Some Interesting Hearsay About OWS & Our Military

Originally posted by b3l13v3
It'll be a cold day in hell before our own troops march against our citizens, and that's from his mouth.

What this one says is true.
Most folks join the military as a sense of duty towards this area of dirt on this big rock.
Many of my military buddies know exactly what they swore to do.
They will keep their oath.
The ones I'm really worried about is my non military uninformed media following freinds.
They will be the real problem I fear.
Some police officers will figure this whole thing out and do the right thing and keep their oaths as well.
Those who aren't afraid of losing their power, as they realize they truly have none.
The people are our true power.

Could it be the reason behind ending OWS now is because , Nov. 11 is Veterans day and the TPTB don't want
Vets. merging with OWS. That merging would not only give OWS more support but legitimize the cause.
Just a thought.

Was it nor rosovelt that had the army pointing machine guns at the police for trying to break up protests and strikes back in the 1930's or was it someone else.

Yes i can see the regulars taking sides with the public because they are not on gold plated pensions like the police who will sell their own granmothers down the road and are using tasers on protestors in the UK.

I don;t think these OWS protestors have the balls for a fight myself and it will take a fight to remove the zionists from our main streets and politicians pockets but i don't think the anger levels are high enougth for that just yet but it is a good step in the right direction.

I would walk all the way to the USA on foot to see GW-Bush face justice for his treason on 9/11 if it that would bring about his downfall.

Just an addition to the discussion.. we all knew something was going down ( or coming down) when we were forced to list all personal weapons ( make model serials permits etc.. ) when living on base and these lists are kept current. No one was real thrilled and understood the possible implications. Not just hand guns or CCW.. but long guns and hunting firearms.

Just a quick search for a link for the link hungry.. look it up. Google is yer friend. This is just a blog, but has a scan of one of the letters.

doctorbulldog.wordpress.com...

Originally posted by moonzoo7
I live on the Left Coast, but not in LA...but close enough. And the last time I checked, the LAPD is not known for their diplomacy and kindness. In all fairness, though, I hear reports that the LAPD has handled themselves pretty well, and that they're committed to NOT acting like the NYPD...but, we'll see.....

Hmm yes i am reminded of that great Hollywodd film "Harsh Times" where a combat vet kills the enemy as ordered, then dreams of working for LAPD "where the real action is" and he gets denied because they see real killers like him (Federally funded and trained), as "unstable". AND YET these same LAPD cops know they have crips selling crack since the 80s (federally funded and trained) so I guess its really just a preference for which kind of Federal employee the cop adheres to. Returning war vet = unstable, street-wise drug dealing gangs = stable enough to work with.

Anyway, in the film, the dude goes to homesec and they offer him a job killing people in covert Ollie North style ops, if he can piss clean that is. Haha.

The true epic film which relates to this thread, is the 1982 film, "Rambo: First Blood". In this film, John Rambo, returning Army Ranger, (Congressional Medal of Honor no less) is ushered through the local cop's jurisdiction. That is to say, the local cop has his feifdom, and he sees his paycheck as being to protect that feifdom, against returning soldiers who are seen to be drifting deadbeats. It is Rambo's hair and image, that nazi-cop of this town, dislikes. SO QUESTION ONE: At the beginning of this film, how many people agree that this cop, disallows Rambo the right to eat in town? He says as he is driving him out of town "There's a diner 30 miles up the road." ...Is it fair for some cop to make a vet walk 30 miles to get a meal? Then he smirkingly says to Rambo having dropped him off, "Have a nice day!" ...What a jerk.

So then local cop Sgt dumps Rambo out and manages to piss him off. Admittedly, Rambo at this point, should walk the 30 miles, and use the ballot box to resolve his problems. But you simply cannot expect someone who has done war in the US name, to listen to some PD ass who acts like this. So as Rambo says at the end of the film, "There wouldn't have been any trouble if it weren't for that ---- ---- cop!" QUESTION TWO: Who started it?

Well anyway my point in explaining this, is that when Rambo does break out of the jail, and escapes harassment and hides in the hills (just trying to camp out like the protestors?), well, they call in the National Guard. And it's funny the exchange between the Cop boss and his local dudes from the town who are guardsmen. The Denehey character (the cop) basically mocks them for serving the Federal Gov't, and in the film they are made to look pretty stupid, but it is a realistic portrayal in some cases, I am sure.

