Masonic Inquisition- pass/fail

The below, 1st post, was in answer to a few questions presented in another thread:
ATS thread

After due thought and deliberation it seems to me what is needed is an inquisition. Not wanting to put 'masons' on trial but masonry in general it seems the best way to accomplish this is by specifically announcing the the purpose upfront. This is NOT disinfo or some sly way to promote masonry. Read the first few posts and you should have any lingering suspicions alleviated.

However, if not then should any pro-masonic posts enter herein by reply you will know.
�you will know me by my works�

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

You people-

Here we (who ever that is) are thrown a challenge at 12:28pm (mid-day) on a workday and by 7:20pm the challenge ended.

Let's just call IT an even five 5 hours, shall we? No sense quibbling over a few minutes.

Problems with masonry-
Personal, esoteric, religious or what? The challenge limits or bounds are left to our own surmise.

I surmise there are no limits.

I surmise this is a red-herring meant to draw out anti-masonic sentiment and statements.

I surmise disinfo at its best.

It is interesting that masons have seen fit to provide 'atta-boys' to the poster.


However, as I have often been wrong I will continue.

Are there any �good� masons?
I conjecture probably 70% of all active (participating) masons are and maybe 30-40% of the inactives. The inactives by far outnumber the actives.
- - -
Below I present problems as I perceive them.

Problems- I change the challenger proscription of providing a shopping list and will instead provide just a few �openers�in the spirit of �deny ignorance.�

IF masonry were as postulated, that is:
a secret fraternal organization asserting the real nature of the Fraternity as a spiritual force, as "away of life" which seeks to improve men morally and spiritually, by
associating with other idealistic men who want to improve the quality of life around them by means of a brotherhood which emphasizes the Fatherhood of God. then why, pray tell would it (masonry) have such vitriolic and many numbered detractors?

Because there is more than one masonry?

IF masonry were all about self-improvement, enlightenment and community assistance then why are so very many politicians either:
proud to be masons or
hiding that the are masons?

This all depends on the area. In some areas being masonic is �no bug deal� or is positive, in others being a mason is �a big deal� and is negative.

IF masonry were a positive then why would a politician hide that fact?

IF masonry places brotherhood above all other obligations a man can enter into then does masonry hide the facts that some of its members have �aided and abetted� the enemy?

IF masonry has no religious leanings or directions then why is any belief a requirement?

Masons require a �symbolic� death and resurrection of initiates- is this a mockery of the crucifixion?

IF masonry were to enlighten and educate its members then why are the �rites� given in allegory?

Masons are taught that their �tongue will torn out by its roots?�

Is this enlightened?

IF masonry were about the brotherhood of man(kind) then why does masonry strive to lay claim, tenuous at best, to ancient mystery schools that taught things most religions find offensive?

IF masonry were a modern (200 years or so) creation for the betterment of human relations then why claim fatherhood from Soloman and Hiram Abif?


- - - -

I have buried two grandfathers that were masons, the other two were not. Being a mason makes no one good, a good man is a good man.

See:

Original posted by muppet
I have to say the situation on this site isn't helped all that much by certain freemasons here (who shall remain nameless), who make a habit of raining a torrent of personal abuse and ridicule at any one who raises legitimate concerns or criticisms. I experienced it myself when I had to audacity to suggest freemasonry was not an infallible organization. The unwritten rule here "Thou shalt not question the Craft", I'm afraid simply adds fuel to the fires of suspicion in many peoples minds.

(another one)
Respect is earned, not expected by right.

((I wished I had another 'atta-boy' point to spend))

This is enough for now except one final �thought:�

Why are there so many masonic web sites? Why are there some that portray anti-masonic leaning but then present pro-masonic rantings?

Have fun-

the widow's son

- - end of first post set- - -

Originally posted by Bastet

my father was an equal amongst his "brothers". They organised, did their thing - no matter that my dad's clothes were threadbare, his collars frayed, & his boots stuffed with newspaper & cardboard for soles. I even recall 2 of his "brethren" calliing in at our tenement "single-end" to see me after I'd been in hospital when my father was o/seas - we'd never had such "grand company" visit us - one I remember was a solicitor. They were very kind to us too, 'nuff said.

