buddhism the logical choice

Originally posted by troubleshooter
"[...] If true, this would explain numerous similarities between the teachings of Jesus (AD 30) and Buddha (525 BC). Perhaps each was significantly influenced by a mutual predecessor, Solomon (950 BC)?"

They only have vaguely similar philosophies if you pick and choose from the range of teachings. But you can do that with just about anybody if you try hard enough. As far as the specifics are concerned, they're way off.

Originally posted by rom12345
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Of all religions, the Christian should of course inspire the most tolerance, but until now Christians have been the most intolerant of all men.

Was there anyting intollerant about my post?

You know the true Christian with understanding not only embraces and accepts all, but is a true Bodhisatva who does not seek escape. Then again, I'm not your usual run of the mill Christian either.

I get what you're saying, and I loath that aspect of what "Churchianity" has done with the wisdom teachings and model of Jesus Christ, it's a crying shame, and I'm willing to cry about it, for real.

On behalf of Jesus Christ, I am so very sorry for the intollerance of my "brethren", please forgive them for they simply did not know what they were doing.

Church doctrine, which hijacked and STOLE Christ's authority, to "rule the world", is in large part to blame, but at some point we must stand up and take responsibility.

Christianity is an all-INclusive and loving invitation nothing more, and it can't be more than that or it undermines it's own spirit of truth and love.

Wait until you hear about what I think the myth of the "Three Wise Men" really points to, as an allegory..

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Amen NewAgeMan! I actually used to practice Buddhism (unsuccessfully) after growing up in a churchy household. One day I started reading without the oversight of religious authority and finally learned the truth about the church. The Pharisees and Saducees are still at work in the modern Christian church today preaching a different message and hiding the truth. Grace is the Truth that brings Faith!

reply to post by overseer1136

I have a real knack for getting the truth out about Christianity, and I am giving serious consideration to going back to school to become a minister, and they won't be able to brainwash me either.

If I'm truly successful in that, and it's never too late (I'm 44), my hope would be to one day be shot dead as a heretic!

Yup budhism is a philosophy, it is an empirical science of the mind, it teaches the human kind to be happy and avoid suffering.
It is liberating, it wants to free man from the wheel of karma and wrong doing.

reply to post by Manula


With Buddha we have a self realized being finding the path to the release from all suffering, and in Jesus, the same one taking it all on for the sake of love. They are two sides of the same coin. imho (don't shoot the messenger!)

reply to post by NewAgeMan


New age man, have you ever given real attention to budhism?
Its really liberating, its almost the perfect manual to be happy and avoid suffering while helping other do the same.
Iam not saying Christianity isn't, but some concepts like detachment and aversion, the various types of meditation, compassion are soooo good and resonate so much... Give it a try.
Of course Jesus is the master of compassion but really, give it a try

NAM's Three Wise Men and the Star of Bethlehem theory:

Buddha's enlightenment: After he'd "given up" and then on a whim, feeling the vibe, he sat again and reportedly saw the morning star on the horizon, presumably Venus.

Around that time, or shortly thereafter, there evolved three "flavors" of Buddhism eminating from three Oriental guys, Buddha, Lao Tzu, and Confucius. This was approx 500 years BC (and no one questions THEIR existence as historical figures).

At the "birth" of Christ (annointing) aka God-consciousness, we have the Eastern Star, and three wise men, from the Orient, with their special gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh (prescious).

Now, consider this. What if the myth was an allegory for Jesus of Nazareth's appropriation of these teachings, and their integration with his Jewish Mystical Tradition? With his final annointing occuring at the beginning of his ministry involving his initation by John the Baptist (Elijah, reincarnated), an Essene and the counsin of Jesus. Note: Baptism itself has deep allegorical roots in terms of the unconscious and the making of the unconscious, conscious via a spiritual rebirth.

To this day the Church has a day of the 12 days of Christmas set aside in celebration of the Three Wise Men called, get this "Epiphany Sunday"!

I call this "star of enlightenment" the star of isolate consciousness (one with everything).

Thus, when we take this "star of enlightenment", and frame it within the context of what I call the "relativity of human being" as love, what do we get but a true understanding of Christianity and what it represents, which is very Buddhist in nature, yet at the same time, one which recognizes the power of Grace as God's love in action, made manifest, creating a space for the unconditional acceptance of the individual person, as they are (unconditional love), while inviting them to participate in a co-creative process of love and forgiveness in relation to their fellow man, and ultimately to God as the nothing/everything already always now and forever.

