I need a home made CO2 Scrubber. Any ideas?

Originally posted by TheRedneck
You do not need a CO2 scrubber to rebreath the air... you need oxygen. CO2 is not poisonous... but a lack of oxygen is fatal.

You can get that oxygen from CO2 using magnesium as a reducing catalyst, but the operation is complex and the equipment would be fairly large compared to the size of a vehicle. It is also energy intensive, since you are raising the energy level of the carbon in the CO2... think of it as making fuel from waste... the reverse of burning fuel.

I'd be more concerned about the chlorine gas. I believe there are ways to remove chlorine form the air pretty effectively.

TheRedneck

And I was just going to ask how he planned on getting a brinks trunk...


Ok...Probably a very stupid question... What about a gas mask? Would that filter out the dangerous gasses? It seems much easier than building this complex system using a brinks truck.

Originally posted by Rocketman7
I think that it might not be a problem, but the fact is not knowing if the tanks will explode or leak and become a problem, removes your sense of security.

Two years down the road, kids are being born and people are recovering from the apocalypse but they are not going to go over to those danger zones, and try to decommission a pulp mill, or 5 giant pulp mills however many there are there. They won't have the skills.

If there were 10 survivors only and one was a pilot, you could bomb them and get rid of them that way.

Otherwise its better to move where there aren't any and while you are moving, you are moving through areas where there are pulp mills. The Northwest of Canada and the US has them.
So you still need the truck and air management just to relocate.

For instance to get to Bamfield, you have to drive through Port Alberni. Or else barge your truck there.
And then once there you are 30 miles away from a pulp mill.

Maybe some time the prevalent winds might even be heading your way. If you have never lived in that area like I haven't, then you wouldn't know.
Here in Victoria, I do know, because I can smell the pulp mill certain times of the year.

And if you can smell the pulp mill, well you are dead if one day it is Chlorine gas. Or your children.
I should check population zero to see how long before tanks can be expected to leak or blow up.
I think they require cooling. Which requires power.

You are way off base. Paper mills only use liquid chlorine. It's used as a bleach to whiten the paper. The danger of chlorine gas comes from when the mill has a fire or explosion which will evaporate the liquid, creating the gas.

In some post-apocalyptic scenario, the tanks will eventually degrade and rupture like any other compressed tank. But the outcome would be relatively harmless. Dropping some bombs on it, however, would be a very bad idea because you would be creating gas.

The chlorine tanks do not require cooling. All of the tanks are designed to withstand a certain amount of heat and pressure buildup. They all also have pressure relief valves built in to avoid a rupture during a fire or when overheated by the sun.

I live about 15 miles from a very large paper mill. I know the smell they give off. That is NOT the smell of chlorine gas. The two smells are different. If you find yourself in a chlorine gas cloud, you will definately know the difference.

Originally posted by Moshpet
You would be better off, and safer to invest the money in a real gas mask.
One that is full faced.

If you know of the risk save up the money, and do it right.

How do you know you will even make it to the truck/van if there is a chlorine spill?

This is the test you need to have in mind:

Can you make it, from inside your house in bed to the vehicle:and get there holding your breath. WITH with your eyes squeezed shut. Then can you get inside and run the 'system' for a few minutes, to clear the air in the vehicle before gasping for air? Lets break it down step by step:

1- Awake to a gas alarm from the police or fire dept with their sirens and loud speakers driving by warning of impending leak. (Or for our purposes, a leak that has happened and they are trying to get out of harms way too.)

2- Figure out from the foggiest of sleep that your life is in dire threat.

3- Hold your breath in a panic, where your fear is making your body ramp up for fight/flight.

4- Realize / remember that the gas can blind you, so you stop and squeeze your eyes shut and fumble for your keys, pants etc.

5- Make it down the stairs/hallway/ to your door leading to your vehicle.

6 - Open the locks and the door. (If you have keyed dead bolts and have to put the key in the lock.... add more steps for that.)

