OWS: It's not anti-capitalism, it's anti-greed

I post this for clarity, and I do not speak for the movement, but will recount one thing I've witnessed in Occupy Boston. For OWS, taking the tact of ant-capitalism is useless and it is a nebulous approach when trying to achieve an end goal. The message needs to focused-in better to anti-greed.

This is a young movement that purposely has no leaders and embraces each message with a focus on a few higher level points that all participants can agree on. Such as anti-greed, no corporate money in politics (lobbyists), job creation, and an end to the two party political system.

The Tea Party and OWS are different but with similarities. They are different because the Tea Party is a political party, whereas OWS is a movement. You can support OWS if you're a Tea Party member, and if you're an OWS participant you can support the Tea Party on one point, which is breaking up the two party system. Similarities arise between the movements in the context that each is "grass roots" (an overused BS term) and each seeks to protect and re-apply the US constitution. I'm pretty sure that's where it ends.

Back to greed:

Greed is an excessive desire to possess wealth, goods, or abstract things of value with the intention to keep it for one's self. Greed is inappropriate expectation. However, greed is applied to a very excessive or rapacious desire and pursuit of wealth, status, and power.

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

It has been shown that global banking operations have shifted money made in the US/Europe to offshore tax free havens (or lesser tax) so that the wealth that was created in the US does not stay in the US, it's like pulling out the drain on the economy. So now our economy is in the gutter and job creation is stalling.

Secondly, many of these Fortune 100 companies are hoarding their money to bolster their bottom lines, where instead they should reinvest the wealth into the economy.

It get stickier here, but with billionaires it would have to be a case by case basis - as some of these folks are massive jobs creators and excellent for the economy. Other though are private individuals who hoard their wealth. And while you say, "they made the money they can do whatever they want with it including saving it," the difference at that level of wealth the money saved/hoarded is locking out parts of the population who need it now, during this bad economical time. Granted it's their money, so it gets hairy here, but the thinking is they should do more to help by creating jobs, or starting industries for job creation. Hope that helps.

Sourcing myself there so I don't retype that: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Anyways, I'm not looking for a fight or trying to be a spokesman, but I think it's important to refine the messaging from anti-capitalism to anti-greed as it's more succinct to what the real issue is. Lastly, for those who vehemently dislike OWS, this should be a point of clarity.

ETA: A unifying point on the greed perspective is that Christianity, Islam and Judaism all say it's bad, a deadly sin even. Social conservatives and the religious minded can find an voice in this portion of OWS.

reply to post by Jason88
Nice, but not true. I've had debates here, on ATS, where the OWS proponents called for an end to capitalism.

Period.

You may not think so, but there are countless ppeople at these events, and here on ATS, who espouse the end of capitalism.

What we have here in this country is what they call "capitalism" where it's true face is that little nasty word "socialism" People are continually redefining the wealth of the private individual or corporations.

The true face of capitalism is people make money they earn money and that money continually changes hands for services or products delivered.

There is nothing wrong with capitalism it is the only economic model in existence that has propelled mankind to an era never seen before.

The problem isn't capitalism it is the people's greed their want's that far exceed the grasp of their wallet's and people denounce capitalism when they have no clue what it means what it truly is.

It is darwinism the strong succeed the weak perish enter that other ism that has and is leading to all this nation and the world's problems.

Greed= self interest. If OWS is anti-greed, OWS is anti-reality.

Maybe they should take a more practical approach. Its certainly true that the current system and the way its been going for the last 30 years is screwed up (which most consumer driven young adults have been fine with until they became the ones who had to deal with it instead of just 3rd world citizens, but I digress). So, instead of whining and embracing left wing idiocy, take a long look at the real mechanisms that allow the self interest of the ultra rich to supercede that of main street. Bloated, centralized government is the sole way for these elites to protect the status quo. Even the most moderate answers I've heard from pro-OWS types are answers that only exacerbate the problem.

Regulations will not work. Legislation will not work. Empowering angry mobs will not only not work, but will completely backfire no matter what direction it takes.