You see, the reason we cannot be forgiven unless and until we forgive, is because all is one, in the same way that to love neighbor as self (see Parable of the Good Sameritan) is NO LESS IMPORTANT than loving God above all, since we all share the same unconditioned ground of all being and becoming..

In my mind and view, Christianity, as it is largely understood in "Christendom" is incomplete without an understanding of Buddism, and likewise Buddhism is incomplete without Christianity, which completes it in terms of the enjoyments and realities of what it really means to be a human person with character (not a not nothing only) and in terms of the notion that we cannot engineer our own salvation on our own steam or by our own power and resources alone, no matter how long we might meditate or how big of a nothing-everything we can become.

Does this make sense to anyone?

And I will give him the morning star.
~ Revelation 2:28 KJV

Originally posted by Darkblade71
I am not any religion myself, however Buddhism seems to mirror much of my own thinking.


I like it!

Thanks for your liking! Buddhism is not even really considered a religion per se since there is no deity or even messiah or prophet to worship, it is teachings that can be independently verified and as such more of a philosophy than a religion. All of life consists of suffering, and dexire is the fuel which causes suffering to burn like a fire. When desire is quelled the fuel is removed and the fire of suffering is extinguished, this state is called nirvana.

Originally posted by pexx421
i definitely agree. Buddhism, taoism, hinduism, all eschew dogma in favor of personal enlightenment. They are the path to self actualization, and as you say, use conscious expansion and cultivation of wisdom, compassion, and humanity, in order to help us grow to be the best people we can be. They embrace all facets of humanity instead of forcing us to close of or deny sides of ourselves, and help us instead learn to control our reactions to those impulses. All other religions, mainstream wise, focus on promising material provision, and neglect compassion and wisdom.

Interestingly though, while the mainstream forms of religions focus on control and indoctrination, and seem to be locked into war with each other....each of those religions also has a mystical sect, for jews the qabbala, for christians the gnostics, and for islam the dervishes or sufis, which all agree with each other, and which also all very closely resemble taoist, buddhist and hindu practice and belief.

Well said and what you say is true. What I will add is that buddhism leads to beinga better person, that is one of the material gains of buddhism, but itis also about ending the cycle of suffering through analysis of the impermanence of material objects which bind us to samsara, only when we break attachment to the aggregates can we prevent suffering from coming to be...whenthis arises, that comes to be, when this issubjugated, that is subjugated, when desire for material objects is subjugated so to is suffering.

reply to post by filosophia


Wait, assuming both are true, being stuck in a never ending cycle of karmic debt suffering and rebirth where I have to live through multiple lives of suffering, perhaps for eternity, to pay off some karmic debt that I owe, that I ALSO keep accumulating more of as I go, is somehow more logical than just asking Jesus to save me?

Being reborn due to karma is like trying to pay off a credit card with another credit card. Pay off your karma of the past life with a new life, but then in that life you just get more karma. It's a never ending debt cycle. It's like the religion of the Federal Reserve or something.

Assuming both religions could be true, let's ask a simple question. Which works more often for more people? How many people have gotten "out" of the debt cycle and reached Nirvana after one life? 1? 2?

If Christianity is true, how many will be saved and go to the after life after 1 life of suffering? Well the answer is anyone that's been saved by Jesus. We're talking billions of people. In Christianity all you have to do is ask Jesus to be your savior. We're talking about a MULTIPLE BILLION to 1 success ratio here. I'll take my chances with Jesus. Sorry yo.

I don't wanna try to pay off a never ending credit card of debt that I know I can't pay. Someone else has already paid it for me.

Unless you don't believe in that kind of thing, but if that's the case, why believe any religion at all? Just work on self education and stop worrying about all that.

This threads conversational to and fro reminds me of toddlers playing in a sandbox. beautiful & amazing how little we seem to know when we step back and actually observe. and so exciting to know that so much more knowledge, ideas and concepts await us.

☮&♥

I don't know why the thought of reincarnation is such a horrible thing to some people. I mean life is awesome!! Even when it sucks!! If I could do it over again, I would, I will!!

I guess it is all in how one looks at it.

Originally posted by tinfoilman
reply to post by filosophia

 

Wait, assuming both are true, being stuck in a never ending cycle of karmic debt suffering and rebirth where I have to live through multiple lives of suffering, perhaps for eternity, to pay off some karmic debt that I owe, that I ALSO keep accumulating more of as I go, is somehow more logical than just asking Jesus to save me?

