Global tax/government!? I am done with Occupy...

As with any political movement I found points I both agreed and disagreed with regarding the Occupy Wall Street initiative. I am strongly against any type of corporate bailout or wellfare. If you can not run your bank/business/corporation properly than the hard-working citizens should not be shouldered with your poor decision making and allow you to go out and make the same mistakes again. However, I did not agree with the abolishment of capitlism or a move towards socialism/communism that some were advoacting. With that being said it appears that Adbusters, considered the driving force behind the Occupy movement, is calling for a global tax and a corresponding global government to administer said tax:

On October 29, on the eve of the G20 Leaders Summit in France, let's the people of the world rise up and demand that our G20 leaders immediately impose a 1% #ROBINHOOD tax on all financial transactions and currency trades. Let's send them a clear message: We want you to slow down some of that $1.3-trillion easy money that's sloshing around the global casino each day – enough cash to fund every social program and environmental initiative in the world. adbusters.org

From the Los Angles Occupy protests:

United for Global Democracy. On October 15, 2011, united in our diversity, united for global change, we demand global democracy, global governance by the people for the people, inspired by our sisters and brothers in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Syria, Bahrain, Palestine-Israel, Spain, and Greece, we too call for a regime change, a global regime change, today we demand replacing the G8 with the whole of humanity, the G7,000,000,000. source

This sentiment is parroted on countless other sites and blogs associated with the movement.

A global tax/governement? Really? This is the solution? More government? More tax? Let me tell you where that leads.....more corruption and the middle class getting squeezed further. Corporations do not pay tax in esscence, any tax we try to place on them they send right back to the end user; you and me. I am tired of seeing my money (just as I am sure you feel about yours) going to bail out idiots who do not deserve it. Allowing a global government to oversee such a tax will only magnify the problem. I really never thought I would see the day were the average citizen would call out for a global government.

We're just decaying into complete ignorance. It gets worse all the time.

I would be willing to bet that 99% of the people out there protesting have NO knowledge of basic economics whatsoever.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


I share your sentiment. Marxism is so intrenched in our society here in America that even you use Marxist termonology in your post. The term "midle class" was coined by Marx. I do it too.. we all do it. A global tax is the ultimate form of communism, and it would be the "open door" that would eventually lead to a one world government and currency.

a two finger salute to a global government and global tax.. I dont acknowledge any government or leaders now and damn sure wont acknowledge any government or leader in future. Its my life I live it on my terms. Governments / leaders are for those too stupid to think for themselves and to lazy to accept responsibility for their actions.. They can stuff taxes as well if they want money they can go earn it like everyone else instead of extorting it..

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Gee, it's almost like TPTB set up this whole Arab Spring / Occupy movement to make The People beg for the New World Order global government. They know they have to make it look like we wanted this so that future generations will remain docile and manageable under increasingly Draconian and dystopian regulations. The People of America watched the War Machine rage out of control for a century with the pacifier of democracy stuck in their mouths. If you blame The People for the nation's problems, there's nobody to revolt against. Just when the People are about to wake up, we get shoehorned into a new system of invisible slavery. The JUDGE was right when he paraphrased a famous quote on the daily show; The Government which works the best, governs the least. Not the government which is broken and crooked should be expanded to a global level.

There is nothing in the two quotes you provided that specifically calls for a global tax and/or government system.

They are not asking for a "global tax" or a "global government". They are asking each G20 leader to pass a "Robin Hood tax" in their respective countries (thus making it "global"), and they are asking the 7 billion people of the world to unite for democracy and change in their respective countries.

Originally posted by yonnie
There is nothing in the two quotes you provided that specifically calls for a global tax and/or government system.

They are not asking for a "global tax" or a "global government". They are asking each G20 leader to pass a "Robin Hood tax" in their respective countries (thus making it "global"), and they are asking the 7 billion people of the world to unite for democracy and change in their respective countries.

If I could give you a hundred stars, I would. People don't read the actual articles on ATS anymore, they just take at face value whatever the OP tells them and then start arguing about it. Thank you!

Sometimes I wonder if the human race isn't reaching the end of its warranty period...

The more I watch the OWS protests,the more I am convinced the vast, vast majority of the protestors have no concept of business, democracy, economics, or even simple fairness. Instead of a protest against abuses of power, both financial and political, it has become a protest against the 'other guy'.

Please no one get me wrong on this. I support a protest; I am just not sure I can support this protest. I know people are hurting badly. I have watched for decades as we have spiraled down into this mass of selfishness and immorality we call society, and for the first couple I actually called for a revolution before it was too late. Now, unfortunately, I believe it is too late.

