Can there be civility without spirituality? (A Religious Troll Thread, LOL)

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Don’t get all sawed off yet...

I am so "sawed off" at you right now!

I do not intend the use of “religion” to mean one of the worlds dominant religions such as Christianity or Buddhism. I mean it in the manner that the individual believes in something supernatural and beyond the physical realm. I don’t want to be caught up in semantics.

If you don't want words to be a problem, why not just use the right word? Spirituality? To be perfectly honest with you, you'll ruffle a LOT fewer feathers. If you weren't my friend, I probably wouldn't be answering here, But I'll go with whatever word you want to use for now. I'm easy. So they say...

I do not believe a god must be named and personified to be a god.

Please define "god" (just so we don't get caught up in semantics. Especially let me know if god is part of me or I am part of god. Is god a separate thing from me? Is it my spirit or soul? Is it a 'thing'? Does it have power? Intelligence? A will? Is it aware of us? Can we communicate with it? Does it have its own awareness?

But, it leaves the question of what to call someone completely without spirituality?

I would ask them. Do you call yourself an atheist or what? And if he feels he KNOWS there is no God, I would call him a gnostic atheist. There are gnostic theists, too. They KNOW there's a God. (I personally don't buy any gnostic positions because we cannot know at this time.)

So, can a Gnostic Atheist behave using a purely logical decision making paradigm and not live as a Sociopath? If so, HOW? And WHY?

You speak as though someone without spirituality is surely an animal. Yes, we are all animals, but humans are a distinct species with 'humanity' or benevolence installed at the factory. Even a small child raised without religion or spirituality will feel bad when they hurt someone - when someone is crying. We identify with each others as fellow humans. That identification makes it so we have empathy and compassion for each other naturally. I would have a job and save money because my kids depend on me and I enjoy them. Gnostic atheists have feelings. They love, laugh, enjoy life and beauty. Why assume they have no humanity just because they don't believe in stuff they can't see?

Logic does not remove all traces of humanity from a person. Your assumption that is does, is incorrect. A person without religion still has emotion, behavior awareness, the need to be accepted and loved and a conscience. Why do you assume someone without religion has given up on being human?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
The difference, I believe those people that claim to not have any spirituality whatsoever, and still appear to be trustworthy fall into two categories. Either they are sociopathic and they are merely mimicking societal norms to fit in and achieve their own agenda, or they actually do have some form of spirituality, and they can't define it by any organized religious standard, so they think they don't have any.

So, you're just simply not allowing the possibility of a person to have morals without religion. I really haven't seen ANY evidence of this at all. I wonder why you come to this conclusion. Have you met these people? On what are you basing the assumption that people without religion also are without conscience, empathy, compassion, love, humanity and sympathy?

I think the vast majority of people, even atheists and agnostics believe there is something undefined, that we cannot know, but it still exists.

But why do you think that? Especially if they state otherwise? Why do you think that YOU know people better then they know themselves? Why can you not respect people's positions about themselves? For me, if a person states that they have no spirituality, I take their word for it.

So back to the original question. What is "right?" By whose definition if not a spiritual one? How do you justify right and wrong using pure logic and nothing spiritual?

Aside from logic and spirituality, we have conscience, empathy, compassion, love, humanity and sympathy. These are HUMAN traits. Using these human qualities, we 'know' what's right and wrong.

reply to post by getreadyalready


I think you have a "what came first the chicken or the egg" thing going here. Long before we had Ipods and wi-fi, we had civilizations. Back in caveman days, they had structure. At some point, they became intelligent enough to question things. My belief is that upon not being able to answer the questions they posed, they started to 'understand' God. Knowing or thinking he exists is not the same as Religion. (IMHO) I firmly believe that organized religion was created as a means of control. But to back track a bit, I don't believe that people discussing the origins of creation is a bad thing. I think that is where intelligent thought came from. When man started to categorize and separate groups is when it got stupid. Everyone claiming their God is better, when all the while IT"S THE SAME GOD!