I agree with this totally. In the dealings I have had with operative masons that had lodge activity I also have found as you. This is one of the beauties of fraternal societies- not just the masons.

Your dad went for reasons that he found. He was a good man when he entered? From your post of high praise I imagine so.

As I said (posted):

Are there any �good� masons?
I conjecture probably 70% of all active (participating) masons are
-and-
have buried two grandfathers that were masons, the other two were not. Being a mason makes no one good, a good man is a good man.

Likewise I cited

muppet

Respect is earned, not expected by right.

In much of masonry it is admission by invitation. I imagine that your father was a well thought of �man of principle.� Any organization would count such as he as an equal and an asset.

LTD601

Mr. Rogers was a 33rd degree Mason.

O.Kaaaay- so what's the point?

Originally posted by df1


I find your position confusing in that you are wearing a libertarian political banner

Really?
Well, I'm also Green

df1
a libertarian would have no problem . . .

Why on earth would you think this?

No problems with secret societies? Maybe you read a different intent than I- thhis is all too true!

So are we getting sidelined into Libertarian politics to cloud any masonic discussions?

df1You speak in broad generalities, without defining anything concrete. I would be interested in hearing some specific problems with Masons and your solution as to what the Masons, the government or society in general should do to make the Masons acceptable to you.

Really?
You want to hear about removing all masonic jewelry? All masonic ownership of real estate? All masonic requirements for members to swear fealty to a secret fraternity upon pain of death or having their �tongue torn by its root?�

I find this hard to believe df1, hard to believe.

df1
I surmise that you will type alot, but still fail to offer anything tangible.

I surmise that your problem with the Masons is religious intolerance.

I surmise that you are a libertarian in name only , but a socialist in practice.


The beauty of surmising is that it requires no facts or evidence and it can cut both ways.
.

Amazing- I post at least eight (8) problems and you, df, want me to prove my political bona fides?

I will choose one of your �surmises� and address it fully:
�. . . a socialist in practice.�

Firstly I would need to know what type of socialist you refer-
a national socialist? Are you claiming I'm a �nazi?�
a communal socialist? Are you claiming I'm a communist?

You know, of course, that I am an American.

note to non-Americans:
Socialism has an entirely different meaning in America to Americans than anywhere else on earth.

I am amazed df1, simply amazed. As both of the above were vociferous in their anti-mansonry perhaps this is what you hint at?

Of course the other shot was �religious intolerance.�
Perhaps are you referring to my asking a question? (that all of the masons quickly ducked)

PG
Masons require a �symbolic� death and resurrection of initiates- is this a mockery of the crucifixion?

One of the pro-mason �brethren� throws out a challenge and the best that can be managed is:
call it quits after 5 hours,
(then when that doesn't work)
make political innuendos and try to side track the entire issue. Tsk, tsk

I expected better. I haven't even gotten warmed up.

PS:

Originally posted by LTD602
You should become a Mason, Gadfly. You'll probably end up liking it.

[edit on 1-9-2004 by LTD602]

ROFLMO

Hmm, I wonder who I could ask to �go up for me?� Tough decision - - -j/k

How do you know? Maybe I have, maybe I am? '\shrug/ Would I know?
what do you other guys think? should I

Just so no one gets any �ideas�- call me what you want, block or shun me- facts are still facts and questions are still to be answered.

I will NEVER complain about a post-
the widows son

Let me tell you why I am interested in 'The Masons' and I beleive 'Something' is going on in the highest ranks.

Its was to do with a dream I had. A dream I had before I knew anything about freemasons. The only thing I knew at this point was they do dodgey handshakes, but here is the dream:-

I was walking by myself in the Heart of London, Westminster area I guess. I came to a public square in which there were 4 very old and important looking buildings. There was no one else around but I could hear talking in the distance, like a conference. Anyway I approached the building the talking was coming from and was faced with about 20 very steep steps, at the top I could see a door open but couldn't see in because the step were so steep.