It's hilarious to see these three archetypes converge, lone war vet Ranger, sherrif of nottingham-type cops, and then Federal Reserve troops. Great flick. Well in the end, the cop Denehey makes his point clear, to Col. Troutman. He says "People start messing with the law and all hell breaks loose!" ...So you see? The cop mentality, cannot deal with "lawbreakers". QUESTION THREE: Who finishes it and what's their ideaological underpinning which allows them to "finish it"?

I am not saying cops are any simpler than Rambo, who is a very simple man. But you see, society, and life, is not as simple as the law enforcer's mandate says it is. It's not so simple to roust up some kid protesting, as it is to take down Rambo, who really is just a homeless vet who wants to sit down and eat a hamburger. So there will have to be an evolution of all three parties: soldiers, cops, and the citizens that empower them. This film should be required viewing for all Americans, I say project the Rambo movies up onto the sides of buildings with a digital projector, then have group discussion.

Originally posted by moonzoo7
reply to post by radosta

 

I've been on ATS for years, long before the Right Wingers jumped on board and started trolling here. Things were a lot different here on ATS before the Tea Baggers showed up. I've witnessed the "before and after" for myself. I've been here long enough to able to reasonably predict how most, not all, Right Wingers will respond to certain topics, and having seen their comments on other OWS-oriented threads.
And your comment about most of the regular military being predominantly conservative...well, isn't it interesting that (based on your own observation ) the job that requires aggression, violence and the outright killing of civilians with the push of a button or drones is filled by conservatives. Think about that. I'm not sure that it's statistically true, but it does provide insight into your perceptions of the ideology of military personnel.
I provided information suggesting that this perception may not be true across the board, and of course it draws fire.
The topic at hand has nothing to do with the tgraditional functions of the National Guard. We all know what their their traditional was before 9/11. That has nothing to do with it.

edit on 24-10-2011 by moonzoo7 because: added content for clarity

edit on 24-10-2011 by moonzoo7 because: (no reason given)

It's a bit of a cop out to call out anyone who dissents with your post from the get go in the OP. Unless that is, you are only seeking full agreement and sunshine blown up your rear. Call it "pre-trolling" if you want. It's still trolling.

Um...you start an OP about how the Guard is going to side against the police and with protesters. Then you say that the traditional role of the Guard has nothing to do with it. Huh? How does it not again? The entire history of the National guard, or its specific training, has no bearing on what it will do in the near future? OK.
As to "right wingers" or conservatives being more violent or aggressive, a cursory reading of history would prove quite easily that "left wingers" and liberals are just as barbaric and bloodthirsty as their counterparts.

I hold a differing opinion with your assessment of the Guard's future activity based on experience and knowledge. I'm sorry if you are sensitive to that.

Originally posted by moonzoo7
reply to post by macman

 

"You had me until you regurgitated this crap."


I see. Since I used the term "Tea Baggers", my post is not true. Spoken like a true "Tea Bagger". If I don't use the verbage that you approve of, then nothing I say is true. Political affiliation has nothing to do with the veracity of this information. It is what it is, no matter what you or I think politically.There is no one to be "had" here. I came across this, and I put it out there. You guys always perform to expectations, on cue, every time, and that's why I said that in advance. Thanks for proving my point on that.

edit on 24-10-2011 by moonzoo7 because: added quote

Yeah yeah, sure sure.
Several things wrong here.
Your assumption that I am part of or affiliated with the Tea Party is wrong.
Your soapbox rant is akin to going and listening to someone preach about how such and such is wrong, then at the end, when everything is making sense, they throw in a racial slur, or blame the Jews crap.

The little bit of urine in your cookie recipe has spoiled the whole thing.

Just now on CNN

In Lakewood Washington, reports of Police who just killed a soldier 32 yr old Trent Thorpe recently returned from Afghanistan!!

What the heck?? 4 officers on leave pending an investigation.....

Originally posted by PapaEmeritus
I'll be glad to lend a hand when the time comes, the police flip out and lose their cool from a little civil disobedience lets see how they handle targets that shoot back.

This idea of 'shooting back' at some rogue cop is stupid.