The karmic paradox, that is interesting. Add to that the dilemma of being trapped in a subjective experience of a reality we can no nothing about in the midst of suffering all around us - if we do NOT choose to become a willing Bodhisatva, then we're screwed, unless we can somehow zero ourselves out in the nothing of everything through an effort to achieve enlightenment, by dissolving the ego, and egoic attachments, and all desire. Problem is, first of all, it's rather challenging, if not almost impossible to achieve in one lifetime, the objective to become a person without desire or any attachment to an outcome (what ought to be), and secondly, isn't our desire, our passion, our yearning to do more, be more, even have more (judiciously), both for our own sake and that of others, the very thing which makes us most human? It just seems rather selfish to me, to want to become one with everything, unless I can bring everyone else along for the ride! But I'm not you and you are not me, and that's good, that splendid unity in variety, and the recognition of each one's own spiritual journey, whether in this life or any other. I'm glad I'm me and that you are you, and that there is something and not nothing. What fun would it be to simply vanish from the scene, never to return! I can let God be God and keep on keeping on, it's fun that way, and gives me something to be grateful for.

And if my theory is true, about the Three Wise Men from the Orient contributing to the birth of Christ, as an ongoing, past, present and future hope, and final revelation, than there are "no worries" as they say, because if that's the case, then indeed "our liberation is God's compulsion" (C.S. Lewis) from all angles, and from all perspectives, without at the same time doing anything whatsoever to undermine or detract from the wholeness and integrity of the unique personhood of each individual journeyor.

My only concern about Buddhism, without Christianity as a "bracketing" or as a type of cosmic shelter for the human being (space of unconditional love and acceptance of the self as we are, and surely will become), is that people might "zero themselves out" and lose their desire, their intense passion, to love and to share and to make the world a better place for one and all, and to be fully self expressed as they are, everything integrated, with nothing discarded, happy and joyfilled right now, already in eternity.

Christianity however, without the integration of Buddhism, by making of Jesus an externalized God of worship, is equally absurd and ridiculous, since he came and did so that we might have real life (and light of awareness) to the full even to overflowing, not to subjugate, nor provide a morality lecture (re-grafting us back onto the duality of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), but instead to create the very space of unconditional love and acceptance by which we can enter right into eternal life, right now!

Taken together, what we have is the best of both worlds, whereby you can be you yourself now, with desire (love), AND by the sheer magnitude of your love further magnified through the love of Christ (Buddha + brotherhood of man), come into the realization of eternal life and freedom (love relationship with God as spirit), while at the same time remotivating yourself in terms of all your human relations, starting with your own relationship with, and reintegration of, yourself, as you are, in self acceptance! Moving forward, whole and complete, and perfect as we are (and if need be healed and made whole by a radical, transformative forgiveness capable of wiping the tears from the eyes), provided we then learn to forgive as we are forgiven, and love as we are loved - then by God there it is!

It's the opportunity of a lifetime, and one which contends directly with the world as we find it, and we are then ready to set to work plowing the field immediately, already in eternity, enjoying the fruits of the spiritual life, happy, and at home, without any need of escape, or to burn away all our desire so as to release from all suffering, while there's still much suffering in the world. It's a real dilema, for both parties. The Christian on the one hand never gets into heaven (there's no time like the present) by thinking the reward can only come in the afterlife (absurd) and the Buddhist never resolves or escapes the karmic wheel, unless he "chooses" to become a Bodhisatva, but Bodhisatvahood cannot be chosen freely and for fun and enjoyment under such circumstances! Equally absurd.

I am not willing to depart to anywhere other than right here if I can help it, until the son of man comes not just for and through me, but for and through everyone, until we all "grok" it most fully, and can freely access the food and water which satiates desire in the most appropriate and loving way.

So I guess I'm saying that it's selish to want to be nothing/everything and then vanish!

Stick around, you aint seen noth'n yet, surely! Don't go, and don't you dare zero yourself out and release from all desire, it's inhuman.

So this is why if I want to medidate or contemplate, I prefer the space of Christianity and Buddhism combined. Maybe I'll even get the star of enlightenment and get to enjoy the best of all worlds?!

I presume that Buddha wasn't trying to get to another world, just to be released from this hellhole!

There's a lot of humor in this apparent paradox and in the paradox, resolved. I hope I'm not the only one who sees it.

But talk about "Buddhism is better than Christianity"! Or vice versa! That's also totally absurd and utter nonsense, unless by Christianity you aren't thinking Christian mysticism, but the stained glass windows of "Churchianity".