7- Make it to your vehicle, and find the right key, STILL with your eyes shut to unlock it.

8- Actually get it opened and inside.

9- Remember how to start the system, and do you remember how long it has to run to ensure there is no poison gas in the vehicle.

10- Then there is the OH-S*** moment, of My god what if it doesn't work!!??!!???!


Now ask yourself: Can I get from my bed, to a central (rescue/bug out) closet and get the mask on before I have to gasp for air?

If you can find your way to the closet that has the toilet paper, in the middle of the night.... The odds are you can can find your 'rescue closet' that holds your mask ect in the dark with no lights, and get there without sucking in a lungful of poison gas.

From there you can get anything else done, like putting the bug out bag in a van etc and driving out to safety. Or walking out.

Good luck, the first step in solving any problem is knowing how many steps you need to get out of the problem.

In life and death emergencies, the less steps you need to perform, the better.

Even then you will want to practice putting the mask on.

M.

We're not gonna make it. We're not gonna make it (slap!)

It seems hopeless right now. Living on a wish and a prayer. All it takes is for the power to go out and the generators to run out of fuel and the tanks start to leak. Within 6 hours of a power failure with no people minding the generators.

Now it will bleed off and stay in low lying areas. And it might dissipate. It is all a crap shoot. But it doesn't end there. Fire at the pulp mill could cause them to explode, then you have a big deadly cloud and it might be coming your way. You almost need an early warning system.

They have those at the pulp mills. They sound a siren so people who work there have time to put their masks on and get to a safe room.

If, I had the truck already fitted out, I could make it. If it had detection equipment and oxygen. As long as the wind carried the cloud away and it didn't just settle in. But you could drive to high ground.

But how many times would it happen? Would it catch you one sunny day while you were swimming and taking a chance? Keep in mind the entire Western part of Canada has pulp mills as does Washington state. I don't know about Oregon.
Let me see...

13 pulp mills in Oregon, 19 in Washington State.

32 in British Columbia.

Well you should check out your own areas. Here in Victoria BC we will all be dead if TSHTF between Sept and Nov.

If we get some odd wind pattern, then that date range could be extended to cover any time of the year as a fluke weather pattern.

Everyone east of Victoria will be dead, up to Alberta. Pretty much. Dead or dying. Worst case scenario.
Vancouver has a pulp mill downtown I think. Most cities in British Columbia have one. Thats where they get their work force.

I'm not going to give up. Especially if TSHTF at some other time of year. That time can be spent on preparations of some sort. To reduce the risk.

Move on top of a mountain. Like the mountain here beside the city the Malahat. Or any real high ground.

And don't go to low lying areas without protection and then just if you have to and leave the women and children behind on high ground.

Or else get on a boat and go somewhere where there aren't any for miles.

reply to post by Rocketman7

The dangers of chlorine gas are very dependent on the concentration. Chlorine is commonly used in water to kill bacteria, although there are some concerns about long-term effects of it on humans (not to mention it tastes terrible if not acclimated to it). Chlorine in water produces two different acids, hydrochloric and hypochlorus (both powerful acids). In air it can combine with oxygen to produce chlorine oxides (think bleach, as in Clorox). In fact, chlorine is photoreactive (reactive in sunlight), and actually explosive under the right circumstances. This is why plants use it in photosynthesis.

In order for it to produce burns, however, the concentrations must be pretty high. As another poster mentioned, a better alternative would be a gas mask... especially if you do not have a good knowledge of the chemistry involved with air purification systems.

TheRedneck

reply to post by gimme_some_truth

Believe it or not, you can get those trucks... usually in need of repair and expensive, but they don't just melt them down after their service life. Public auctions usually have them up occasionally.

The thing about an armored truck is: I'm not sure they are even airtight. Are they designed to withstand chemical attacks?

TheRedneck

reply to post by Rocketman7


Explanation: S&F!

