'No papers, no water’: The sign denying basic services to Alabama’s illegal residents.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by Destinyone

Welcome to the nut thread.

Well, the tagline in my mini-profile does say "Seeking truth but finding nuts", so...

I am really impressed by this new law, as are most citizens I have spoken to. It is even a regular topic of discussion in my Business Law class this semester. I am also wondering how many of the 50 (or is it 60?

) states Obama is going to sue in this term? He seems to be racking up quite an impressive number already.

TheRedneck

As long as he thinks he can finagle a vote out of it...he'll keep suing. That's all he really knows how to do. Fund raise, campaign, and vacation. His disconnect with this Country, well...it's mind boggling at best.

As I posted earlier in this thread. I applaud Alabama for doing what our Government is paid to do, but won't.

Des

Originally posted by TheRedneck

When illegal aliens are able, by skirting the law anyway, to work for less than minimum wage, it means that Americans are fighting a losing battle for jobs. Americans have to be paid minimum wage by law, and since illegals are not abiding by the law anyway, they can undercut the rest of us. Now, by making them pay more to live here, their costs and their prices will go up so those that do decide to stay are at least on a more level playing field with the rest of us.

And here I thought you didn't understand...

TheRedneck

Of course, the issue is always short term verses long term gains.

It's the quarterly profit target.

Businesses need to make money in the short term. That's why they hire the undocumented. They understand the long term effect, but they need profits now.

The illegals have no "union" to turn to, and demand better rates, more vacation time, insurance for medicals, maternity leave, sick days, etc...they have none of these "advantages" that the legal worker has. So, the business that hires them saves a tremendous amount on "costs".

That's short term profit, however.

But, that is the "magnet" that brings the illegals across the border.

Now business will have to accept a lower profit margin. American workers cost more. If the business can, it will move operations to Mexico. And the profits will be made there instead. The factories will be built over there instead. They will go where the cheap labor can be found.

But, some things can't be exported. You still need local labor to pour the cement on the next new building in Alabama.

Now, an unemployed computer programmer can get that job. He can pour the cement.

But, the brick factory will probably make the cement bricks in Mexico and truck them back across the border instead of using expensive local labor to manufacture the bricks themselves.

You need more laws to get those jobs back. You need a laws preventing American business from relocating abroad and shipping their product back home.

American business shipped so many jobs to China, that the Chinese manufacturing industry wiped out large segments of American manufacturing, which used to be the best in the world, way back when.

All because of cheap Chinese labor.

Even though it costs a pretty penny, to ship those goods all the way from Chins to the US, with expensive fuel costs for ships, it's still so much cheaper to use Chinese and Mexican labor, that the high cost of fuel doesn't even make a dent in the corporate profits.

Something for nothing.

It can't be done.

Every time you appear to be getting something for nothing, somebody is paying the piper.

It's all wrapped up in disguise, hidden from view, in a complex web of transactions, hard to unravel.

You buy cheap homes, get cheap food, but are out of work? Why? Your labor is too expensive !

Who want's to acknowledge that they are worth less than they think? Nobody.

It's got to be somebody else's fault.

Those illegals, they are the problem.

If we only get rid of them, we can charge what we want, and then buy those "cheap" homes, and "cheap" food.

So, imagine you succeed. The 20 Million undocumented all leave America.

You finally get that job paying what you think you should get.

But, guess what. The prices of all those goods that were so cheap, suddenly rise, and once again you still can't afford to buy them. You may as well have remained unemployed. At least, in the old days, you could blame the illegals, bitch, drink beer, and feel good letting off some steam. But, now, what is the excuse? Nobody left to blame.

reply to post by DRAZIW


How sad...your paint palette has only 2 colors. Black and white. At best, all you can do is create varying shades of grey.

What a stagnant reality you live in. The vibrancy of reality totally eludes you. Much like many of our politicians

reply to post by DRAZIW

Wow, you do cover some ground in a single post.

Businesses need to make money in the short term. That's why they hire the undocumented. They understand the long term effect, but they need profits now.

You'll get no disagreement from me there. The long-term effects of hiring illegal immigrants are loss of jobs, a declining standard of living, and the inability to sell goods to a strapped market. Of course that's the problem.

But, that is the "magnet" that brings the illegals across the border.

Of course it is. The lower costs associated with hiring workers illegally, meaning illegal practices can flourish in the employment, are a driving factor in illegal immigration. As it stands right now, there are plenty of ads in the papers for 'menial' positions harvesting crops and in construction. But believe it or not, those jobs are being filled, and the workers filling them, while probably worse off than they were five or ten years ago, at least have some income.

