American Protests in comparison to protests elsewhere, significantly more peaceful...why?

Authorities in Canada are prepared for potential clashes with protesters, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police said. Amnesty International called on Canadian authorities to arrest Bush for "war crimes" while activists announced Occupy Wall Street-style protests of the economic summit in Surrey where the former presidents were scheduled to speak along with world finance experts. "We would prefer his home country try George W. Bush," said Alex Neve, secretary-general of Amnesty International Canada. Neve said Bush should face trial for ordering the so-called enhanced interrogation, such as water boarding, of suspected terrorists. "But the Obama administration has made it clear they do not intend to do that, so we are asking Canada to. We are not naive. It's an uphill fight but we feel we have a strong case," Neve said.

www.cnn.com...

It amazes me that this happens in another country when it is our former President in question, it always seems to me that we are too complacent, and I find this also evident in our protests. Protests are occuring in other countries around the world over economic issues, and now the same protestors are organizing to request the arrest of George Bush. The significant difference I see in our protests in comparison to these other countries is that we seem to be very peaceful and without any clear request or demands, while foreign protestors are unleashing violence and mayhem in the streets as authorities appear to restrain their response. In contrast we seem to be having all the violence and mayhem unleashed against our peaceful protestors and daily are unlawfully arrested.

www.youtube.com...

This is the most revealing video I've seen regarding the recent events and what our Government says out of one side of their mouths when painting a picture of other leaders, while their actions or what they allow to actively go on inside of this country obviously speaks so much louder than words.

reply to post by shell69


The reason protesters here are not pulling the same crap violence on private businesses here is cause we are armed. Do you really think shop owners here will sit still for rocks thru there windows? If violence breaks out here it will be very bloody. It won't be police against the citizens, it would be citizen against protester.

reply to post by shell69


I would suggest that the main reason is that people in the other countries are not as worried about trigger happy cops!

Seriously, in europe, we riot and have water cannons, etc , blasted at us, or we are "kettled" into certain areas and contained, etc. People do not have to worry too much about police brutality. That is not a dig at the US cops, rather at the fear of possibly being on the receiving end.

That said, i may be well off the mark here and if so would welcome correcting

reply to post by shell69


There are some excellent arguments for peaceful protest.
There are also some excellent arguments for forcefully tossing out the U.S. government, especially if you follow Thomas Jefferson.

Don't be surprised, however, if someone claims it's the flouride in the water that's making people passive.

The good thing is, whatever the case, people ARE protesting, around the world, and it's growing.
What will result, only time will tell.

reply to post by Flavian


Personally from the videos I've watched online I'd be worried about Tazer, Mace, Club happy cops! Not to mention the way it seems as though the first person punched is usually a woman (which I am)... after reviewing God only knows how many videos yesterday I was amazed at the fact that it was usually a female that got clocked in the face, seemingly to incite chaos and initiate multiple arrests. The other thing that was quite apparent was the "gang" mentality I witnessed... it was like 5 officers to one person who was not even resisting in the first place. I couldn't believe what I saw, our police force seems to be extremely angry and I don't understand at all.

This has bothered me a bit, I wonder how much the propaganda has used this situation to further a push in other countries and to incite violence which otherwise would have remained luke warm. Did this movement push the premature global response or is this something which was bound to happen after Egypt and other countries showed their dissatisfaction?

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by shell69

 

I would suggest that the main reason is that people in the other countries are not as worried about trigger happy cops!

Seriously, in europe, we riot and have water cannons, etc , blasted at us, or we are "kettled" into certain areas and contained, etc. People do not have to worry too much about police brutality. That is not a dig at the US cops, rather at the fear of possibly being on the receiving end.

That said, i may be well off the mark here and if so would welcome correcting

edit on 20-10-2011 by Flavian because: (no reason given)

Having lived in Europe for the past 6 years, I'd say that is a pretty good observation. European laws are incredibly light and weak, the cops very restricted to what they can do, so yes, you will see more bolder and violent protests in Europe, because not only is there far less fear of the cops, but even sentancing/punishments are often minimal, so even getting arrested in Europe is not something to be terribly afraid of.