Love,

NAM

Originally posted by Manula
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

New age man, have you ever given real attention to budhism?
Its really liberating, its almost the perfect manual to be happy and avoid suffering while helping other do the same.
Iam not saying Christianity isn't, but some concepts like detachment and aversion, the various types of meditation, compassion are soooo good and resonate so much... Give it a try.
Of course Jesus is the master of compassion but really, give it a try

Yes, I already have, and have attended at least one workshop and I've read some books.

I've even gotten to the space of nothing and absolute uncertainty. It is as they say "nothing special" and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense.

But since we cannot recapture a past spiritual experience, nor chase one by trying to do anything at all, my thinking is "what now"? For me, the only thing that motivates or inspires in the space of nothing, is love, and there I meet Jesus and his love, which perhaps frighteningly, or heretically, is my own true self as I am in his love, where it's perhaps kind of hard to distingish between the two, although I do think that's the whole object or the goal of Christianity to begin with, not to keep us mired in sin and sorrow and suffering, but to restore us to humor.

Best, I think, to consider that the two compliment each other, and might even operate as a type of alchemical reaction, for the birth of Christ in the world, like some sort of Buddha of human relations.

But I can't "do" Buddhism, particularly not for myself!

It's FUNNY!

I do get "zen".

But it get's even funnier if you add in Christian mysticism. For me that just keeps the whole thing rolling along into eternity, already, and it's very amuzing. I don't even care if I die! It doesn't matter anymore. And there it is, the opportunity for authentic Bodhisatvahood, for all the right reasons, and therein I am released from attachment, and can now plow back in, and enter the fray with my whole being. This represents an authentic theological framework, this Buddhism and Christianity combined deal. Cool!

Originally posted by Th0r
This threads conversational to and fro reminds me of toddlers playing in a sandbox. beautiful & amazing how little we seem to know when we step back and actually observe. and so exciting to know that so much more knowledge, ideas and concepts await us.

☮&♥

Yeah I've always been a little wary of peope who say "my religion is better than yours". In fact any time the word religion comes into play i like to play it cautiously. Sure your religion is best.....for you. But not necessarily for others. And now this thread has disintegrated into some Christian Mysticism vs. Buddhism stand off. Hence my issues with religion in the first place.

Why don't you just take a ruler behind the change rooms, flop it all out and...... but anyway.

There are different belief systems for a reason. Different things work for different people. If size really does matter then Christianity is a clear winner. But then again there's far more non-Christians than Christians in this world. And I'd hazard a guess there's far more non-practising 'insert religion here' than there are who take it even remotely seriously. When you break most religions down into there fundamental teachings they are pretty much the same.

But the path that works for me will probably not work for you. If you really believe there's something deeper to this life then go study many belief systems. But just because Jesus has touched you in that special place or you've managed to completely let go of your ego and you've been sitting in a cave somewhere for the past 13 years don't assume that that is my path.

Sure, give me your story, for I am interested, that is why I'm here. I may well try out a few things and see what works for me. But when you find yourself facing off against each other then there's definately something wrong.

Ultimately there will be only one Truth. And my guess is its 'none of the above'. But we only get the briefest of glimpses in moments of true clarity and the rest we have to fill in with our own interpretation. If someone elses interpretation works for you that's great, go join a religion and put your feet up. I personally like to find out my own truths. Who better to figure out why I'm here than me?

But in the end it doesn't really matter for we have many many life times to work it all out. So why don't you all put down your rosary beads and your prayer wheels and we'll all just go down to the pub and grab a beer (unless of course your Muslim )

thats what i used to think.

till the first time i took hallucinogens and saw Ganesha.

just sitting there... everywhere... in everything... staring at me.

then i realized i was a hindu... or, i had been a hindu. i dont remember any past lives, but ive been an old man since the day i was born, i just "know" things to be certain ways. and all those years in baptist and pentecostal churches i "knew" things didnt sound right. and buddhism sounded like it made a lot more sense.. but not quite.

i had no idea what hindus were, all i knew was Apu from the simpsons, so i assumed it was just some silly religion with lots of funny Gods.


but then when you suddenly find yourself looking at "that Indian God with the elephant trunk!" in the eye for a few hours.. you start to take it a bit more seriously.


lol, the first thought i had was... "its like looking in a mirror"

i think maybe thats part of why i was born all the way over here on the other side of the planet, raised with the complete opposite religion, and taking every other religion seriously while thinking my own secret one was a joke.
like a test of faith.
it still stuck with me though.. kinda scary.
though i wouldnt call myself hindu NOW.

i think the lesson was about "religion"... religion is not faith. real faith requires real evidence.. its just that most people dont know what is "real".

life and death.. lol.. whatever.

reply to post by filosophia

Why is buddhism the logical choice

It is idle to believe that there can be religion without faith.