And I have even taken part-time jobs trying to finish my degree... nothing wrong with that. At least I have something to put in the gas tank every week and can pay for those luxuries like electricity and heating oil this winter. Oh, what a selfish man I am!

Now, an unemployed computer programmer can get that job. He can pour the cement.

Possibly. Or possibly an unemployed cement worker can pour the cement.

You do realize, of course, that the unemployment is not among high-income jobs, right? Those are not the ones being affected. It's the construction and agriculture jobs that have been lost, and the ones who used to work them who are disadvantaged the most. Computer programmers (the field I am going into, incidentally) are not hurting for jobs, because the typical illegal alien can't do their jobs.

But, the brick factory will probably make the cement bricks in Mexico and truck them back across the border instead of using expensive local labor to manufacture the bricks themselves.

And of course that is the other demographic that is hurting: factory workers. And of course it is for the reasons you mention. But it goes much deeper than that. The minimum wage, raised twice in the past few years, has never made anyone better off; it simply raises the pay and allows the cost of living to fluctuate with it, so the net effect is that although you may have more money, you have less buying power. Continuous regulations of business have become such a burden that even if the labor rate were the same, it would still be advantageous to move a factory elsewhere. And of course there are the legal hoops that must be jumped through, for everything from why you can or can't fire an employee to unfunded mandates to try and force employers to do the job of the Federal government. All these things, combined with NAFTA and CAFTA (which make it illegal for the United States to maintain their economic interests) have caused the factories to leave.

I say we should stop this outflow of business by rewarding businesses that stay here in the US instead of punishing them. Reset the EPA back 10 years. Stop giving any tax benefits to any company which chooses to relocate a plant or construct a new plant outside the US. Give those tax breaks to those who stay here and provide good jobs to our people. Roll back minimum wage to a more reasonable level. Place tariffs on imports to make them price competitive with domestic manufacturers. And STOP GOVERNMENT OVERSPENDING so we can keep more of what we make and again sustain a vibrant economy instead of throwing it away in that black hole called the government.

See? I still have plenty of people I can blame.

And no one is talking about getting something for nothing. What we are wanting, and what this law is intended to help accomplish, is for an honest day's work to be not only attainable, but to cover a day's living expenses. Now maybe that's a little much for some to comprehend, because it has been so long since that was the case, but I assure you, as someone who saw those times, that it happened. A weekly paycheck would buy groceries for the week, pay the bills, make a car payment and a modest house payment, and leave a little over for raising the kids or savings. It has happened before, and it can happen again, but it cannot happen when those who helped create this country can't afford to buy gas and groceries because a criminal is making the money instead.

No more criminals in Alabama. That's what we-uns down heah call a "good thang".

TheRedneck

Originally posted by Destinyone
reply to post by DRAZIW

 

How sad...your paint palette has only 2 colors. Black and white. At best, all you can do is create varying shades of grey.

What a stagnant reality you live in. The vibrancy of reality totally eludes you. Much like many of our politicians

edit on 13-10-2011 by Destinyone because: (no reason given)

The solution is simple then. Get rid of the politicians, and take up office there yourself.

Put your "vibrancy" theory where your mouth is, go make the difference. Prove me wrong !

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Originally posted by Destinyone
reply to post by DRAZIW

 

How sad...your paint palette has only 2 colors. Black and white. At best, all you can do is create varying shades of grey.

What a stagnant reality you live in. The vibrancy of reality totally eludes you. Much like many of our politicians

edit on 13-10-2011 by Destinyone because: (no reason given)

The solution is simple then. Get rid of the politicians, and take up office there yourself.

Put your "vibrancy" theory where your mouth is, go make the difference. Prove me wrong !

I/we are changing the laws...we are doing something. You just don't agree with it. We are making a difference. You, on the other hand, make excuses.

Originally posted by Destinyone

I/we are changing the laws...we are doing something. You just don't agree with it. We are making a difference. You, on the other hand, make excuses.

Yes, you are changing the laws. The problem is that you see the "job" as the resource. But, it's not the job that is the resource, it's the "people" that are the resource.

You trying to get rid of the "people" to protect the "jobs."

You've got capitalism backwards. The "people" create the "jobs".

Get rid of the people, and eventually the jobs will all dry up.

You'll see.

If the current unemployed are not resourceful enough, or entrepreneurial enough, to create that job, then getting rid of those that are working won't produce that long lasting job you seek.

A temporary vacuum will create immediate employment, until the resources rebalance again.

It takes time to see the ultimate effect of any change introduced into the economy.