I walked up the steps and saw a huge group of people taking in a hall. I got right up to the massive double door and the hall was pure white everywhere. There must have been about 400 people in the hall from ALL races and religions. The topic being discussed was the near completion of the enslave of humans, and the resources of the planet secured.

At the back of the room in a long row were these hooded 'things'. Then 2 of them turned around and they were VERY pale. I knew they were not Human but I didn't know what they were. There eyes were blue but there skin was the whitest I have ever seen. They smiled at me and looked to the front, at the front were a long row of red hooded beings.

At this point I ran and tried to leave London, but the tube trains were all mixed up. The dream moved onto something else then.

So what is the big deal with masons and this dream?? well remember I didn't know what Masons wore in their meeting or anything I saw this at a later date.



These too freaked me out because there faces are pale white like my dream. Also there robes are exactly the same apart from the red apron over them.

I then saw From Hell and found out Jack the ripper was a freemason, and that I read else where the killings were ritualistic although they served a purpose as well.

Then Someone showed me this picture from the film 'Eyes Wide Shut'

Again the robed people rang a bell, also that was the exact colour red the other beings at the front were wearing.

So they are not the 2 most ground breaking sources, but I dreamt of these hooded beings with a freemason connection before I even saw them.

Thats my dream, thats what I came across after it. Thats why I have questions.

Question regarding the post above:
Do masons really act dead and then come back alive in a ritual??? if that is true can a mason explain why people would do such a wierd thing?

[edit on 1-9-2004 by 7th_Chakra]

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
Let me tell you why I am interested in 'The Masons' and I beleive 'Something' is going on in the highest ranks.

So they are not the 2 most ground breaking sources, but I dreamt of these hooded beings with a freemason connected before I even saw them.

Thats my dream, thats what I came across after it. Thats why I have question.

D-mn!

That is wild! (let me digest this some more)

Hey, thanks for the pic- way cool!

Anyway, have you (real life) gone to the same part of London?

Back in another time I always tried to physicate (test out dreams in the physical world) dreams that I thought had special meaning.

What do masons in London wear? (real life)

Did any of the ones in your dream have aprons?

Who runs the tube trains? Find out- is he/they a mason?

Not saying you had any prophecy or anything like that, but you could have 'built' a dream from spurious and seemingly unconnected facts.

I take lots of notes- I have note books everywhere I go. This way I don't have to remember. I have proof. I learned this while doing some things I no longer do and it has been very useful.

It is surprising the seemingly insignificant things our mind pulls together. I noticed a �chakra� in your screen name- has it been attacked or harmed? Perhaps your crown or head?

I have never been 'right into' that side of London.

I don't know what Masons in London wear??

No 'robed being' in my dream had aprons. Just all black robes or all red robes.

Can't find anything about who owns the underground?

I have a dream book I write in but this was before I had that.

As far as I am aware I haven't been attacked or hurt. Never been physically attacked either (touch wood). 'Apparently' I have a few very strong spirit guides anyway so I hope they will take care of me on the physic front as I don't know s**t about protecting myself! maybe you can help?

[edit on 1-9-2004 by 7th_Chakra]

www.livingstonemusic.net...

Something for you to consider, Chakra.

By the way, Dietrich Eckart was my great-grandfather. Although he was German, he married a Hungarian woman. Both of my parents are Hungarian. I'd love to tell you more, but I'm not allowed to. Those who I serve have no qualms with the kind of information that is in the above link. . . . they KNOW that most people will pass it off as hocus-pocus. There is a far, far deper reality, though.

By the way, the robes that are "used", are not actually black with red, Chakra, but black and purple. There is ONE robe, however, that is black, red, and white (familiar colours??), that I am told might one day be mine.





[edit on 1-9-2004 by LTD602]

Thanks for the link but I don't know why I am supposed to consider it? Are you saying I dreamt about Nazis? please explain why you think I should consider that page you posted??. Also I knew most of the info on that page. What has that got to do with anything on here? I honestly can't connect your url with this post?