But to get back to your thread purpose, Way back in caveman days, there was a much more "kill or be killed" mentality, but there was order of some sort. Just like in animal groups. The dominant ones keep the less dominant in check. If one sneaks around and steals from others, when caught, he is ostracized and or punished.. All without religion.

It's my belief that a person who has thoughts of mad behavior only to be passive by religious or spiritual belief has sociopathic tendencies but has the strength to master them. Religion or spirituality is just the means to the end. Now knowing that you are a large man and only 7 or 8 hours away from me, please don't take that wrong.

I believe that human nature breeds the caring people and the mean people and spirituality is just a by-product of wonder and amazement at the explainable. Knowing that, I believe that the unexplainable is explained by a power big enough to create life. After all, someone created evolution.

OK, it seems the term "religion" is the big hang up here. Especially "organized religion." I'm not seeing any responses where people truly believe there is absolutely nothing spiritual in existence. It is too late to edit my OP, but what if we take those words completely out and add a new question.

Is there any person that believes in a 100% carnal and finite existence? No piece of them is shared in any way before or after this physical existence. If there is such a person, and they still have morals, or a conscience, where does it come from? If it comes from society or parents, then it likely springs from religious concepts. That is why I brought pure logic into the discussion. If you rule out everything you learned from societal norms, then how do you justify a conscience or morality? It would have to be based in some reward system or tangible benefit. So, how do you justify having a conscience without referring to ingrained religious beliefs?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
If there is such a person, and they still have morals, or a conscience, where does it come from?

From being a human being. We, as human beings, have traits. Traits of compassion, sympathy, empathy, GUILT! This is ONE place where morals come from.

If you rule out everything you learned from societal norms, then how do you justify a conscience or morality?

Social norms are another place where morals come from. Why rule that out?

It would have to be based in some reward system or tangible benefit.

There IS tangible benefit from being moral. I do something good for someone, I feel good about myself. I help someone who needs it, I feel good for doing the right thing. I feel that I'm contributing to a good society. That's my reward.

Let me ask you a question: If you found out tomorrow that all your beliefs were false and that there is indeed NOTHING outside of the physical existence, would you start raping, robbing and stealing? Or would you turn into a sociopath? Lose all your humanity?

OP- it's an interesting question. In the US the vast majority of people profess a belief in God, yet most days it seems we are barely civil towards one another. If you strip away that belief, the question is would people still behave the same or not? I have heard many people over the years say things like: "I would have seriously killed him if not for my beliefs" or "I would have divorced her a long time ago if not for my beliefs". So it seems that at least some people are holding themselves in check due to their beliefs. I have often wondered what would happen in the world if there was irrefutable evidence offered that there is no God. Anarchy? Loss of hope? No change at all? Hard to say.

Originally posted by ShortMemory
There is a lot of evidence that society and religion have in fact ruined what your talking about..
I mean look at other animals, do you see monkeys waging war?

The animal kingdom is extremely violent. At best you can expect a monkey to throw poop on you if you get too close, at worse it will rip off your face like like peel from an orange.

reply to post by network dude

But to get back to your thread purpose, Way back in caveman days, there was a much more "kill or be killed" mentality, but there was order of some sort. Just like in animal groups. The dominant ones keep the less dominant in check. If one sneaks around and steals from others, when caught, he is ostracized and or punished.. All without religion.

This part I entirely agree with, but I think it proves animalistic and self-serving purpose are the driving forces, not morality or empathy. In a pack of cavemen, or lions, or elk, the dominant male will physically assert his will over the other males. Some of the less dominant will act much like eunichs, and they will be allowed to stay and benefit the pack in some way. Others will be driven out of the pack and not allowed to return. The females all contribute to the pack by breeding, hunting, caring for the young, etc. Everybody serves a purpose. If one of the members becomes seriously injured, or ill, or elderly, the pack will wait and observe, but after some amount of time, they will move on and abandon the injured one that can no longer contribute. There is no empathy or charity. So, without spirituality, there is no empathy or charity.