Those people you're getting rid of are "resourceful" folk. They travel all the way from various parts of the world to get there in Alabama. The locals just sit on their butts and complain. They haven't even checked out the next state, to see if there's work there. Probably haven't even checked on the next town in the same state !

They don't really want to work. They want free cookies.

This is a law to protect the free cookie eaters.

Originally posted by macman
I could care less what other countries think of the US.

That's the entire problem with this country.

We are citizens of the EARTH. Stop acting like America is the only country that matters, and maybe we'd have some damn ALLIES!

reply to post by DRAZIW

You trying to get rid of the "people" to protect the "jobs."

You've got capitalism backwards. The "people" create the "jobs".

Get rid of the people, and eventually the jobs will all dry up.

Well, that's certainly a confused statement. Are you saying that all people create jobs for others? Really?

I say that some people create jobs, and that jobs are necessary for people to live in a society. The ones we are kicking out of Alabama create nothing but poverty for everyone around them, and drive out the ones who could create decent jobs. They are not a boon to society; they are a bane on society. They contribute nothing; they live in squalor that others would not dream of living in, work for wages that are so low as to be illegal in conditions that are both illegal and dangerous, and then they typically send what little they do make back home to their families instead of spending it here.

Oh, you say, they pay taxes! Sales tax, income tax, all kinds of taxes. Well, do they? Sure they pay sales taxes when they buy something, but that is irrelevant because they don't make enough to spend much and send their money out of state instead of using it here. They don't pay income tax, because they make so far below the poverty line and could be identified as criminals if they filed.

Somehow you have formed a mental picture of well-dressed homeowners eating out in nice restaurants and driving nice cars, all the while happily paying into the government doles and only wanting to be left alone to live. Yes, there are some immigrants like that; I have a cousin who fits that category very well, as he is (was, recently retired) an aerospace engineer at NASA. He is Mexican. He is also a naturalized American citizen, and I have the highest respect for him. It's interesting that he has told me many times how much he detests illegal immigrants.

But we are speaking of illegal immigrants. We are speaking of those who wade across that ditch called the Rio Grande, penniless, then make their way to other states (like Alabama) in hopes of making some sort of living. They have nothing, they are uneducated and have no skills, and they have no morals and no understanding of the law. So they find some friends who are over here and they all hang out in the early morning hours in front of the local lumber stores, waiting for someone to pick them up, let them work a day for a couple dollars an hour and no benefits, then find someplace they can lie down to sleep until the next day.

Those jobs they do are themselves illegal. The employers skirt the tax laws by paying cash, skirt the immigration laws by not informing ICE of the exchange, skirt the OSHA and labor laws by keeping their mouths shut and only hiring illegals who will do the same, and in the process keep American citizens from working and making a living... all in the name of greed.

Forgive me for not being more sympathetic to their need for cheap labor.

As for the prices rising... prices will stabilize not based on cost of production, but on what the market will bear. If no one can buy the food in the store, either the price will fall or it will ruin on the shelves. Few companies will allow such destruction to continue; they will either drop the price to increase sales or stop carrying the item. of course, not carrying anything is called "going out of business", and that is something business owners avoid.

Hopefully this quick explanation has corrected some of the confusion that obviously exists inside you.

TheRedneck

reply to post by DieBravely

Personally I would rather not have allies if they are going to be worse than the enemy. Not all damage comes at the point of a missile, nor at the nose of an airplane. Sometimes economic destruction can be just as traumatizing to a people.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by DieBravely
We are citizens of the EARTH.

We're not citizens of Earth. Earth is not a civitas. No one has a social contract with Earth. Earth protects no one's rights, it provides no social safety net, there is no Earth government with a monopoly on the legitimate use of force over the entire territory of Earth. The Earth exercises no functions of sovereignty, it has no international legal personality, and it can have no citizens.

reply to post by DRAZIW

But, it's not the job that is the resource, it's the "people" that are the resource.

Exactly. And what happens when resource is very abundant? It becomes almost worthless. Do you want for american people to become worthless? Corporate slaves working for slave wage, knowing that another ten people wait outside to get their job if they want a raise or underperform? Do you want the first world to become the third world?

Price=demand/supply

Originally posted by TheRedneck

Well, that's certainly a confused statement. Are you saying that all people create jobs for others? Really?

Yes, all people create work for other people.

They may not hire you directly, but their mere presence and action causes work for others.

Look how much work the illegals have created for "lawmakers" and "cops" and "border patrol agents".

That's all paying jobs.