Unless your saying I shouldn't post info on freemasons like that unless I want to get evil spirits knocking at my door??

Or maybe I should be researching the Nazi connection in this NWO and not the freemason (if there is one)?

ps: I have no qualms with the info on spirits etc. No doubts in my mind that unseen powers are around us, good and bad. What I am saying is hopfully my spirit guides take care of the unseen bad powers towards me. If there is any that is.

[edit on 1-9-2004 by 7th_Chakra]

delete

[edit on 1-9-2004 by 7th_Chakra]

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
The below, 1st post, was in answer to a few questions presented in another thread:

After due thought and deliberation it seems to me what is needed is an inquisition. Not wanting to put 'masons' on trial but masonry in general it seems the best way to accomplish this is by specifically announcing the the purpose upfront.

Since Freemasonry is nothing other than a group of individuals, you are in fact putting Masons on trial despite your denial. As stated in a previous post to our "grand inquisitor", it seems odd that someone purporting to be a libertarian would take such a position, as libertarians typically argue that "society" is just a group of individuals.

PublicGadfly: It seems that you are either being dishonest in your position toward Masons or that you are being dishonest about being a Libertarian. At this point in the interest of fairness, I must ask the "grand inquistor" to divulge all organizations of which he/she is/has been a member. It is only fair to either have the sword cut both ways or to sheath the sword.
.

Incidentally, my post to Chakra was a joke . . . . . I'm not in line for any Swastika-inspired robe, lol.

As for Hitler's occult obsessions . . . . . I have no understanding of them or any opinion on them.

As I suspected, "PublicGadfly" is anti-Mason due to intolerant religious beliefs, as the quoted post from another thread demonstrates. I am particularly amused at how religous zealots show up on ATS attacking Masonic secrecy while concealing their own religious beliefs which would make the reasons for their religion based intolerance obvious to all.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
I know a lot of Catholics...

Those who direct the Illuminati are against Christ and for Satan

I find it upsetting that he calls himself "Public Gadfly" (a reference to Socrates), yet is so distant from Socrates in his Modus operandi. Socrates did his best to question standardised definitions. Socrates never took a side on who was "good" and who was not. We see something very different in Public Gadfly's obvious partisanship. No need to question a papal bull that says Freemasonry is eeevil -- that's not the kind of "Gadfly" he is.

Public Gadfly, you keep writing that Masonry is by invitation...

Sir, it is a policy among the vast majority of masons NOT TO INVITE ANYONE. A man must ask.

There are only four (and in some jurisdictions, five) requirements to be made a mason:

1) The man must ask
2) The candidate must be a man
3) Of good moral standing
4) He must believe in God and the immortality of the soul

and the last

5) He cannot be a felon (Though #3 pretty much says the same thing)

Thanks for the opportunity to clear that up.

4) He must believe in God and the immortality of the soul

Let me clarify that it is belief in a "Supreme being" in my jurisidiction Immortality of the soul, at least in my jursidiction, does not play into it. Nor is "God" mentioned at any interview. Just from my experience . . .

LTD602,

I understand now. I am shaking my head at how pointless your joke post was.

The being in my dream have nothing to do with Nazis, despite the un-human white skin and blue eyes.

what a waste of time.

I'm sorry you haven't found an explanation of your dream yet.

It sounds interesting. Whether or not I belive it is a different matter. It is either an indirect (and poorly crafted - a la Hollywood) attempt to make insinuations against masonry, or you actually HAD that dream. I'm inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt.

If you did in fact have this dream, then right now, it is nothing more than an interesting and faintly frightening series of images and sounds.

What conclusions are you inclined to draw? I don't know its meaning.

Where did you get that first picture, by the way?

[edit on 1-9-2004 by LTD602]

I don't know what to think. Although masons wear hooded robes and the people in my dream had them too, somehow I think the people in the building were above any known body. As if masons were a front and they throw it away as it wasn't needed anymore.

After talking to masons on here it seems all is well, however I remember feeling as if everything I knew about religion and secret societies was a front in my dream so I am am in two minds. I feel even masons don't know what goes on sometimes.....???