It's my belief that a person who has thoughts of mad behavior only to be passive by religious or spiritual belief has sociopathic tendencies but has the strength to master them. Religion or spirituality is just the means to the end. Now knowing that you are a large man and only 7 or 8 hours away from me, please don't take that wrong

LOL! I do have those thoughts of mad behavior, and reverting back the my cave man ways!!! And it isn't heaven or hell that keep me from doing it. What keeps me civil is an on-going discussion with my particular God, and an empathy for my fellow man (and woman). If I didn't physically experience the suffering of another human deep inside me, and if I didn't believe I had a purpose here to polish and better myself in the time allotted, then I would certainly act more aggressively to the point that I might be dangerous.

I ran out of character count. I will share a recent story of a prayer being answered in real time and changing my decision in the next post.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I have several responses for your posts, I was saving them til last as I get caught up, LOL! I will answer you, but first I wanted to share this story of a prayer being answered and overcoming my own lack of morality and changing my decision making.

As an example of how a prayer being answered, and spirituality causing me to act against my physical instincts. I hired a girl at work a year or so ago. She was gorgeous, and also highly qualified. We seemed to really click the couple of occasions when we talked. Without spirituality coming into play at all, using pure logic, I knew that my job and my marriage was more important than flirting with the girl. Just to be safe, after I hired her, I assigned her to another manager far from me.

So fast forward to a month or two ago. My wife and kids were out of town for a week, I was being good, staying home, going to bed early, (because of my spirituality mostly), and I decide to go wash my truck one evening. This gorgeous girl pulls up behind me in the wash bay, then she recognizes me as the guy from work, she talks about how much she liked me from the first time she we met, she goes on to say she has transferred and is no longer in my department (so in other words she is now available to me, logic out the window), and she says she has been trying to figure out how to contact me. So, my inner conversation starts. We are a few blocks from my house, nobody will be home for a few days, I have a pool, hot tub, beer, wine, etc. No chance of being caught, no repercussions at work, and my physical being is saying, you were made for this! This is what we do! Invite her back!

But my spiritual being was conflicted. It was saying, God made you the way you are, it is fine, act upon it, but it is also saying, society says this is wrong, you are married, etc., but it was also saying society is always wrong, does it feel wrong to you, do it. So, to be perfectly honest, the little demon on my shoulder was winning in a landslide at the moment. The little angel was barely a whisper, LOL! . . . . . . . . . . . . So, I prayed. A quick little prayer while I washed the hood of my truck, and the girl twirled her hair at the back of my truck.

I said, "God, is this a challenge? Because I'm not up to it, and I won't pass, and you know that? OR, is this a gift horse? I don't want to miss such an awesome opportunity you have thrown into my lap because of some misconstrued social norm. So please tell me, is this a gift or a challenge?" I was barely getting through the last word of the prayer when my wife's voice played in my head and saying, "You'll ruin everything."

Now, my wife and I have somewhat of an open relationship, but we don't cheat. Once in awhile we will get a wild hair and swing a little bit, but we have agreed to never cheat, and we have had lengthy discussions about why there is a difference, and we have both agreed that it is our right to allow the other person to do something fun, but if we just sneak off and do it on our own it will ruin everything. So those words were extremely meaningful and timely and they came as a direct result of my prayer, and they struck me at an emotional level. I was still nice, even a little flirtacious to the girl (I do have a rep to protect, LOL), and she had already written down her cell phone number, email address, and new work email address, and she handed it to me, I hugged her, and I drove away. As soon as I was out of her sight, I said, "God, that was just plain mean and I don't appreciate it," and I let the little slip of paper loose out the window, and I went home and got on ATS and then I went to bed a little later.

So, to be 100% honest, I'm still not sure I made the right decision. If my time on this earth is limited, and if my physical being is all that exists, then I made a terribly wasteful decision, but I believe my prayer was answered, and I believe there is more than this physical existence, and I believe my soul grew a little bit by making a sacrifice and going against my instincts.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Is there any person that believes in a 100% carnal and finite existence? No piece of them is shared in any way before or after this physical existence. If there is such a person, and they still have morals, or a conscience, where does it come from?