They contribute nothing; they live in squalor that others would not dream of living in, work for wages that are so low a

That's because they are paying an "invisible tax" = "Proper wage - Their wage"

That is their income tax. The benefits of that tax revenue shows up in the cheaper homes and groceries.

Think of it this way. Imagine American citizens took all those jobs the illegals do, but the government taxed the Americans at such a rate that they effectively get the same low rate the illegals get today. Then the government uses that tax revenue to "subsidize" the homes and food, so these things become more affordable to all.

Do you see the "income tax" that the illegals are paying?

It's collected at source. They don't even need to file a return. That tax never even enters their pocket. But, the benefits of that tax revenue enters your pocket, without you even realizing it.

Oh, you say, they pay taxes! Sales tax, income tax, all kinds of taxes. Well, do they?

Hope that clears up any confusion about illegals paying tax. They pay all the taxes you pay and more.

Forgive me for not being more sympathetic to their need for cheap labor.

That's ok. You're forgiven. You'll find out soon enough, when all the illegals leave, what benefit they were providing while they were here. We never miss something until it is gone. It's like the air, we take it for granted.

Hopefully this quick explanation has corrected some of the confusion that obviously exists inside you.
TheRedneck

There's no confusion here. Americans cannot afford to live. They cannot afford to pay other Americans. They can barely afford to pay the illegals for their cheap labor.

The reality is this:

CHINA lends AMERICA the cash to consume stuff. That money is funneled down from the federal level to the state and local levels to pay for all sorts of services, and to subsidize the American way of life. Some American business men take that money to pay undocumented workers to earn a faster buck, and put more profits into their pocket instead of directly into some other American worker's pocket. But, the discrepancy is made up for in the cheaper homes and food all the Americans "temporarily" enjoy.

That's the formula. China is really paying all those illegals, not the Americans. Americans haven't worked or paid for anything in decades.

When China pulls the plug, Americans will "suddenly" realize how much they are really worth in the world markets.

reply to post by DRAZIW

Look how much work the illegals have created for "lawmakers" and "cops" and "border patrol agents".

That's all paying jobs.

Shooting yourself in the foot?

By that very admission, you defeat your argument. OK, so maybe a few cops are hired, but those jobs are needed to protect Americans from violence caused by the illegal aliens. That's another good reason to want them gone. Or do you think you would be better off if you lived in a crime-ridden area that needed more police?

Nope, self-defeating argument. Steee-rike one.

Think of it this way. Imagine American citizens took all those jobs the illegals do, but the government taxed the Americans at such a rate that they effectively get the same low rate the illegals get today. Then the government uses that tax revenue to "subsidize" the homes and food, so these things become more affordable to all.

Look at it this way. The government subsidizes illegal aliens more than they do working Americans. That's how those living spaces can be rented for so little, and that's how the illegals get food: government subsistence payments. But while Americans (like myself) have been paying into the system all these years, these illegals have not.

Massive disinformation. Steee-rike two.

You'll find out soon enough, when all the illegals leave, what benefit they were providing while they were here. We never miss something until it is gone. It's like the air, we take it for granted.

Oh, sure. Now I'm worried. After all, just look at what their leaving has done for poor Mexico... no, wait, the effect has been unnoticeable. Well, look at what the effect of massive illegal immigration has been to the US economy in general... oh, but we're much much worse off than we were before massive illegal immigration.

Complete lack of reality. Steee-rike three! Yer out! Just like illegal immigrants in Alabama.

You may have a point hidden somewhere in the America vs. China point, but that is irrelevant to illegal immigration. The whole problem has been overspending and an inability to live within our means. For the government, this has meant massive debt from China; for the people it has led to increased illegal immigration as well as the loss of jobs to overseas factories. But one does not fix a problem by ignoring one of the dynamics of said problem, and there is little to nothing the state of Alabama can do to fix the International or Federal problems. We can, however, fix this one.

And we are fixing it. If you disagree so much, why not take in a few poor illegal immigrants? I'm sure a lot of them need homes right now, and you surely have more space than you need.

TheRedneck

reply to post by DRAZIW

They may not hire you directly, but their mere presence and action causes work for others. Look how much work the illegals have created for "lawmakers" and "cops" and "border patrol agents". That's all paying jobs.

So by your logic, if someone nukes half of New York, he helped americans, because he created a lot of jobs required to rebuild it?

Again, broken window fallacy.

Originally posted by DieBravely

Originally posted by macman
I could care less what other countries think of the US.

That's the entire problem with this country.

We are citizens of the EARTH. Stop acting like America is the only country that matters, and maybe we'd have some damn ALLIES!

No I will not.

I could care less what others do. And I want and expect the same.

Stay out of my affairs, and I will do the same.