In my dream they had peoples from every religion, or maybe leaders of religion I don't know. I did not see the speaker though!

All I know is dreams can be messages and as I don't beleive in coincidence you can see why I ask questions right?

You clearly have an interest in the first picture which mean you know what it means and who those people are. Can you explain what it is and what that ark is?

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
I don't know what to think. Although masons wear hooded robes and the people in my dream had them too,

Sorry, what? No, we don't wear hooded robes. I have nothing against you having a dream, but you're incorrect in saying this.

Likewise, regardless of what you saw in your dream, it most likely has significance to your own soul, not the outside world. If I had a dream that my father tried to kill me with a knife, would that mean that I should try to get him arrested?

so no form of masonary wears robes like that? what about other secret societys?

Alex, no disrespect but I am aware of my inner dreams to do with me and my outer dreams to do with the physical world I live. This dream was not about me, I am certain of that much. Nothing in that dream was directed towards me, other then 2 beings turning and smiling, then completely ignoring me and the trains getting messed up. Then it moved to another dream anyway.

I understand where your coming from but I gotta say again, I will not 'personally' accept this dream as a dream about me.


Anyway, the reason I posted it was to tell masons here why I ask questions here today. Hopefully you will understand a little why I ask what I do and I am not some 'band wagon' troll.

Unless anyone can explain what the first picture is I'll see you all in another thread.

Just an observation, first I would like to state that I take distance from the word inquisition or trial, as we are all free and no one on this forum can be put to trial by anything but an appointed and acknowledged authority.

But is see some resemblance in this thread and with the election campaign currently in America, when the accused don�t want to answer a question or don�t like a question, they start to attack the credibility of the accuser, now this has nothing to do with anything.

I am a pagan does that discredit me?
I am a soldier does that discredit me?
I am a magician does that discredit me?
I have seen first hand how some forces in this world works for a New World Order does that discredit me?
I believe that the illuminated masonry has a part in this conspiracy does that discredit me?
I am a father does that discredit me?
I believe to be equal to God does that discredit me?

Now if any one can answer YES to any of the above questions, I will stop with further input to this thread, now I only accept answer from the masons as it is them that are on �trial� or the target of this so-called inquisition.

Again I would ask you all to stop with the personal attacks and view the big picture, if this is going to devolve into a name calling you are bad and you smell especially you AK, I really don�t want to waste my energy in here.

Also 7th chakra has his beliefs and I don�t think you should joke with that, I see very powerful things in my dreams and I have the power to do what you call lucid dreaming I call it dream control, so I think that many things can be learned from dreams, you should respect his views as hard facts because no one can prove him wrong, it is his dream and his dream alone.

Looking forward to reply regarding if you think that I should participate in this thread!


Baron Bilbo Baggins
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone

[edit on 1-9-2004 by NeonHelmet]

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
so no form of masonary wears robes like that? what about other secret societys?

I have never been in any Masonic Lodge or appendant body where hooded robes were worn. There has been one instance (in an appendant body) where I wore a robe-like outfit for a single ritual, but i) it was a cape, not a robe, ii) it had no hood (necessarily, because a hat was worn with it), and iii) it was white satin (as is appropriate -- the word candidate has a connotation of "whiteness" (not racially, of course)). I do not know of any Masonic or para-Masonic body which has hooded robes.

I understand where your coming from but I gotta say again, I will not 'personally' accept this dream as a dream about me.

Well, that's fine, but dreams are so complicated and symbolic -- something in a dream doesn't always represent its physical self. Somethimes dreams take a lot of interpretation to discover what they "really" mean.

Unless anyone can explain what the first picture is I'll see you all in another thread.

Here is a statement on the topic of (any) pentagon. What shape do you get when you form a union of a triangle and a square, along one side of the square? A pentagon. Thus the pentagon indicates the co-mingling of the triangle and the square. If you connect the points of the pentagon, you get a five-pointed star. Thus this star is used also as the co-mingling of the spirit of the square and the triangle. I'll let you do your own work on what this means.