation authority (the equivalent of the FAA), as a QA engineer, and planned passenger aircraft maintenance.

I still work in those areas.

If there is "new secret technology" for cloud seeding fitted to pasenger aircraft then it is either illegal, or I know about it - because I DO know about the latest developments in civilian aircraft technology, I work with people who have approvals to design changes to civilian aircraft, and who inspect aircraft for confomity to approved (ie legal) specifications - and that is something I used to do myself.

They either have to approve any such new technology, or overlook it when they find it. And neither is happening.

So I am quite confident there is no such secret technology fitted to any aircraft they work with - legal or otherwise - and that's a few hundred, and they also produce persistent contrails.

Now you can chose to believe that there is something secret going on that I am hiding from you - or you can choose to believe that contrails are contrails and behave just like they have always behaved - albeit there are probably more around now than at any time since massed bombing raids over Germany in WW2.

If you choose to believe the former then you are calling me a liar and you are saying I am part of the consipracy - as are my colleagues.

Now of course you don't know me from a bar of soap - but I am not going to sit around letting anyone use crappy science and ignorance to slander me without responding.

And I did not say it was cloud seeding. I said I think it is - - only because it occurs when there is a storm/rain in the vicinity.

The vicinity I'm talking about is actually hundreds of miles away.

Yep - have a look at this - www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
However cloud seeding does not make while lines like contrails - you can barely see cloud seeding "trails" even when you are looking for htem, and they are usually made by lighter aircraft at lower altitudes than airliners - there are lots of videos showing it happening on YT eg this one:

Are you an expert scientist in this area - - that you are completely up to date on any new (maybe even secretive) methods? What is it "they" say about new technology? Its at least 50 years beyond what is known?

I'm an aircraft engineer, have worked for a national aviation authority (the equivalent of the FAA), as a QA engineer, and planned passenger aircraft maintenance.

Sorry - - but I don't think that qualifies you - - as knowing anything more then what is in front of you.

reply to post by Annee


And what are your qualifications for deciding the adequacy of my qualifications, and those of all my colleagues??

Edit: And while you are at that, what are your qualifications for knowing more than what is in front of you that are so much better than mine??

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by dw31243

 

Amen . You know I back up take a good look at this. The ones trying to change the minds of those who are simply telling what they see and find as they search for the evidence needed to piece this together is like a nag.

See, there is where you are wrong. You shouldn't have a conclusion (chemtrails are real) and be looking for evidence to support it, you should form a conclusion based on the evidence.

Now I understand why you cling to your belief the way you do. You essentially want them to be real, because if they aren't, you're wrong. Sorry to be so direct, but one day you will be guided to the scientific method and evidence based reasoning and your perception of reality will be closer to the truth.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by dw31243
I have seen people in these threads mocked and made fun of. I know it goes both ways. But if I butt my nose into someones biz. I can expect to be told to get lost eventually. I will have my first time to go into a thread that disbelieves in con/chem trails . I dont belong in a debate with people who have thier own beliefs on the subject, that is unless I am asked for my opinion/s . So why come in a thread and try to badger and argue people who have the right to voice thier feelings with out being JUMPED on by A gang that just comes in to argue and mock.

This is an open forum, you are free to come in here and spout unfounded crockery just as I am free to come in here and call you out for it. Do you favor censorship?

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by Annee

 

And what are your qualifications for deciding the adequacy of my qualifications, and those of all my colleagues??

I KNOW what I saw. That is my qualification.