This is one of the reasons I became convinced as a kid that God is real. There is a different life force or "spark" in humans that separates us from every other living creature. We may love our pets, but you can look into their eyes and clearly that "spark" isn't there. And not only that, but no two of these sparks are exactly the same. It's really quite amazing to consider. It seems obvious to me that the spark is placed there, it's not something that develops on its own. My kids' personalities became quite evident before they were even born, there were characteristics in their behavior and level of activity in the womb that they still reflect nearly 20 years later. Anyway, when I consider my own soul there is something there that transcends life and death. I frankly have never understood how some people can't see that.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
I said, "God, is this a challenge? Because I'm not up to it, and I won't pass, and you know that?

Boy can I relate to that. I often pray that I not be placed in a situation like you described, because I think the outcome would be different, LOL!

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


BH, I have a lengthy response for you from all your previous posts, but I want to tackle this one first....

Let me ask you a question: If you found out tomorrow that all your beliefs were false and that there is indeed NOTHING outside of the physical existence, would you start raping, robbing and stealing? Or would you turn into a sociopath? Lose all your humanity?

The answer is an absolute YES. I am a sociopath at heart. I believe the societal rules and laws don't apply to me. I choose to follow them, but I realize it is a conscious choice, and I could choose to stop following them at any time.

I am intelligent enough to know I can't just run amuck, but I am also intelligent enough to know that I could accomplish a whole lot of dirty deeds without getting caught. I don't care about heaven or hell, I don't "worship" a god, but I do believe there is a god, and I believe there is a purpose to my soul being in this realm at this moment. I'll answer your other question about how to define my god, and whether or not it is self-aware a little later, but the fact is, if I came to believe at this very moment, that my days are limited, and there is absolutely nothing spiritual whatsoever, no Taoist, Buddhist, or Abrahamic spirituality whatsoever, then I would start raping, robbing, and stealing this very night. Or at least I would begin plotting it this very night, because I would not want to get caught.

I would do what most sociopaths do, I would seek out a job that gave me access to helpful information and supplied an alibi when needed, I would probably act more normal than I act now, and I would stop bucking against the system so openly. I would begin to play the part of a perfectly normal family man instead of how I appear now, and in the shadows, I would be consuming everything I could get away with. I would follow my urges wherever they led me, and I would have no empathy for any fellow being except for my direct family and handful of very close friends, and I would begin to influence and train them to exist the same way I was existing, to maximize every moment on earth while also consuming wealth and power to leave behind for my descendants. I would probably end up like every dirty, rich, evil politician or businessman in the world. I suppose, my spirituality is what is holding me back from true 1%er type of success. Being a 1%er in motorcycle circles is different than being a 1%er in business circles, but both require the same level of depravity, and I have the skills and instincts to reach that level in either circle, but I choose to live more humbly and simply.

Originally posted by SavedOne

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Is there any person that believes in a 100% carnal and finite existence? No piece of them is shared in any way before or after this physical existence. If there is such a person, and they still have morals, or a conscience, where does it come from?

This is one of the reasons I became convinced as a kid that God is real. There is a different life force or "spark" in humans that separates us from every other living creature. We may love our pets, but you can look into their eyes and clearly that "spark" isn't there. And not only that, but no two of these sparks are exactly the same. It's really quite amazing to consider. It seems obvious to me that the spark is placed there, it's not something that develops on its own. My kids' personalities became quite evident before they were even born, there were characteristics in their behavior and level of activity in the womb that they still reflect nearly 20 years later. Anyway, when I consider my own soul there is something there that transcends life and death. I frankly have never understood how some people can't see that.

edit on 28-10-2011 by SavedOne because: (no reason given)

EXACTLY!!!

And that is my true purpose for this thread.

I frankly have never understood how some people can't see that.