I support the right of the protesters to protest. I do not support some of the tactics being used by law enforcement on American citizens. I do not support the supposed right of some protesters to invade businesses and give impromptu speeches on private property, but I do support their right to assemble without regard to superfluous ordinances and excuses.

In short, I support common sense.

There is little of that common sense in this protest, as the OP points out. OWS is not about trying to make a change; it is about people hurting and not having the ability to comprehend what went wrong. The demands overall have been laughable for the most part, and this one is no exception. Yet, the protests continue to grow and expand, and the confrontations between two diametrically opposed groups continue to intensify.

The police and the homeowners and the businesses want and expect peaceful common-sense actions by the protesters, and the right to the fruits of their labors. The protesters want and expect anything and everything that they think they deserve, even if those demands are for them to be allowed to do the very thing to others that have been done to them. This cannot end well.

My considered suggestion at this point: get the easy chair in front of the TV, stock up on popcorn and Mountain Dews, have fresh batteries in the remote, and enjoy the show while we all can. It will take one martyr or one dead cop to ignite all this into massive violence and death on a scale we as Americans have never seen. The last time this happened was 1865. Back then you knew who your were fighting; you knew which side your neighbor was on. This time around, things won't be so easy.

I for one know which side I am on: mine. I plan on sitting this one out if at all possible.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by yonnie
There is nothing in the two quotes you provided that specifically calls for a global tax and/or government system.

They are not asking for a "global tax" or a "global government". They are asking each G20 leader to pass a "Robin Hood tax" in their respective countries (thus making it "global"), and they are asking the 7 billion people of the world to unite for democracy and change in their respective countries.

Really?

"..we too call for a regime change, a global regime change..."

A 'global regime change' to what? I can name quite a few countries that ALREADY have a democracy. What do you think they are planning on 'regime changing' these to? Sorry, the intention is quite clear to me.

Also, the G20 is not GLOBAL. It is only the G20, so any changes by them would not be considered global. Nice try though...

Edit to add:

From the London Occupy Wall Street:

"We're staying forever," insists Bryn Phillips. "We're staying until the rector says we have to go, and he says we can stay, so we're staying until our demands are met."

Asked what those demands are, Phillips reels off a list which veers from the idealistic to the jokey, which his friend, artist and fellow protester Laura May, says "sounds like a Christmas wish list" -- and which suggests the campers may be here until well into the new year.

"We're a solidarity movement. We want to replace the G7 with the G-seven-billion, we want a global democracy: Government by the people, for the people, not by governments acting for the big banks," he says. source

More (from a pro-Occupy site):

Young Moroccan militants came to demonstrate against capitalism and for a global democracy. source

Even more:

One protester spoke about a global democracy statement, which has circulated to marches around the world. The New York assembly will take a vote as early as tomorrow if they endorse the statement, which calls for drastic changes to global governance and the financial system. source

'Drastic changes to GLOBAL governance'? Really? Does it need to be clearer?

Also, piss on you New York Assembly for evening entertaining this, let alone taking it up for a vote.

I don't want ANY tax of any description until government responds in earnest to the will of the people. No more corporate finagling. All laws must be simple, to the point, and succinct. If we're all required to know and obey every single law out there, we need to be able to understand it without all the crap. That's not a matter of intelligence at all. I have a body but I'm not going to be a medical doctor just to walk around in it. I have kids but I shouldn't have to be a pediatrician. I have pets but I'm not going to study veterinary science. I have plants but I'm not a horticulturist. I eat but I'm neither a farmer nor ... okay yes I am versed in the culinary arts. But still! Enough is enough. Cut the crap and let us live without being criminals at every turn. Let us live honestly and with dignity. Let us engage government if and when we need them. They must not have a life of their own. They must not be bought and sold. They must not regard us as their possessions or subjects. WE THE PEOPLE. This planet is our collective soul. WE make the rules now. They do our bidding. That is as it should be. Banks are the same. We don't bow to them anymore. WE MAKE THE RULES.

Slightly off topic but you're going to see those words coming out more and more. I've said them for years now and have been simply scoffed at and brushed aside. This is our time now. The meek are going to inherit this Earth. Not by force, but because it's ours. The entire planet is ours. No more stupid borders. No more stupid taxes, no more stupid laws, no more stupid controls. This is OUR life. WE make the bloody rules.