I noticed part of this difference when I was back home in the US this summer visiting my family and friends. I found that as a general rule, at least in my part of the country (western US) that in general, people were alot more polite and courteous in the US compared to Europe. My husband, who is British born and bred, was the one who actually pointed this out. Americans in general, don't argue with or confront strangers who offend them, as much as people back in the UK did. I explained to him that of course we didn't, at least out west, because you never know if someone's packing heat. It's generally not a good idea to start yelling at and honking/screaming at someone who just cut you off, given the old California pasttime of freeway shootings.

After some discussion, we both agreed with the old adage: an armed society is a polite society. Happy Slapping was never a fad in the US, because American kids who want to live know that walking up and assaulting a stranger who could be armed, would be a pretty risky thing to do.

This extends into the realm of law and order. In general, sentances and punishments for anything in most EU countires are very light. When there is little consequence for doing even voilent and destructive acts, people will act up and push the boundaries further. With the OWS protests, I think its the opposite, the cops are the ones pushing the limits, and the protesters are being unfairly and unustly harrassed. I believe there must be a happy medium. People should be allowed to freely protest and demonstrate to their hearts content through whatever form of expression, provided they are not engaging in the destruction of other people's property, directly endangering public safety (like blocking exists or preventing emergency vehicles from passing), or assaulting/bringing unprovoked bodily harm to others. Once they start crossing those lines, they are no longer protesters or citizens airing grievances. They have now become common thugs and holligans, and should be dealt with accordingly, whether it involves tazers, pepper spray, rubber bullets, ect. I have no sympathy for common thugs, especially if they are ruining a legit expression of freedom of speech.

A happy medium must be struck, on both sides of the Atlantic, I think, when dealing with these situations. The cops in the US really need to be reigned in and constitutional law re-enforced, and the European laws need to tighten up and get a bit more disciplinary, the cops need to bring in a bit more smack down on these out of control idiots.

reply to post by nineix


YOU stole my thunder

Flouride (ps, do other places get dosed like us A'mercans [my hick bible thumper never been out of my county but I know everything voice)

and also the Dept of Indoctrination (Dept of Ed)
they shoveled the whole "sit-down" version when it came to history of strikes and labor movement in our history.
ALWAYS leaving out the details of how it was the protestors violently fighting against oppression which ever lead to America having a middle class. and the elites, JUST AS NOW, hide behind their bought off badges...................................yes children, the enemy of the american LABOR MOVEMENT WAS THE COPS..And yet afterwards, they benefitted from the union structure which they fought against....

anothe example of what piles of crap cops are.

thuggish violent cops...Andy Griffith does NOT WORK HERE

reply to post by rebeldog


Where I live in Spain, there is no flouridation in the water, yet the people here are about the most docile and fearful of both cops and criminals, due to the legacy of Franco and the rampant corruption in the govornment, from the local village council all the way to Madrid.

Americans are hardly docile. Random looting and violence are not the hallmarks of free speech and protest, they are the actions of childish morons with nothing better to do. An American shop keeper would be more likely to use violence and force to defend his property and life than a European one, as European countries have alot of laws that tend to punish self defense in a number of cases, especially using violence to protect property.

So again, I say its more a cultural/legal/political difference of climate than anything to do with "flouridation". The UK has quite alot of flouridation, and the British have been anything but docile, if you have been paying attention to the angry student protests last year, and the widespread contempt for the coalition govornment.

Flouride=docile=BS, as far as I'm concerned.

Personally I feel it has to do with 40% of Americans being on some kind of anti-depressant. There is no will to fight anymore. We have been "pacified".............

reply to post by shell69


Well, from UK based protest experience (and here i am bracing for the backlash) it is my experience that is generally the ladies in the protests that just do not have the 'when to shut up self preservation gene'. Seriously, i have seen ladies attempt to slap officers and then be surprised when they get whacked with a baton!

Now personally, i think all demonstrations should be non violent as violence takes away from the validity of the argument - obviously there are a few exceptions to this but mostly not IMO. Non violence also helps if the response is violence as this gains sympathy for the original message.

As a totally off topic question, is that you your avatar pic? Sorry for the sexually repressed male response but....WOW!

By the way, i should add that over here it is generally only a little bit of batton whacking rather a long, drawn out process!

reply to post by shell69


It's hard to tell why they're so much more peaceful than some of those abroad without complete information, which is certainly not available to me. Based on the information that is available to me some things might not completely add up but if it is put in context it probably would.