Neither have I. I just completely do not understand how anyone cannot see that spark that separates us from animals, and not admit that it is something spiritual.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Without spirituality coming into play at all, using pure logic, I knew that my job and my marriage was more important than flirting with the girl.

Totally believe this. You made a moral decision, based on YOUR reward (continued marriage and employment). It was the RIGHT thing to do to avoid temptation.

It may take spirituality for you to "be good" while your wife is out of town, but don't assume that everyone needs it to be good. The fact that I have NEVER cheated in a relationship is not because of my spirituality. It's because of my own personal integrity and knowing how much it hurts to be cheated on. I have no desire to hurt anyone like that and I would avoid it at all costs. Because I care about people. I am human.

No chance of being caught, no repercussions at work, and my physical being is saying, you were made for this! This is what we do! Invite her back!

What if you had? What if you had the party of your life and just enjoyed the heck out of it? How would you feel the next morning? How could you face your wife, knowing you had broken a promise to her? THAT'S what would keep me from doing it. Not a prayer.

What you experienced when you "asked God" if it was a challenge (IMO) is a simple inner dialog. "WTH am I thinking? How would my wife view this? "You'll ruin everything."... That wasn't God, that was your memory of your wife and your agreement with her.

So, to be 100% honest, I'm still not sure I made the right decision.

If you promised your wife something and you stuck by that promise, how can you not be sure you made the right decision? This 'connection' you have with your wife is your Earthly relationship. It involves love, caring, compassion, sympathy, empathy, emotions... ALL of which are human traits.

If my time on this earth is limited, and if my physical being is all that exists, then I made a terribly wasteful decision...

This decision may have 'wasted' an evening with a hot girl, but the other one may well have 'wasted' your relationship with your wife. You made your decision because you didn't want to lose your wife. It WAS a selfish decision. What is more important to you? Your marriage or a night with this sexy babe? Obviously you chose your marriage, and you chose to have integrity.

I believe that you experienced what you experienced. But YOUR experiences do not reflect all others' experiences. When I have been in the situation you describe (and I have) the FIRST thing I think of is my husband. I made a promise to him. MY integrity is at stake. If I don't keep my promises, I am a crappy person. I want to be a good person. I believe that striving to be a good person is the RIGHT and moral thing to do.

It would never enter my mind to ask God's permission because I don't have an agreement with God. I made a promise to my husband and I am a person of integrity. No prayers or external input required.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


So BH, you know you were the spark for this whole thread!!

So, I'll answer a few easy ones first.

Social norms are another place where morals come from. Why rule that out?

I'm not ruling them out, I'm just saying they all have roots in religion.

There IS tangible benefit from being moral. I do something good for someone, I feel good about myself. I help someone who needs it, I feel good for doing the right thing. I feel that I'm contributing to a good society. That's my reward.

Again, I agree, but do you feel good because you were trained by society on what is good and bad, or because of some spirituality that already existed inside of you? Either way, that feeling is #1 a selfish reward, and #2 based in spirituality one way or another.

From being a human being. We, as human beings, have traits. Traits of compassion, sympathy, empathy, GUILT! This is ONE place where morals come from.

So humans are born with sympathy, empathy, and compassion? I'm not so sure about that. We cheat when nobody is looking. We rip each other off, we lie and steal. In life and death situations, we often choose selfishly. Some human beings are willing to jump on a grenade to save their buddies, but others would hide until it was safe to come out. I believe it is a strong spirituality that gives people that courage to sacrifice. If it were only a singular, physical, finite existence, why would anyone sacrifice their own life for another? That would be entirely insane!

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

Let me ask you a question: If you found out tomorrow that all your beliefs were false and that there is indeed NOTHING outside of the physical existence, would you start raping, robbing and stealing? Or would you turn into a sociopath? Lose all your humanity?

The answer is an absolute YES. I am a sociopath at heart.

Ok. That's who you are. Not everyone is the same.

