Whats your problem with OWS, and why dont you help?

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


You see. This is all you're good at.

Trying to pigeonhole someone into your idea what they believe.

I NEVER said YOU were one thing or another. All I am saying is that this movement is predominantly leftist and anti-capitalist.

If that fits you, then fine, stop taking offense to it and own up to it.
Just don't expect to find me at one of your protests.

By the way, just because I'm not a leftist and don't stand with leftist organizations doesn't mean I'm for corporate socialism.

reply to post by projectvxn


No, but you swathed a brush wide enough to cross over into what she and others believe with no more reasoning than a generalization. Furthermore, you have no desire whatsoever to see or look at other viewpoints, certainly not for any reason more than to say, ”You're wrong.”

Originally posted by dethduck
reply to post by projectvxn

 

No, but you swathed a brush wide enough to cross over into what she and others believe with no more reasoning than a generalization. Furthermore, you have no desire whatsoever to see or look at other viewpoints, certainly not for any reason more than to say, ”You're wrong.”

That isn't true.

I've been more than open to listening to the view points of many OWS members.

I just don't agree with them, And therein lies the problem with many of you folks.

You HATE the fact that someone may not see things your way.

Also, the fact that this movement is anti capitalist and leftist is...Well, by all accounts, a fact.

I dont have a problem with the protests. It is good that people are prepared to do something.

However, the problem I have is that they are going after the wrong people. I completely agree that the financial world is a corrupt mess, but thats because the government allow it to happen. If they did their job and served the people, rather than themselves, there would be no need for protests.

People should be occupying parliament/congress/whatever and forcing the government to change the laws back to when they were fair, or else overthrow them and do it themselves. Until the law is changed, nothing can force the corporations to play ball.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

You see. This is all you're good at.

Trying to pigeonhole someone into your idea what they believe.

Dude, I do read your posts, you know. It's not like your position is secret or anything.

I NEVER said YOU were one thing or another. All I am saying is that this movement is predominantly leftist and anti-capitalist.

That's pretty far from all you're saying. Actually you've been saying some really stupid stuff. Don't like being called on it? Don't say it! "Waiting for the reincarnation of Marx," really?!

If that fits you, then fine, stop taking offense to it and own up to it.

It doesn't, actually - I'm not a smoker, I don't have an arts degree of any sort, I'm not a collectivist, and frankly if iI hated America, you and I would have a hell of a lot more in common. See, thing is, you've decided to tar all leftists with this stuff. I am a leftist, so you're tarring me with it. And i figure someone who pitches a hissy fit over "name calling" should be made aware of his own.

Unlike you though, I don't piss my pants and run away from it.

Just don't expect to find me at one of your protests.

Too busy thinking up new ways to abuse words you don't know the meaning of, I'm sure.

By the way, just because I'm not a leftist and don't stand with leftist organizations doesn't mean I'm for corporate socialism.

Again, i'm certain you don't actually know what any of these words mean, chief! Especially that last one, "corporate socialism" - that's a two-word way of saying "capitalism." Now maybe capitalism is another word you don't understand - that's understandable, it's a word that is hugely distorted in America. I'll bet when you think "Capitalism," you think of things like the free market, competition between businesses, mom and pop stores, a burgeoning middle class, and all that other stuff, right?

reply to post by projectvxn

Also, the fact that this movement is anti capitalist and leftist is...Well, by all accounts, a fact.

No it's NOT a fact, it's merely YOUR opinion...

I don't see them as anti capitalist as I previously pointed out...

I'm all for holing the bankers to account and throwing the politicians in jail or hanging them for treason for taking bribes from said banks but i also know you can not ask those in power to give up control by playing all peaceful and asking nice.

Yes darn right we need a revolution but we need to meet force with force instead of going about what is the law and what's not when the laws are designed to protect the very people we are fighting.

ffs it's like having a war where one side is only allowed to fight using stones and the other side has machine guns, you are not going to win anything playing by these rules.

Originally posted by projectvxn

Originally posted by dethduck
reply to post by projectvxn

 

No, but you swathed a brush wide enough to cross over into what she and others believe with no more reasoning than a generalization. Furthermore, you have no desire whatsoever to see or look at other viewpoints, certainly not for any reason more than to say, ”You're wrong.”

That isn't true.

I've been more than open to listening to the view points of many OWS members.

I just don't agree with them, And therein lies the problem with many of you folks.

You HATE the fact that someone may not see things your way.

Also, the fact that this movement is anti capitalist and leftist is...Well, by all accounts, a fact.

edit on 27-10-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

Yes, it is true, your response to this alone shows it. Firstly, I said ”see” others point of view, which you have repeatedly refused to do because ” They're wrong” with no other reason than it's not your viewpoint.
It's easy to ”listen”, it's harder to ”hear”.

Secondly, no one hates the fact that you don't see things their way, just the fact that you refuse to try to.

Third, and my own pet peeve, is often the only thing you about ever use to back your ”point of view” are broad generalizations. Which, by the way, you made three of those just in this response alone.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


I fully understand what socialism is.

Any time government wants to help out their corporate buddies by stealing from tax payers it's socialism. Just because it's corporations doesn't mean it isn't. When government steals from the productive to give to the unproductive...It is ALSO socialism. Any time government takes it upon itself to force the redistribution of wealth, it is taking it upon itself the authority of distribution. A component of socialism.

Where does Marxism fit in? Well Ask Marx:

How does one get to socialism?

"Democracy is the road to socialism."

How does one get to communism?

"Socialism Leads to Communism"

And how do you know you've won?

"The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism."