1stly .. For your purposes I would check out off the shelf scuba diving gear and check out the patents [no not linking sorry ..have to do your own legwork ] on the rebreather units and see if you can juryrig one of those [if you can even afford and or access such devices ] into the enclosed airconditioning system.

2ndly For a home based additional simple CO2 scrubber...get a PLANT! (Hint: It gives you oxygen in return for exactly the stuff you dont want ... oh & can also be food! )

Personal Disclosure: I hope this helps!

Edited to add.. wait a minute.. just incorporate it into the drivers seat ... 1 for each seat .. make it detachable so can go mobile as well !

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by gimme_some_truth

Believe it or not, you can get those trucks... usually in need of repair and expensive, but they don't just melt them down after their service life. Public auctions usually have them up occasionally.

The thing about an armored truck is: I'm not sure they are even airtight. Are they designed to withstand chemical attacks?

TheRedneck

Well you know that protecting the money has always been job one for the elite. And if you use gas canisters you could immobilize the Brink's guards, so they control the airflow and they are supposed to be air tight. The air system has a heater attached and has 4 or 6 large round vent ports coming out of it, and onto those ports you can fit gas mask style canisters.

Now thats how they are designed as far as I know, but who tests that thing after it has been in service 1 year, let alone 5 years. So it may not be 100% protected but it is pretty much protected. Enough that radiation fallout and most chemicals would not be a problem.

You can get a Sanuvox air filtration system, that uses UV light to destroy chemicals in the air as well.
Ambulances have them under the seat so that they destroy bacteria and viruses. And including bio-weapons.

Sanuvox

So as long as you had time to get a truck, and if most people are dead or dying getting one should be easy, and had the resources available, Sanuvox system at hand or available, then you could install that and then you have a mobile safe room.

But you will still need an oxygen tank, but in case of emergency you could just crack the valve a bit, and that tank will vent into the truck, and it will last a month, but then you need the CO2 scrubber.

So you won't need a month to get to high ground but you want some security so you are not in a panic driving like a nut, flip the truck, and die right there.

But for sure you need a detector. You need a CO2 detector and you need a chlorine detector and a smoke detector somewhere in the truck or outside the truck where it will give you enough time to do something like fit canisters, close the vents, whatever you need to do.

But as soon as you do close the vents, you are now in a dangerous environment. Will the air inside be explosive? Will it be toxic? Is your sodalime still good or has it absorbed all the CO2 it can? The military stopped using colored sodalime which changes color as it absorbs CO2 because the dye was toxic.

Its a problem. But with a good plan, its not insurmountable.

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
reply to post by Rocketman7

 

Explanation: S&F!

1stly .. For your purposes I would check out off the shelf scuba diving gear and check out the patents [no not linking sorry ..have to do your own legwork

] on the rebreather units and see if you can juryrig one of those [if you can even afford and or access such devices

] into the enclosed airconditioning system.

2ndly For a home based additional simple CO2 scrubber...get a PLANT!

(Hint: It gives you oxygen in return for exactly the stuff you dont want ... oh & can also be food!

)

Personal Disclosure: I hope this helps!

Edited to add.. wait a minute.. just incorporate it into the drivers seat ... 1 for each seat .. make it detachable so can go mobile as well !

edit on 20-10-2011 by OmegaLogos because: Edited to remove extra unrequired word and add the Edit bit.

I actually thought of getting plants. You know have them on the seat beside you in the truck. But they don't have nice legs. And you need 3,000 large bushy spider plants to remove enough CO2 for one person. That was the reason those enclosed biosphere test programs failed. CO2 and oxygen systems were not working.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by Rocketman7

The dangers of chlorine gas are very dependent on the concentration. Chlorine is commonly used in water to kill bacteria, although there are some concerns about long-term effects of it on humans (not to mention it tastes terrible if not acclimated to it). Chlorine in water produces two different acids, hydrochloric and hypochlorus (both powerful acids). In air it can combine with oxygen to produce chlorine oxides (think bleach, as in Clorox). In fact, chlorine is photoreactive (reactive in sunlight), and actually explosive under the right circumstances. This is why plants use it in photosynthesis.