Allies for the sake of Allies is foolish. Kind of like rating your social status on facebook friends.

I want to thank TheRedneck, Destinyone and others who have shown wisdom and intelligence in this debate. It amazes me that anyone would want open borders or find that illegal immigration is a good thing, when clearly it is not.

Originally posted by Night Star
I want to thank TheRedneck, Destinyone and others who have shown wisdom and intelligence in this debate. It amazes me that anyone would want open borders or find that illegal immigration is a good thing, when clearly it is not.

And I thank you Night Star for your voice of reason in this debate. Today, on FOX news, I see the DOJ has set up a hot line for complaints to the Alabama Law on immigration. Once again, the Fed Gov't is overstepping it's boundaries.

Alabama has the right to make this law. The Fed is arguing that it's not a State issue, so the State has no legal right to make this law. There are already Fed Laws on immigration, they (the Feds) just refuse to obey them.

Originally posted by Destinyone


Alabama has the right to make this law. The Fed is arguing that it's not a State issue, so the State has no legal right to make this law. There are already Fed Laws on immigration, they (the Feds) just refuse to obey them.

edit on 14-10-2011 by Destinyone because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-10-2011 by Destinyone because: (no reason given)

And that there is the real reason this thread even exists today. Wouldn't want to piss off any potential future voters for Oblabla.

Originally posted by TheRedneck

By that very admission, you defeat your argument. OK, so maybe a few cops are hired, but those jobs are needed to protect Americans from violence caused by the illegal aliens. That's another good reason to want them gone. Or do you think you would be better off if you lived in a crime-ridden area that needed more police?

Imagine a society where nobody breaks any laws. They are all good citizens. Since no lawbreakers exist, no cops are needed to arrest people. Since no people are arrested no courts are needed. No judges, prosecutors, defendant lawyers, court clerks, computer database programmers to keep track of crimes, etc.. all these people are out of work. No police cars needed. So, car manufacturers make less sales. etc...

Although you may not like it, people create lots of work for others when they break the law.

The good citizen doesn't create any of these jobs. People starve because of the good citizen.

If you believe jobs are a good thing, then the only good citizen is a bad citizen.

The same argument for sick people, they create jobs for doctors, nurses, ambulance drivers, lab technicians, etc...the perfectly healthy citizen creates no jobs here again. The perfectly healthy citizen cause people to starve.

The only good citizen is the sick citizen.

Nope, self-defeating argument. Steee-rike one.

Counter-strike one.

Look at it this way. The government subsidizes illegal aliens more than they do working Americans. That's how those living spaces can be rented for so little, and that's how the illegals get food: government subsistence payments. But while Americans (like myself) have been paying into the system all these years, these illegals have not.

Sorry, the illegals don't get the subsidized food. That's why the Americans don't need to work. The citizens get the food stamps. So they don't have to go out and make that paycheck every day.

Massive disinformation. Steee-rike two.

Counter-strike two.

Oh, sure. Now I'm worried. After all, just look at what their leaving has done for poor Mexico... no, wait, the effect has been unnoticeable. Well, look at what the effect of massive illegal immigration has been to the US economy in general... oh, but we're much much worse off than we were before massive illegal immigration.

Remember, illegal immigration has been going on since America was founded. It's not a recent phenomena. There has never been an America without illegals. Every 7 years or so, the Government passes an "amnesty" law that makes all those illegals legal, at least those that have been here more than 7 years. America has been "growing on illegal immigration". That's why it's so prosperous, or was. It's only about 7 years ago that the US started this anti-immigration campaign, and the country started to fall.

America is like a car, "immigration" is the accelerator, and "taxation" is the break.

If you want the economy to go faster, you increase immigration and reduce the taxes.

If you want the economy to slow down, you increase the taxes and reduce the immigration.

Where do you think the economy is going in the future?

[by the way, these rules are all written and recorded in the US Constitution, for those who know how to read !]

Complete lack of reality. Steee-rike three! Yer out! Just like illegal immigrants in Alabama.

Counter-strike three. I'm back in, because I'm one of the very few people who know how things work.

You may have a point hidden somewhere in the America vs. China point, but that is irrelevant..
TheRedneck

Not so irrelevant as you think. The united states still exports something of value. It's called "education". People from all around the world come to the United States to learn how to do things, and make things, and run things. So, China is still willing to "pay" for that "education", by loaning the US the money. However, China has been making lots of noise about this, they want the US to teach them what they know and leave the knowledge in Chinese hands. They want to "own" the "knowhow" that they "know" "how" to do. I guess, only a war can settle that one.