I do not support OWS because it is a means to further slavery. And before someone tells me I don't understand it, I certainly do. There is nothing unique about this movement. We've seen many many variations of this scene and it never has and never will work out for the common good.

They say you can't use the political system for change because Wall Street 'owns" the politicians. The 2nd part of the statement is certainly true, but the first is hogwash. The Constitution lays the perfect framework for restoring the Republic (if that's in fact what OWS is trying to do). No one is stopping people from voting for the many 3rd party candidates that appear on the ballot. The problem is that the people have become complacent and are too damn lazy to even look up information on any of those candidates much less become involved themselves. So what's the answer? Blame rich people for all of our problems.

If the American people cannot accept responsibility for their own freedom, they frankly don't deserve it. If anything good comes from this movement, it may wake people up.

If you want change, go vote for Paul or Kucinich, or the guy you never heard of because you were too busy playing on the internet (I'm speaking in general, not directing at you personally OP). Crying for handouts and saying that a necessary biological principle like self interest is evil will help no one. Greed is going nowhere. And the ones who claim to be against it are the ones who want things. Makes you wonder.

reply to post by beezzer


Agree. I support parts of OWS and have slowly seen a refining of the message because folks do not understand capitalism, it's the greed they're really mad about. A unifying point on the greed perspective is Christianity, Islam and Judaism all say it's bad, a deadly sin even. Social conservatives can find an outlet in this portion of OWS.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Jason88

 

Nice, but not true. I've had debates here, on ATS, where the OWS proponents called for an end to capitalism.

Period.

You may not think so, but there are countless people at these events, and here on ATS, who espouse the end of capitalism.

The more and more I see and read, the more obvious it becomes to me that many well intentioned advocates for "the movement" are not paying attention to OWS and what its pushing and have not taken the time to stand back and see it for what it is. Extremely anti-American, extremely anti-capitalist. Unfortunately, "movements" count on folks like this. Anger and frustration are the easiest tools to use to manipulate someone into working for your personal or group interests. As old as time.

reply to post by neo96

It is darwinism the strong succeed the weak perish enter that other ism that has and is leading to all this nation and the world's problems.

The "survival of the fittest" mentality that you reference is not Darwinism, it is Social Darwinism, a 19th Century ideology tha a.) Darwin himself never identified with and b.) was never anything more than the Elite of the era making up BS justifications as for why they had the right to treat the other 99% of humanity like animals and possessions. Which is why the ideology crushed by the Progressive Era.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Jason88

 

Nice, but not true. I've had debates here, on ATS, where the OWS proponents called for an end to capitalism.

Period.

You may not think so, but there are countless ppeople at these events, and here on ATS, who espouse the end of capitalism.

Personally, I wish to call an end to the concept of debt/compensation for any services rendered by anybody anywhere.

99% of us are willing to forgive debt. 1% is not.

Whatever the true stat, it's not a 50-50 down the middle arrangement by far.

reply to post by madhatr137


Yeah ok but the ism where everyone is a winner ain't working out so well.

Originally posted by madhatr137
reply to post by neo96

 

It is darwinism the strong succeed the weak perish enter that other ism that has and is leading to all this nation and the world's problems.

The "survival of the fittest" mentality that you reference is not Darwinism, it is Social Darwinism, a 19th Century ideology tha a.) Darwin himself never identified with and b.) was never anything more than the Elite of the era making up BS justifications as for why they had the right to treat the other 99% of humanity like animals and possessions. Which is why the ideology crushed by the Progressive Era.

Progressives were among the biggest proponents of eugenics. I wouldn't say they crushed social darwinism because it seems to me they were among its biggest advocates. It became quite gauche after all those Jews got torched, though.
That is a very 21st centur,y OWS slanted reading of history you have going on there, what with the "99%" reference and all.
Eugenics was part of the whole "central management of society" utopia that progressives longed for. Many progressives funded and supported sterilization of undesirables. I know that doesn't seem very "progressive" by our standards, but, alas, tis true.

reply to post by beezzer


I actually have to agree with this an in opposititon to the OP as it has been my impression from the majority of the protestors and here on ATS that the majority want to see Capitilism die and basically birth Socialism in America.