In order for it to produce burns, however, the concentrations must be pretty high. As another poster mentioned, a better alternative would be a gas mask... especially if you do not have a good knowledge of the chemistry involved with air purification systems.

TheRedneck

Gas masks for chlorine buy you 5 minutes. I did some work at a pulp mill once and had to go through the safety procedures. You have to have a mask around your neck at all times. As soon as you hear the siren, you must put on your mask. You then have something like 3 minutes to get to your designated safe room.

Now the thing is if you are 16 miles away, like in Victoria here, then maybe the gas will dissipate and dilute before it reaches you.

Actually when you think about the way the system works, after 6 hours loss of hydro electricity, power outage, and no one minding the generators, the generators which run the cooling system stop. The Chlorine tanks then begin to heat up. Liquid chlorine stored in those tanks must be kept cold. As it reaches ambient temperature it vents into the atmosphere.

After 6 hours of no power. So then it will continue to vent until all the gas within that tank has been vented.
Since liquid Chlorine must be kept cold and the cold maintains the liquid state or else it becomes a gas.

So within a week of Z Day for instance, all Chlorine tanks should have vented their gas to the point where it is no longer a real danger.

After they are no longer under pressure, 1000 feet around the tank would be enough of a stay clear area.
Even 300 feet.

If you were suited up in a hazmat suit and mask you could approach the tank at that time without danger.

So really the critical part is that first week. Or however long it takes for those tanks to vent.

either add-on a greenhouse to your primary residence

or create a series of nutrient tanks for growing Algae...here's a link to begin your homemade, practical air scrubber

www.instructables.com...

Originally posted by St Udio
either add-on a greenhouse to your primary residence

or create a series of nutrient tanks for growing Algae...here's a link to begin your homemade, practical air scrubber

www.instructables.com...

I don't want to sound skeptical but 24 pounds of CO2 per year, is that going to help me inside the truck in an enclosed environment? Biosphere 2 had algae and it didn't help them.

The average person exhales 1 kg per day of CO2.

Originally posted by allenidaho

You are way off base.

Yes I will be off base. And no where near an underground base. Didn't you see Resident Evil Apocalypse?

There will be zombies in there. And horrible mutated creatures.


Everyone thinks that zombification is a virus, well what if it isn't? What if it is caused by something unknown?

In Night of the Living Dead and similar they don't say they know why it happened.

If it has something to do with the software in the human brain, that it is triggered by some celestial event there may be zombies even underground. Simply because of some Y2K style brain software glitch.

Besides all that, do you want to be goose stepping your life away for the man, or do you want to be organic farming in the idyllic countryside?

With a cool safe room on wheels its easy to pick up chicks. Lest we forget that little detail.

Underground you will be having test tube babies like in Brave New World.

Up on the surface we will be pulling daisies out of the cracks of our asses on a regular basis. And going to the mall.

You guys can be the Morlocks, we will be the Eloi.

A CO2 scrubber will do you no good.

Then you breath you take in O2 and exhale CO2..

If you scrub out the CO2 you still will have less and less O2 to breath till you run out.
This run out point is about 17% at that time you will pass out. and at about 15% you die.

If its chlorine gas you are worried about you would be better off scrubbing out the chlorine gas from the outside air as it was pumped into you shelter.

This can be done with a sodium bicarb solution.

Originally posted by ANNED
A CO2 scrubber will do you no good.

Then you breath you take in O2 and exhale CO2..

If you scrub out the CO2 you still will have less and less O2 to breath till you run out.
This run out point is about 17% at that time you will pass out. and at about 15% you die.

If its chlorine gas you are worried about you would be better off scrubbing out the chlorine gas from the outside air as it was pumped into you shelter.

This can be done with a sodium bicarb solution.