Yep. I think I understand all I need.

reply to post by Firefly_


Back in the 50's and 60's, African Americans didn't conduct sit-ins in the legislative offices in Jackson and Birmingham and Savannah. They went after the real cause of the problem - the businesses that perpetrated the disenfranchisement of blacks, who bought and paid the politicians, and whose in-store policy shaped the culture. See, it's funny, but there weren't actually any laws on the books mandating segregation - the states didn't even address the issue, instead letting businesses conduct themselves as they saw fit. It was a hands-off policy.

So the goal was the demonstrate to the perpetrators of the wrongdoing that it wouldn't be taken laying down.

So how does this compare to the OWS movement? All of us on this thread - hell, most of us on this board - seem to be in agreement that the government is corrupt, yes? Now. Where does that corruption come from? I hope you don't believe that politicians become sith lords at the moment of inauguration!

The root of the corruption is the moneyed interests. Protesting "the government" is ineffective. So long as the money keeps coming in, we can scream and holler, and just get ignored. Good politicians are bought by bad interests, and the effort goes nowhere.

Disrupt things at the source of the problem. Make it clear that Americans will no longer stand for the moneyed interests carrying this immense influence in our nation. Disrupt them, make it clear the movement will not be halted with a few broken bones, and the result will reverberate down those pipes that the money travels through. The politicians will realize that no matter what, their gravy train is under threat (you don't really think they get fat off taxes do you? :lol and hteir response will be to mitigate the disaster... at which point we pretty much have them by hte balls.

The "divide and conquer" strategy can be applied to them as well, after all. Separate the the junkie from his poison, and he'll do whatever you want.

reply to post by backinblack


Except it was started and funded by adbusters who is anti capitalist.

reply to post by cheftim59


There are some of us that see a conspiracy in a conspiracy. When I see the police firing rubber bullets and tear gas on unarmed people it makes me think that its very possible that these protests are being used to only bring in martial law. However, there are people on this board with less than the average IQ that believe that these protests are only about some college kids asking for free stuff. Ignorance is bliss as they say.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


This is not the 50's and 60's. This is now, and while the situation does bear similarities, the fact is the ONLY reason these corporations and banks are allowed to operate in the manner they do is because of GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION. THEY bend to the will of the lobbyists. THEY make the laws, contrary to the people's will. It is THEY who are the enablers. There is NOTHING that can be done unless we get rid of the corruption in GOVERNMENT and get rid of the laws that protect the evil.

Our current governments are liars who deceived the people in order to get elected then proceeded to completely screw us all in order to protect their sponsors. If you really think standing outside wall street or the LSE will do anything, you are sadly mistaken. They are under no obligation to do anything the people want, unless the government actually do the right thing for once in their lives.

Whats happening now is a case of taking pain killers for a brain tumour. When what really needs to be done is have the tumour removed.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

I fully understand what socialism is.

Any time government wants to help out their corporate buddies by stealing from tax payers it's socialism. Just because it's corporations doesn't mean it isn't. When government steals from the productive to give to the unproductive...It is ALSO socialism. Any time government takes it upon itself to force the redistribution of wealth, it is taking it upon itself the authority of distribution. A component of socialism.

Actually socialism is a system where the means of production are commonly owned and controlled as a cooperative. Neither system you described is socialism.

A system where the collective wealth of citizens is handed to private owners is privatization (when those private owners control the government doing this, it becomes fascism). This is actually directly contrary to socialism.

A system where wealth is redistributed from the top to the bottom is welfare. Now, this may shock you, but such wealth redistribution is the only way for capitalism to work properly. After all, all that money coming in at the bottom just goes right back to the top... since, you know, poor people spend it, and stuff? Another shocker: seeing to the welfare of the people if this nation is actually enshrined in our Constitution, and has been hailed as the hallmark of good government since, well, since our species invented government.

Where does Marxism fit in? Well Ask Marx:
How does one get to socialism?
"Democracy is the road to socialism."
How does one get to communism?
"Socialism Leads to Communism"
And how do you know you've won?
"The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism."
Yep. I think I understand all I need.

As I pointed out before, Marx penned that stuff in 1867. 144 years is a long time for economic and political theory to develop. While he was correct about the progression of Capitalism towards a monopolist, oppressive state, he appears to have been mistaken in where things go from there.

You really do seem to labor under the idea that we on the left see Karl Marx as a messiah figure. It's weird.

But then, so many on the right think Adam Smith agrees with their economic "vision," too

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by backinblack

 

Except it was started and funded by adbusters who is anti capitalist.

i've seen no solid proof of that..

Care to share?

reply to post by backinblack


Sure.

www.adbusters.org...

Notice the date...

reply to post by projectvxn

So what do you call it when corporations pay next to no taxes and are in bed with the state because that is what we have today and the word is fascist and with it comes a police state.

1930's Germany all over again but this time the jewish bankers are on the winning side at the start and i'm not sure about the end.

We need something new but don't ask me what it is or to find a name because i was a capitalist and like open markets but it has turned into a monster because the laws in place have not been used because the money has be used to bribe everyone from the Sec to the FSA and just about every politician in the west and members of the UN.

Big government is bad, more debt is bad and yet we are getting more of them both so could it be that one is the course and one is the effect and we need to start again to find the right path.

reply to post by Master_007


I stopped reading after "Jewish Bankers".

If you had a point to be made it's gone now.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by backinblack

 

Sure.

www.adbusters.org...

Notice the date...

edit on 10/27/2011 by tothetenthpower because: (no reason given)

Thanks for that..I hadn't seen it before..

reply to post by backinblack


Yeah, it made me sad too.

It's unfortunate and obviously I can't say that the whole OWS movement has been hijacked, but it was started with the intent of being hijacked and it seems like it sorta has in the more important areas.

I'm still hoping that they will brush off the establishment left that is trying to take this over and use it as a campaign tool. In the meantime I remain skeptical.