There are many gangs operating in the US now, you need small town good men, (your local good-guys) who can defeat small time criminals. Now yes, some small cops are racists or douchebags otherwise --nothing you can do about that unless you have different conditioning and hiring processes for them. Still, you'll generally get a better group of citizens this way, than the members of the gangs which oppose local law. Gangs = military hardware, ruthless and very very evil. Cops = weak hardware (by law) and higher code of ethics, and basically good when not pressured.

So to make it harder on cops, is stupid. However, to be a cop, and not know that the law you enforce, is weaponized against the common people, is also stupid. And finally, to sell yourself as a General Issue Human to the US Army, does not give you some international higher code of honor. All three classes in this triangle need to self-analyze their group, and they need to bring all their families to bear on this issue.

What are gangs, but large families? So, build up the families and you build up all three groups, but no gang family can ever defeat the good (and real, meaning non-gang affiliated) families. That is to say, there will always be a critical mass of good families, which keep the gang families in check, one assumes. That is unless the Platonists and Marxists succeed in their goal of destroying the authority of mom and dad. There is an author, Antelman, who equates Plato's Republic with the core ethos of Marxism. Yes it is true that this book recommends children by raised by "The State" rather than their families. Then I see that in Huxley's book "Brave New World", the word "mother" is the one most dangerous word to utter in the future. Humans are 'decanted' and even uttering the phoneme 'mother' us highly illegal. So Huxley's Brave New World is essentially the revealing of Plato's Republic, and Stalin/Marxism is simply the middle-stages of that.

Well, personally, I would rather have mothers and fathers and families, than some Platonic, Stalinist Marxist authority. So the real question is this: Which level of societal power, is most empowered to do the Satanic work of destroying the family? Is it the overseas milspec troops? Is it the local cop who perpetuates crossburnings in the cornfield and other dumb rituals? Which class of authority accomplishes the destruction of the authority of mothers and fathers? That is the real question of the Rambo films. Notice how Rambo says he "has a father somewhere" ..Well that's a sad comment on how broken fathers created damaged sons. Hopefully you and your family can discuss these thoughts together, after viewing the Rambo series of films, which I highly recommend.

If I get three stars on my post here, I'll continue. Next films in line for this discussion are: Judge Dredd (cop as Federal Judge/Executioner), and Demolition Man (dark-ages-type cop meets future soft-cops).

Truthfully, all citizens are just potential soldiers or cops. When Hitler ran the ghettos, he had no problem finding Juden who would police their own people for a extra crust of bread or a uniform.

Well since damn near everyone of our troops is apart of the 99% that have hardships, and NO silver spoon in there mouth, Yes i can see this happening.

We must not forget that our: Second Amendment – Militia (United States), Sovereign state, Right to keep and bear arms.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Our right to form our own militia in order to keep a FREE state. I think a lot of people forget this right. We need to remind the Tyrannts, that have sold this country, from under our feet.

reply to post by Glassbender777

While i disagree with your assessment of the likelihood of troops fighting cops, I very much agree with the notion that the 2nd Amendment is very essential to freedom (most of which we have cheerfully given up).

Technically, the "unorganized" militia consists of any male between the ages of 18 and 45, or more realistically in our current society, anyone who signed up for selective service.

By using the power of federal funding ( a truly corruptive and powerful force), they have pretty much co-opted the idea of local and state militias by federalizing the militia(now NG). Its similar to how the federal government has systematically taken the sovereignty away from the individual states. In a more free association of sovereign states, the militias would remain firmly within the power of those states except for extreme circumstances, ie foreign invasion. And the people would be trained to defend themselves, their neighbors, and their families rather than secure resources for multinational corporations overseas.

Originally posted by backinblack

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by backinblack

 

Pfft. Protesting at all gets you that label.

Unless you're toting rifles and calling for blood to water the tree of liberty. Then you're a "patriot"

Well here in Melbourne they were called out for having knives and hammers..
They were butter knives to make lunches and the hammer was for the tent pegs..

After reading the news about the Police Violences in Melborne action and the same type of dispersal in Sydney Occupy movement . It made me wonder if the police are acting from orders higher than civil ordernances.

The Melborne Mayor was disgusted by police action in Melborne and the government claims they had no proir knowledge of it . So who is giving the ORDERS to police in Australia and America .

Are they a private army dressed in black for a private concern that seems to have a secret agenda , which we all know about .