You may not be entirely ready for these words. Let them sink in. Our communities spring up according to our will and wishes. We have our own ethos, our own everything, not in competition with anyone else but because this is how we want to live. Happiness, contentedness, benevolence, peace. It's worth taking time to consider. If we're going to fight for something, shouldn't it end up as we really want it? Our total freedom and sovereignty are at stake. Our lives could be absolutely golden. Our evolution is at hand. Take the leap.

Originally posted by spacekc929

Originally posted by yonnie
There is nothing in the two quotes you provided that specifically calls for a global tax and/or government system.

They are not asking for a "global tax" or a "global government". They are asking each G20 leader to pass a "Robin Hood tax" in their respective countries (thus making it "global"), and they are asking the 7 billion people of the world to unite for democracy and change in their respective countries.

If I could give you a hundred stars, I would. People don't read the actual articles on ATS anymore, they just take at face value whatever the OP tells them and then start arguing about it. Thank you!

lol and where do the two of you, wise men, think that is going to lead?

Have you heard of the term "Problem, reaction, solution"?

The "Occupy" movements have been engineered. And no, I won't be providing any evidence/links on this subject. I've done plenty of that in other posts, on occupy threads.

reply to post by TheRedneck

I guess thats true for the vast, vast majority of all mankind.

The thing is... more educated decisions of the people require more accessibility of education for everyone.
To this end, education must be a fundamental right... and this is very unlikely to happen.

So, for the time being, we are stuck with people who can't make educated decisions, can't formulate specific demands and can't understand complex economic relations... or can't even read.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
From the Los Angles Occupy protests:

United for Global Democracy. On October 15, 2011, united in our diversity, united for global change, we demand global democracy, global governance by the people for the people, inspired by our sisters and brothers in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Syria, Bahrain, Palestine-Israel, Spain, and Greece, we too call for a regime change, a global regime change, today we demand replacing the G8 with the whole of humanity, the G7,000,000,000. source

This sentiment is parroted on countless other sites and blogs associated with the movement.

A global tax/governement? Really? This is the solution? More government? More tax?

edit on 29-10-2011 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude has no beer.

No one said Global Government except you.

the term used was "Global Democracy".. followed by the words "by the people".

That means no government rule, but allowing us to rule ourselves.
a TRUE Democracy is a great and powerful thing.
Putting the power litteraly back into your own hands.

In a Democracy, you do not elect LEADERS.. you elect REPRESENTATIVES OF THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

when you stop calling them leaders and understand that they are not decision makers.. we are.

They are not " DECIDERS".. it's their elected positions that require them to follow OUR will, whether they agree or not.

If you expect a "leader" to take care of you, you are already screwed.

Semantics aside, do you really not understand what's happening around you?

Originally posted by BadNinja68
No one said Global Government except you.

Is that so? You must have missed all of this:

From the London Occupy Wall Street:

"We're staying forever," insists Bryn Phillips. "We're staying until the rector says we have to go, and he says we can stay, so we're staying until our demands are met."

Asked what those demands are, Phillips reels off a list which veers from the idealistic to the jokey, which his friend, artist and fellow protester Laura May, says "sounds like a Christmas wish list" -- and which suggests the campers may be here until well into the new year.

"We're a solidarity movement. We want to replace the G7 with the G-seven-billion, we want a global democracy: Government by the people, for the people, not by governments acting for the big banks," he says. source

More (from a pro-Occupy site):

Young Moroccan militants came to demonstrate against capitalism and for a global democracy. source

Even more:

One protester spoke about a global democracy statement, which has circulated to marches around the world. The New York assembly will take a vote as early as tomorrow if they endorse the statement, which calls for drastic changes to global governance and the financial system. source

...do you really not understand what's happening around you?

Yeah, I see a bunch of people pushing for more tax and more government. Did you miss that part?

I am all for ending corporate wellfare and crony-capitalism. I am not for more tax and government. Do YOU see what is happening?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by BadNinja68
No one said Global Government except you.

Is that so? You must have missed all of this:

From the London Occupy Wall Street:

"We're staying forever," insists Bryn Phillips. "We're staying until the rector says we have to go, and he says we can stay, so we're staying until our demands are met."

Asked what those demands are, Phillips reels off a list which veers from the idealistic to the jokey, which his friend, artist and fellow protester Laura May, says "sounds like a Christmas wish list" -- and which suggests the campers may be here until well into the new year.

"We're a solidarity movement. We want to replace the G7 with the G-seven-billion, we want a global democracy: Government by the people, for the people, not by governments acting for the big banks," he says. source

More (from a pro-Occupy site):

Young Moroccan militants came to demonstrate against capitalism and for a global democracy. source

Even more:

One protester spoke about a global democracy statement, which has circulated to marches around the world. The New York assembly will take a vote as early as tomorrow if they endorse the statement, which calls for drastic changes to global governance and the financial system. source

...do you really not understand what's happening around you?