Part of the reason is the way both the protestors and the police have been trained and taught from birth. In fact in many ways the violence later in life is influenced more by early upbringing than more recent manipulations. Children that are raised in an authoritarian manner tend to be more violent and they're usually more susceptible to propaganda and more inclined to obey their leaders whether or not that is the government or the protest leaders.

this is what doesn't completely add up to me; many of the people in the United States have been raised in as authoritarian manner as others in other parts of the world if not more so yet they're more peaceful. A couple of the more violent is Italy and Greece; I suspect they may have been raised in a more authoritarian manner as well so that may make sense. Another possibility is that maybe their a lot of organizers, often with different goals that are controlling their own people. One example might be one in Atlanta that made the news a couple weeks ago where everyone seems to be following the leader. The people that are leading them aren't inciting them to violence but in this case they may have manipulated them for other reasons which might have something to do with race.

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by shell69

 

Well, from UK based protest experience (and here i am bracing for the backlash) it is my experience that is generally the ladies in the protests that just do not have the 'when to shut up self preservation gene'. Seriously, i have seen ladies attempt to slap officers and then be surprised when they get whacked with a baton!

Now personally, i think all demonstrations should be non violent as violence takes away from the validity of the argument - obviously there are a few exceptions to this but mostly not IMO. Non violence also helps if the response is violence as this gains sympathy for the original message.

As a totally off topic question, is that you your avatar pic?

Sorry for the sexually repressed male response but....WOW!

By the way, i should add that over here it is generally only a little bit of batton whacking rather a long, drawn out process!

edit on 20-10-2011 by Flavian because: clarification

First off I'd have to ask...exactly when do you think while "PROTESTING" one ought to utilize that precious "know when to shutup gene" that you superior males possess? Just out of sheer curiosity???

Secondly, I absolutely do not think "attempting" to slap someone warrants a beating with a baton whether you are male or female...which is part of the point I was trying to make when posting the videos of "police brutality".

And last but not least...well nevermind I'm not going to even respond to that, although I am tempted to tell you I'm an older male and that's my daughter who died a grueling long drawn out death a few years ago from a horrible disease and I seriously do not appreciate the emoticons with your tongue hanging out Buddy! You might want to exercise that precious gene and know when to shutup..

reply to post by zacherystaylor


I think that's a good point, but almost might lead me to think just the opposite. In the U.S. we hear a lot of freedom of expression "talk" but as the the video shows that's all it is. We've actually been raised more by our public schools and well you know "it takes a village", anyway I would think that we've been raised to obey our government or else... atleast that's what we've seen and are seeing now. In other countries such as Europe they have a lot more freedom in a lot of things and live in a more open society (I hear) maybe that's why they "act out" so much??? I think that in other places however the oppression and unjust leadership has caused them to just "explode" in retaliation.
With that being said, maybe when things get much worse in this country and the scope reaches past our pockets we will also "explode"... it remains to be seen I'm sure.

reply to post by shell69


I think that's a good point, but almost might lead me to think just the opposite. In the U.S. we hear a lot of freedom of expression "talk" but as the the video shows that's all it is. We've actually been raised more by our public schools and well you know "it takes a village", anyway I would think that we've been raised to obey our government or else... atleast that's what we've seen and are seeing now. In other countries such as Europe they have a lot more freedom in a lot of things and live in a more open society (I hear) maybe that's why they "act out" so much??? I think that in other places however the oppression and unjust leadership has caused them to just "explode" in retaliation.
With that being said, maybe when things get much worse in this country and the scope reaches past our pockets we will also "explode"... it remains to be seen I'm sure.

Not everyone is raised the same way which means many people in different parts of the country can be expected to react differently. Also people that are raised in authoritarian manners don't all obey the same leaders. You might think the Tea Partiers are rebelling against the government; however in many cases they may actually only be following their leaders who are leading the rebellion. They may still be taking orders from authority figures just not the official government; instead they may be following the demagogues in their local areas. In some cases some of the Occupy Wall Street Protestors may be doing the same thing; in others it may be much more democratic.

Originally posted by ohioriver
reply to post by shell69

 

The reason protesters here are not pulling the same crap violence on private businesses here is cause we are armed. Do you really think shop owners here will sit still for rocks thru there windows? If violence breaks out here it will be very bloody. It won't be police against the citizens, it would be citizen against protester.