The difference is that I for one never realized the extent that maybe these young police are actually a private army against the people .
Police dont join the services to actually serve and have a patriotic outlook . That they are protecting the citizens.
They are kinda twisted as they dont seem to have much moral fibre .

The guys who join the military are more based in service to the one country they are a part off. They are a different ilke of people in the two different gun carrying forces.

So Im starting to think that the Op is onto something here .

Originally posted by moonzoo7

I'm sure that the trolls and Tea Baggers are about to pounce all over this thread, but I don't care.
I'm secure in the knowledge that I'm telling the truth, and I, for one, believe this hearsay.
Let the chips fall where they may...

edit on 24-10-2011 by moonzoo7 because: punctuation repair

edit on 24-10-2011 by moonzoo7 because: spelling correction

edit on 24-10-2011 by moonzoo7 because: added to title for clarity

The only reason I read this thread was to see how fast you got ripped up.

That has to be one of the dumbest connections.....look moonzoo

How about I call you a Kool-aid drinker?

You really should dilute that crud before you drink it.

Tea-bagger indeed.

A Tea-Party member, believes in reining in the federal government..to include taxes, spending, constitutional law, and for a good many, illegal wars.

Did CNN or Bill Maher tell you that the tea party is a reference to the original Boston Tea Party..

in which, stout, patriotic men fought against TPTB, and against taxation without representation...

I already know I'm wasting my breath with you..

but, maybe, just maybe, I planted a seed that will grow into a mighty oak.

I took the oath.

I am an Oathkeeper.

And I will try to be the last man standing, in the National Archives Building, with the United States Constitution at my back, when the onslaught begins(or ends, as it were)

I hate to be the naysayer here....but I'd personally like to see the U.S. Military in ANY FORM stay out of OWS. I love them coming as former or retired, but once that line between the U.S. Armed Forces and a protest or political movement begins to blur...in event the slightest ways....it can lead to a place our nation has worked it's entire existence to avoid going. There is a reason the Military was established and intended to be 100% and absolutely Apolitical in nature. I agree with the reasoning of that, and I pray it continues that way.

There are some bells we simply can't 'unring' and however great an idea it may seem for OWS, it won't always be OWS for the concern of the day. I just can't help but feel encouragement of this type of thing could well lead to a place in our future we look back to this period and deeply DEEPLY regret having going the direction it did.

reply to post by moonzoo7


I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I'm extremely proud of any serviceman or woman who takes their oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, seriously enough to protect the citizenry from the beatings and maceings that the protestors are suffering at the hands of the NYPD; on the other hand, I hope it doesn't come to that.

My Marine Corp brother Sgt. Thomas is leading the charge to protect the protestors. He has just visited the Occupy Chicago protest to lend his support, and from what I understand he will be traveling around the country in the coming weeks to do the same in other cities as well. Here is my ATS thread from this morning on his visit to Chi-town: Sgt. Shamar "Thor" Thomas: Occupy Chicago Peaceful Protest

I'm so proud of Sgt. Thomas and what he's doing. I consider it an honor to be able to call him my brother.

The link between members of the US militaries and OWS members is very real and is a construct of the social structure in which was instilled in America. Yeah, some would say we have traits of a caste system, and as well we are a construct of multiple other means of social structures all encompassed by a strong ideology of democracy.

Of course there will be Marines in side the OWS movement, because family ties know no bounds.

Warning: What I say next is pure speculation based on nothing... lol only joking, granted i could sit here and provide historical references to the progression of similar movements, but even many of those accounts could be wrong and the OWS movement only mimics but doesn't replicate previous events for this is a new sport with characteristics of previous sports and a whole new bag of rules(or lack of).

Of course the OWS movement will progress and only gain members and strength in their involvement and influences.

Of course, the progression of OWS will result in one day, somebody acting in an extremist fashion. Which will create a turning point, from non-violent, peaceful protests to out-rage and physically violent actions.

Of course the government will take action in trying to control the situation, and this will most likely begin as a weak military presence amongs the protestors.

Of course the protestors will surely recognize the presence of the military forces, and their authority will be recognized by the police forces that previously had jurisdiction over the area.