Yeah, I see a bunch of people pushing for more tax and more government. Did you miss that part?

I am all for ending corporate wellfare and crony-capitalism. I am not for more tax and government. Do YOU see what is happening?

I repeat because you obviously did not or could not read and comprehend my post:
No one said "global government" except you.

They said and I quite from your own posts " Global Democracy". These are two separate terms with different meanings.

Im sorry, but if you cannot comprehend the words you are quoting and posting I really don't know how to have an intelligent conversation with you.
If English is not your first language then I appologize for not understanding how you interpret my posts.
If it is, then.. I dunno what else to say.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
'Drastic changes to GLOBAL governance'? Really? Does it need to be clearer?

today we demand replacing the G8 with the whole of humanity, the G7,000,000,000.

Loud and clear! I support the notion of replacing the G8 or the G7 or whatever with the whole humanity - the G 7 billion.

reply to post by ColCurious

Public education can never be a right. Rights cannot exist which require the actions of others to accommodate them. For example:

• No one has to assist you to practice your right to Freedom of Speech. You can speak without assistance.
  
• No one has to assist you for you to exercise a right to Freedom of Religion. You can worship who/what you want in the way you want all by yourself.
  
• No one has to assist you in exercising the right to bear arms. That right does not mean you have the right to receive free arms.
  
• No one is needed to help you exercise your right to free assembly. You and whoever decides to assemble with you are all that is required.

In some sense you already have the right to a free education. What you do not have the right to is to force someone else to teach you without a requirement you compensate them for their time. That would be slavery. But you can educate yourself as much as you want, in whatever field you want to learn.

That said, I strongly support public assistance in education through at least the Bachelor degree. We are making progress in that area as compared with how things were 25 years ago... back then I was forced to drop out because there was no assistance and I had to leave the area in search of work. Today, a state program is allowing me to get an AAS in Computer Information Systems, and the Federal Pell Grant is allowing me to eat while I attend school. We do need more work in that area, but the bottom line is that almost anyone in the US can attend college if they want it bad enough.

TheRedneck

reply to post by BadNinja68

In a Democracy, you do not elect LEADERS.. you elect REPRESENTATIVES OF THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

Technically, that is a representative democracy, not a true democracy. A true democracy would require that everyone on the planet vote on every decision made. Not a very practical idea. Also, those in a true democracy have no rights: everyone is at the mercy of the majority. A republic can have specified rights assigned to the people.

Also technically, the USA already is a representative democratic republic.

The problem we have lies not with the stated method of government, but with the extent to which the American populous has allowed personal self-interests and popularity override their common sense in choosing leaders (which are the same as representatives in this governmental form). There is no way to establish any government which is both sensitive to the needs of its citizenry and at the same time independent of the wishes of the people. When the wishes of the people become self-serving, the government becomes self-serving. And we have been self-serving for quite some time now.

We have the correct governmental form; we simply need to force it back into the role it was conceived for instad of letting it ignore national issues while trying to correct local ones.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

Well, the right to education already is a Human Right according to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights...

Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

its also in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU:

Article 14

1. Everyone has the right to education and to have access to vocational and continuing training.

2. This right includes the possibility to receive free compulsory education.

Since my country explicitly accepts and respects the human rights in the preamble of our constitution, all German Citizens have the right to education too.

However, the right to education is not easy to apply, because the living conditions of people can strongly affect their capability of practising said right.
I had to work 2 jobs during my apprenticeship to make a living and today I'm grateful for that experience, because it made me who I am... but I can only imagine how hard this would be for, let's say a single mom in Madrid.

To really assure a fundamental right of eductation, a high degree of the standard of living and quality of life would have to be guaranteed... and this is very unlikely.

Besides, a lot of countries around the world still don't respect human rights at all.

There is a part of me that wants to hit that little red "-" at the end of forum so I don't have to see it anymore. Not because I have nothing to say, but because I've said it all before.

Until this thread.

Global democracy? Really? I'd really like the OWS proponents to explain how that would dovetail with the US Constitution.

Global democracy? Global currency?

Hell. We can't even decide on a global religion, global language, global anything!

To the OWS folks, I present a challenge. Before you try and implement a global democracy, how about starting a little smaller.
Global lunch meat.

You get everyone on the planet to agree on that, and you might stand a chance at bigger things.