If I found out tomorrow that all my beliefs were false and that there is indeed NOTHING outside of the physical existence, I wouldn't change a bit. My beliefs are just speculation anyway. My behavior isn't based on a religion or my spirituality or external reward or punishment. It comes from who I am. I don't think much at all about spirituality. It's a very minor part of my life. And I have beliefs about it, but I am fully aware that they may be wrong. We might be purely physical, I don't know. My spiritual beliefs aren't even strong enough to keep me from doing something. And yet, I don't cheat, rape or steal. Or even lie. Those things take away from who I am.

.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
So humans are born with sympathy, empathy, and compassion?

The Empathy Gene

We don't know for sure, but strides are being made...

If it were only a singular, physical, finite existence, why would anyone sacrifice their own life for another? That would be entirely insane!

Or love. It could be insanity or love.

Originally posted by getreadyalready


I am intelligent enough to know I can't just run amuck, but I am also intelligent enough to know that I could accomplish a whole lot of dirty deeds without getting caught. I don't care about heaven or hell, I don't "worship" a god, but I do believe there is a god, and I believe there is a purpose to my soul being in this realm at this moment. I'll answer your other question about how to define my god, and whether or not it is self-aware a little later, but the fact is, if I came to believe at this very moment, that my days are limited, and there is absolutely nothing spiritual whatsoever, no Taoist, Buddhist, or Abrahamic spirituality whatsoever, then I would start raping, robbing, and stealing this very night. Or at least I would begin plotting it this very night, because I would not want to get caught.

I honestly don't mean to be rude, but I'm having a hard time understanding this. First off, why would you feel it's ok to be a terrible person if you found out there was no god, or spirituality as you say. So, are you saying you are naturally a terrible person, but this god thing is holding you back from letting loose? Why do you need a god/spirituality to be good, when others can be good naturally?

As far as your experience with the tempting female, it should not take a conversation with a god to to convince you it's not ok to cheat on your wife. That should be something that you know right off the bat is wrong.

Can I ask you something? Why do you need a god/spirituality in order to be good? I think that is a much better question than your original OP.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

I really haven't seen ANY evidence of this at all. I wonder why you come to this conclusion. Have you met these people? On what are you basing the assumption that people without religion also are without conscience, empathy, compassion, love, humanity and sympathy?

Actually, no. I have not seen any evidence of this at all, which is what leads me to believe there are no normal people without spirituality. I believe any person that is 100% absent of spirituality is either already in prison as a psycho/socio path, or they are just as yet undiscovered. I believe all people that are acting with empathy, compassion, love, humanity, and sympathy have a spiritual aspect to their psyche whether they admit it or not.

But why do you think that? Especially if they state otherwise? Why do you think that YOU know people better then they know themselves? Why can you not respect people's positions about themselves? For me, if a person states that they have no spirituality, I take their word for it.

But, how can you take their word for it, when their actions don't support it? They might say they have no spirituality, but then donate money to a charity, or go visit someone in a nursing home. Why? There isn't any good, logical, self-serving reason to do those things without spirituality. Of course, as you mentioned earlier, maybe it makes them "feel good," but why? If they have no spirituality, why do they feel good about throwing away money or wasting time with an unproductive member of society?

Now, for the hard part!!!

Please define "god" (just so we don't get caught up in semantics. Especially let me know if god is part of me or I am part of god. Is god a separate thing from me? Is it my spirit or soul? Is it a 'thing'? Does it have power? Intelligence? A will? Is it aware of us? Can we communicate with it? Does it have its own awareness?

#1, it is absolutely impossible to define god. The moment we try to define god, we have made a mistake and we have limited our arguments, and we will fail at it. Simple things like, "if God created me, who created god?" Well, why did anyone have to create anything? Beginnings and ends are human concepts, they may not apply to gods.