That is an excellent observation
Star for that.

The reason why is simple to answer: WAY OF LIVING. Those people have NOTHING to lose...and Americans have NOTHING to lose...but they "think" they do. These 'protests' are more like "love taps" and a little lower than BEGGING, if not begging. "Oh please, please stop 'hookin' your pals up in wall street. Oh please, dont tax us more...tax the rich. Oh please, please "CREATE" more jobs." Oh please, please help us with college tuition. Oh please, please take care of me when i'm old because i didn't prepare for my future; when i was YOUNG. Oh please, please Uncle Sam.....please be kind to us. We'd hate to lose the homes we DONT OWN, and the S.U.V. we borrowed, and can't afford. How will i ever live without my Blackberry or I-phone??? Please sir, pleeeeeease. hahahahhha

"Land of the free, Home of the Brave"? hahahah Did i actually BELIEVE that crap...when i served, in the U.S. military? See, how DEEP denial goes? Americans are FAAAAAAAAR from free, and HARDLY brave. When's the last time "Americans" were 'brave'? hahahahahaah Like, uuuuuuh NEVER! And yet they have "bullying" policies? hahahahaah REAAAAAALLY?

Oh wait, there WAAAAAAAS a time when Americans were 'brave'...i think it was Wako. No? Now THAT'S how you protest! Anything less, is just a cheering team!

I should also mention.....i'm not advocating violence....but SOMETIMES....it HAS TO get violent, in order for "change" to be made; be it good or bad. Someone's got to learn a lesson. In other words, you have to take a stand for what's RIGHT and what's WRONG. Not fighting against corruption and taking a stand, is the same as partaking in it! Why do you use a SYSTEM you KNOW to be corrupt? Why do you still have driver's license, bank account, accumulated debt, etc, etc...?

Don't blame the system, blame yourselves; for being so STUPID....and passive!

reply to post by shell69



ok, first off i was actually agreeing with you in general. however i was also making the point that in protests i have experienced in the uk, in most cases where ladies have been hit by police they have actually assaulted the police first + then been surprised by it. if u saw my other post i do not approve of violence as a rule.

on the far more important issue i clearly would not have made comments if i had known the circumstances. i do not know you so won't offer disingenuine platitudes. i will however offer a genuine apology for any offence caused. it was certainly not intended in that way

Originally posted by ohioriver
reply to post by shell69

 

The reason protesters here are not pulling the same crap violence on private businesses here is cause we are armed. Do you really think shop owners here will sit still for rocks thru there windows? If violence breaks out here it will be very bloody. It won't be police against the citizens, it would be citizen against protester.

Good point, guess if I was a business owner then I would be sure and put a sign in my window...
"CLOSED FOR BUSINESS TODAY-OWNER IS OCCUPYING WALLSTREET-UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE"

:

Because US protest culture is hugely anemic. Why? Because for some stupid goddamned reason, the model constantly used is the anti-veitnam protests from the 60's. You know, the ones that failed to accomplish anything at all?

The civil rights movement was nonviolent but made great use of civil disobedience, and the threat of violence was clear - "We want our rights. We're willing to do this peacefully, but if we have to, there are several million of us, and we're NOT happy..."

The labor movement practically waged war - generally on the defensive, but they weren't afraid to give as good as they got. Same was the case with the veterans protests after World War One. The women's movement was non-violent, but was plainly unafraid to confront the violence being dealt to them.

We go further back in US history, and we see that "protest" looks a lot more like "armed insurrection."

But fast-forward back to the 1960's, and the hippies and the anti-war movement. This was not just a non-violent movement, it was passive. Basically it consisted of waving a sign and chanting a slogan, then going home when it got dark. THIS is what defines our modern form of protest. It's simple, easy, and self-congratulatory.

Now, I don't think protest should be violent. I do think that civil disobedience needs to be a core part of it - All you guys enamored with the 2nd amendment, how do you feel about the need for expensive permits to have your toys? Why should the 1st amendment need even pricier permits? How do ALL of us feel about the police - paid for by our taxes, who take and oath to protect and serve their communities - being used as a military squad whose #1 job is to silence criticism of the status quo and break the heads of anyone they think is a "leader"?

The hippies accomplished nothing, and I really don't think we should model protest off people who thought "dropping out" was going to change the world.