Of course the protestors will not back down while the military forces are brought to attempt to control the situation, which will result in a 'small' showdown between the OWS'ers and the Military, while at the same time, the members of the police force will not site on idle, but rather attempt to control the situation as well.

There will be a strange, or 'unevenly dissolved' relationship between the police officers and the military presence. For it is the individuals that will decide where their allegiances fall, not the group. The willingness to separate from previous ties, in order to strengthen support for where an individuals allegiances truly fall is and will become increasingly prevalent.
Of course the members of the military will attempt to act with in the law, for they are now policing their own civilians, and their ties with the members of the OWS'ers will result in a less climatic scenario.... Well, that is untill the local police attempt to get involved.

Of course there will be a handful of police officers that attempt to control the situation via their own means, and this will cause conflict between the military forces and the police forces. Because the implied motivation for these protests seem to vary from one to the other individual. There is a lack of orginization, and having said this, it would seem to me that the police forces will entertain the idea, that they can just simply use previous tactics that have been used for riots and croud control. They(select groups with in the police force) will attempt to carry out these initiatives in the name of securing civility, or a coheirent social structure justifiably needed for the sustainability of the city/state/country.

Of course this will be recognized as a very unstable situation in which needs to be addressed.... Not by simply bringing in more troops, not by eliminating the presence of the OWS'ers, but by bringing forth restrictions on the freedoms of the civilians and OWS'ers themselves, as they are now to be seen as a 'Threat' to the structure and sustainability of the local/national societies.

Not to go any further, I truly beleive that we are going to become dangerously close to a social Anomie for the practice of determinism tells me so.

Anomie:Anomie is a term meaning "without Law" to describe a lack of social norms; normlessness". It describes the breakdown of social bonds between an individual and their community ties, with fragmentation of social identity and rejection of self-regulatory values.


As social disorder
The nineteenth century French pioneer sociologist Émile Durkheim borrowed the word from French philosopher Jean-Marie Guyau and used it in his influential book Suicide (1897), outlining the social (and not individual) causes of suicide, characterized by an absence or diminution of standards or values (referred to as normlessness), and an associated feeling of alienation and purposelessness.
Further understanding: See Marx's take on Labor and Alienation

!!!He believed that anomie is common when the surrounding society has undergone significant changes in its economic fortunes, whether for good or for worse and, more generally, when there is a significant discrepancy between the ideological theories and values commonly professed and what was actually achievable in everyday life.!!!

Regardless of who pledges allegiances with who, if there is no reflection and addressing of self the result will be of catastrophy.

Best friend, brother-in-law, neighbor. All three active duty or guard now, 10/24/2011. None will support a crackdown against OWS or any other American's, and all three claim they don't know anyone who would.

If the bankers and their government stooges want to play hardball now, I have a feeling they will swing for it. Or better yet -- maybe its time to start really representing the people again?

reply to post by smallpeeps


The third star is from me, the OP. I see where you're going. I'm an aspiring writer, and I'm reading a technical book on writing right now, which actually does mention the original Rambo story. There is a point made by the author that the Rambo mythos is a commentary on how war damages the men and women who fight those wars.
It is good to look beyond the surface of stories, that's for certain. I'm glad that someone came along to put forward some elevated concepts, not just the same old divise political diatribe. I was also a philosophy major, and I'm familiar with Plato's ideas about the role of authority in the lives of the citizens.

There are a lot of issues here, this is not a black and white situation. What inherent Rights do we Americans have? Should we desire to have any entitlements at all, or should it truly be every man, woman, and child for themselves? If you're born into poverty, should you be given any chance at higher education at all, or just suck it up and accept your lot in life? If you're poor, do you deserve a grant? If you're handicapped, should you just settle for begging on the streets because you can't work and therefore cannot pay rent? Then the Church steps in, the ultimate parent, to take care of you. Then you're forced to participate in and perpetuate a certain belief system in order to receive help.
What is equality? Are we our brothers and sisters keepers, or is it a free for all for survival?
I'm not offering answers, I'm pointing the implications.

Our troops would not fire on our people, but you can bet if the Guard is called out, they'll be in riot gear right alonside the cops pushing the protestors back. Sure, a few random guys in the military might balk and risk their careers, but it will not be wide spread. Groups of soldiers always jaw and talk righteous among themselves, but when they are on duty, they forget all the power to the people crap and they do as they are ordered.