"Is it a thing?" I don't know, what is a thing? Is it physical? Not in our world, but what is "physical" at the next dimension? Humans can visualize 3 dimensions intersecting, that is the world we live in. We can also attribute something called "time" which isn't actually a dimension, but a collection of snapshots. Time is mostly imaginary, but it helps us comprehend things. Mathematics has proven many additional dimensions exist. We use those additional mathematical dimensions in every day life in everything from chemistry to setting prices for airline tickets. Most people are unaware of them, and without extensive mathematical education they can't even comprehend a single additional dimension. Yet, we know they exist, and we know they are useful. If we can't even visualize or comprehend one additional dimension, how can we comprehend 10 additional dimensions?

What I do know, and what I suppose makes me a gnostic theist, is that something spiritual, beyond my comprehension exists. I am a part of it, and it is a part of me. Everyone around me is also a part of it, and they are a part of me. We all share something on a level beyond the physical realm, but it is something we can experience even if we can't define it.

Personally, I think god is "aware," but I don't know if god has any control or power over us. Perhaps god is just the collective bank of knowledge and experience and we can all tap into it at will? Perhaps the better we get at that, the more spiritual and aware we become? Buddha reached enlightenment. Perhaps Buddha became able to tap into it effortlessly and all the universe's knowledge opened up to him? Socrates believed we are born with infinite knowledge, and nothing can ever be "learned" only "remembered." Perhaps, that is how we are all connected, and that is what we consider to be a "god?"

For me, I don't really feel a need to define or understand it. I feel comfortable knowing it exists, and knowing that I need to use my time here to better my own inner being to a point that I can better connect with god.

This is worth watching.

I post this to show that animals(obviously not religious) show themselves to have souls, so why can humans not have an even more intricate soul built in from the start. I think this religiuos/sprirituality questioning is masking the OP's need to believe that God is what makes us good. No offense GetReady, like you man, just think that whatever way we came to be, we came with goodness built in, seems to be a good way to stay alive.

reply to post by virraszto

I honestly don't mean to be rude, but I'm having a hard time understanding this. First off, why would you feel it's ok to be a terrible person if you found out there was no god, or spirituality as you say. So, are you saying you are naturally a terrible person, but this god thing is holding you back from letting loose? Why do you need a god/spirituality to be good, when others can be good naturally?

As far as your experience with the tempting female, it should not take a conversation with a god to to convince you it's not ok to cheat on your wife. That should be something that you know right off the bat is wrong.

Can I ask you something? Why do you need a god/spirituality in order to be good? I think that is a much better question than your original OP.

I don't think it is rude at all, but you seemed to have missed the majority of my argument here. Let me turn it around on you. Why wouldn't it be ok to be a terrible person without a spirituality involved? Using logic and risk/reward type of behavior, and game theory as mentioned in the OP, the notion that only a finite amount of time exists, why wouldn't you capitalize on every opportunity to the best of your ability without regard for other people?

It is a real question, because it is something I don't understand. I don't understand how someone can justify a "good" behavior without spirituality. I'm not talking about heaven and hell, I'm talking about spirituality.

As for cheating on my wife, it is much more common to cheat than it is to be faithful. So many people try to pretend that we should know better, but if that is the case, then why do so many people cheat? Why is our physical nature in such stark contrast to what we should intuitively know is right or wrong? It seems fairly obvious to me that either our societal norms are wrong, and monogamy is unnatural, OR, the vast majority of people are not "good" by nature.

As for your question,

Why do you need a god/spirituality in order to be good? I think that is a much better question than your original OP.

That is the exact same question as the OP, just restated from the negative. So, I ask you the same question, how can you be "good" without god/spirituality?

I'll answer yours first.
Without god/spirituality, I would make every decision based on risk/reward, logic, game theory, and with the knowledge that every passing moment was increasing my urgency because my time is finite. So, I would not voluntarily give away any resource without a guarantee of regaining something larger in return. I would not limit my experiences in any way, as long as the risk of repercussion was low or could be mitigated in some way (i.e. lying). I would be solely concerned with my own well-being, and that of my direct descendants, so I would consume and hoard without regard of anyone else. Acting in any other manner would be illogical and unproductive. Anyone that does not act in such a manner, must be doing so because of some higher purpose or calling......... spirituality.