In the truck I will have an oxygen tank with a mask for emergency use anyway. If the city is on fire, good luck not getting smoke inhalation.

As far as your shelter not having wheels, when the cannibal hordes or gangs with their dogs, come to get you, what are you going to do when they throw a Molotov cocktail on your building and set it on fire?

I will be safe and warm in the truck delivering pizza "That will be two gold coins please."

Well a well equipped survivalist pizza delivery guy should have one of these if he leaves the truck for emergency rescue.

SCBA

600 bucks used. Or, scavenge one when TSHTF.

If you see an overturned firetruck, check to see if it has a couple packs like that in a cabinet on the side of the truck.

Scenario One:
Ok so you are in the city, the city is on fire. So you get down low to avoid smoke inhalation, and that is where the Chlorine gas is.

Scenario two
You are inside your camperized Brink's truck, enjoying a coffee and watching the city burn, you are using your home made HHO system and it is generating a nice Oxygen Hydrogen mix to help you get oxygen.
A bit of chlorine gas gets in in a crack by the floor, the hydrogen in the air, and the chlorine mixes, the UV lamp under the seat in the air purifier, closes that loop and the truck explodes since hydrogen mixed with chlorine explodes in contact with ultra violet light.

I am wondering if you are talking about scrubbing carbon dioxide (CO2) or carbon monoxide (CO)? CO2 detection is very problematic (even climate scientists have difficulty detecting levels); AFAIK there are no commercially available CO2 detectors. CO detectors are plentiful though.

If you are talking about CO, simply keep the exhaust out of the living space. If you are talking about CO2, read on.

I did come across some reactions that would purify the air of carbon dioxide and chlorine gas. If you pass the air through water, the water will absorb a good deal of the chlorine as hydrochloric acid (HCl). A solution of sodium hydroxide will precipitate the HCl as salt. it will also react with carbon dioxide, forming sodium carbonates.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
I am wondering if you are talking about scrubbing carbon dioxide (CO2) or carbon monoxide (CO)? CO2 detection is very problematic (even climate scientists have difficulty detecting levels); AFAIK there are no commercially available CO2 detectors. CO detectors are plentiful though.

If you are talking about CO, simply keep the exhaust out of the living space. If you are talking about CO2, read on.

I did come across some reactions that would purify the air of carbon dioxide and chlorine gas. If you pass the air through water, the water will absorb a good deal of the chlorine as hydrochloric acid (HCl). A solution of sodium hydroxide will precipitate the HCl as salt. it will also react with carbon dioxide, forming sodium carbonates.

TheRedneck

Here is a CO2 sensor

Well thats an interesting idea to use like a bubbler to absorb the chlorine, then convert it to salt.
Brilliant. And it converts the CO2 to baking soda! Bonus!

I could be baking pizza in the truck while everyone else is panicking in the streets.

All I need is a bag of flour some cheese and tomato sauce.

You know if there was an actual product or something that you could buy I might go for that. Otherwise I am not that handy as a do it yourselfer that way when playing with hydrochloric acid and stuff. The fumes would kill me in minutes.I have worked with hydrochloric acid and all I know is add the acid to the water, do not add the water to the acid. Muriatic is the same as hydrochloric.

You know what I did buy a while ago was an air filter machine from SONY, for 100 bucks, you know to freshen the air and it has a new process.

The old ones used to generate positive ions but people claimed that was bad for your health.

So now they have an atomizer, and it generates positively charged water vapor. Which kills viruses and cleans the air.

But it says right on it, it can't do anything about CO2. Yet, the vapor, if you inhale that, it has to be increasing the oxygen content of the room I would think. Even if it can't get rid of the CO2.

In my apartment building the vent for the boiler room is below my window pumping Carbon Monoxide into the air and it comes in my window,.Not always but its a pain. Still when TSHTF I will be hardened to that sort of inconvenience.
And the smell from my two male roommates smells like Night of the Living Dead so I will be desensitized to the smell.