I am strongly opposed to the idea of everyone having the same amount of everything. That goes against everything this country stands for and was built on. No matter where you see it Socialism has always failed miserably, and it will continue to do so as it does not work.

reply to post by Jason88


If it is indeed anti greed then it is in effect socialist. Because it is socialist in nature, it is pro greed. There is no socialism without greed, except the greed has been transfered from the private sector to the government and other elitests. Socialism is for everyone but the socialist. Why are those that are always in power in socialist countries filthy rich? How did they get that way? Why would they want to be that rich? Why do they need or want so much power and control? The answer to all of the above questions is because they are GREEDY.

Maybe you should have a talk with those greedy union members.

Protesting and getting paid, not working and getting paid.

Paid to protest.

Protesting over not getting their fair share. Which exceeds the heavens above.

While everyday americans struggle to make ends meet.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


There is no doubt that it is socialism that a good majority of the OWS' group is calling for. Whenever you have people calling for everyone to be equal socialism has just reared it's ugly head. I have said it before and I will say it again read Naked Empire by Terry Goodkind it will give you a whole new perspective on the ideology of everyone being equal. No matter what you do there will always be someone who has a bit more then someone else. Someone who is a bit more well read, someone that grows there own food (has a bit more), someone who improves his own home (has a bit more). It just doesn't work.

There is no practical working application of Socialism anywhere in the world. Communism is just the nastier version of Socialism. The true concept of Socialism is great and perfect, but it is not realistic and will never work. It has been proven time and time again that it will not work. No matter how much you might like it too.

reply to post by Phantom28804

The quotation "All men are created equal" has been called an "immortal declaration", and "perhaps" the single phrase of the United States Revolutionary period with the greatest "continuing importance". Thomas Jefferson first used the phrase in the Declaration of Independence as a rebuttal to the going political theory of the day: the Divine Right of Kings. It was thereafter quoted or incorporated into speeches by a wide array of substantial figures in American political and social life in the United States. The final form of the phrase was sylized by Benjamin Franklin.

DAMN SOCIALISTS!

Originally posted by loveguy

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Jason88

 

Nice, but not true. I've had debates here, on ATS, where the OWS proponents called for an end to capitalism.

Period.

You may not think so, but there are countless ppeople at these events, and here on ATS, who espouse the end of capitalism.

Personally, I wish to call an end to the concept of debt/compensation for any services rendered by anybody anywhere.

99% of us are willing to forgive debt. 1% is not.

Whatever the true stat, it's not a 50-50 down the middle arrangement by far.

So an end to the free market. Capitalism.

This is what I'm talking about! This is what I can never support.

reply to post by beezzer


If anyone takes a look at beezers posting history... Its pretty clear what is supported.

I try desperately to still think this movement is for something tangible, something with teeth. but with each passing day it does appear to get more like a phish concert. if we all can start with baby steps, agree on something that appeals to the actual 99% and stick with it, then there is hope. maybe the fed would be a good place to start, then washington and wallstreet.

how the hell you gonna sway wallstreet when some of the people there are marching for gay rights, some for communism, some for 9/11 truth(er), and etc.. etc... the bigshots have nothing to fear with such a disheveled group.

reply to post by thehoneycomb


I have always had an issue with Unions as I do not think they are fair to anyone. I am definitely one of those that are struggling to keep my head above the water along with my family, and I have been going with not even a cost of living increase for the last 3 yrs, yet the same government I work for just gave a signifigant increase to the temp service employees that we use from time to time that are actually getting paid more money then I make. Now not all that money goes to the employee but they are getting paid by us 16.00 an hour minimum to make sure the employee recieves a fair living wage. Ironic isn't it?

reply to post by Phantom28804


Change to a temp service and take the lack of benefits with it?