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reply to post by spacekc929

I guess Buddhism would make the most sense if you buy into the fact that everything we know can be observed and experienced. Personally, I do not believe that everything is able to be empirically known.

Buddhism does not hold that everything known can be observed and experienced by everybody. It presupposes various degrees of spiritual development (‘freedom from karma’); beings of relatively advanced karmic development perceive and understand more than groundlings. Full awareness equates to enlightenment, which only Buddhas experience; only a Buddha can observe and understand all things.

But your demurral raises a more important point. Buddhism, like all religions, insists upon faith in its tenets and processes of salvation. More saliently, it demands faith in the efficacy of certain rituals and observances, again just like any other religion.

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reply to post by rom12345

Originally posted by Blue Shift
I've never seen where reincarnation has been proven, and therefore any system of beliefs with that as a cornerstone is horribly flawed in my book.

Originally posted by rom12345
Since when did belief need proof.

Good point. Buddhism is a religion, demanding faith – not, as Westerners often comment, some kind of ‘philosophy’

Originally posted by Blue Shift
Another thing that really bugs me about Buddhism is how it has developed into a system of pretty rigid symbols and prayers and so on. I'm also surprised at how many Buddhists are essentially violent and aggressive when it comes to defending their belief system.

Originally posted by rom12345
Totaly untrue.

I live in a country where the majority of people, including some of my relatives, are Buddhists. Blue Shift is correct. I have watched people at temple, offering images, circumnavigating stupas, chanting and listening to chanting monks. It is all very ritualistic and quite rigid. The chanting is in Pali, a dead language, which the listeners do not understand a word of. Often the monks, too, are just mouthing sounds that have no meaning to them. If this isn’t empty, rigid ritual, what is? And these people are Theravadin; for real ritual and formula, check out some of the Mahayana schools, such as Pure Land. They are pure superstition and ritual, nothing else.

As for violence and aggression, they have been closely associated with Buddhism for two thousand years or more. Read up on the history, both ancient and modern, of such places as Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Sri Lanka and Thailand. Buddhists are just as prone to sectarian violence as members of any other faith.

No religion in the world is untainted by hatred and violence. Certainly not Buddhism.

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reply to post by ManjushriPrajna

But a more beneficial reincarnation is not the goal of Buddhism, nor has it ever been.

I am afraid you are wrong. The goal of all lay Theravadin is to be reborn in more propitious circumstances. It was for this purpose that the Buddha was originally prevailed upon to institute a rule for laypersons.

The attainment of bodhi is only possible for a bikkhu or bikkhuni.

I am aware that the teaching in some Mahayana schools differs from this.

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reply to post by Manula

Yup budhism is a philosophy, it is an empirical science of the mind...

I see you read the brochure. This is how Buddhism was packaged for Westerners by people like Henry Steel Olcott, Walpola Rahula and others. It has nothing at all to do with the regular practice of hundreds of millions of Buddhists, for whom Buddhism is a faith like any other, complete with prayers, petitions, offerings (even, in some sects, sacrifices), rites, heavens, hells and the rest of the common stock of human belief. Yes, there has always been a powerful intellectual and philosophical strain in Buddhism, reflected in the Abidhamma Pitaka and the writings of some Mahayanist schools. But that is a minority interest, confined to intellectual, meditative bikkhus who are the Buddhist equivalent of theologians and mystics in other faiths. Most Buddhists just go through the rituals and worship Buddha like a god.

reply to post by SirMike


Sounds like you need to move out of home.

I like Hinduism because the Gods fly around in UFO's and use massive nuclear weapons to destroy cities. Funny thing is the the truth that may be underlying in those writings.

I like Buddhism too. Supposedly Jesus, after his resurrection, went to India and lived there with his wife and had some children.

Was Jesus a Buddhist Monk?
youtu.be...

This is a facinating documentary about Jesus being chosen by monks (three wise men from the orient) as a child. He later went to Kashmir to be a monk and later returned to Jerusalem to spread the message. After his resurection/resuscitation he returned to Kashmir.