Undergound Dulce Base: what evidence would look like.

A number ATSers continue to be enthusiastic about the idea that there is an underground military base outside of Dulce, New Mexico. The claim is that this "Dulce Base" is an interface for human/alien relations. The stories of it paint the picture of a multi-story compound, camouflaged at the surface, with elaborate security. Some CTers claim that Dulce is the entrance to a vast underground high-speed rail system that connects Los Alamos Labs with Area 51, etc.

I am personally familiar with the Dulce area, having spent a lot of time in Northern New Mexico, from Taos to the San Juan River. Any of the following would be great evidence. Yet none of it exists:

1. Air and Exhaust Vents
Humans, if not aliens, need air. Since carbon dioxide is heavier than fresh air, the base must have a massive air conditioning plant. Unless several hundred employees are walking around wearing scuba gear, air will have to constantly forced in, and forced out. I've never seen any evidence of industrial vents, and haven't seen any on google maps, either.

2. Electrical Power lines
To run air for the humans at the base, you'd need electricity. Some will argue that the military has a secret nuclear plant there. The problem with that idea is the lack of water up on the mesa, or pretty much anywhere else. And even then, you'd need some exhaust vents. Ok, maybe the power is wired in underground, from area 51, a thousand miles away. I'll get to that one in a bit.

3. Sewage Treatment
Maybe aliens don't poop, but humans sure as hell do. If you have more than about 25 people permanently on site, you'll need a lot more than a really robust septic tank. You'd need porta-potties, or to be dumping it into a nearby river or stream, which I doubt the Jicarrilla Apache would be very pleasant about, in the middle of their reservation.

4. Truck Traffic
The humans at the base would need stuff. Food. Toilet paper. Band-aids. Just look at any military base (above ground) near you. Multiple entrances, with trucks zooming in and out around the clock. And at area 51, for years there were twice daily flights from Las Vegas to bring worker-bees in and out of the base, even while the stealth bomber was being developed. Yet the Village of Dulce has fewer than 3500 people, and convoys of freight trucks would be instantly noticed by the locals, who as Native Americans are watchful of anglos busy in their neighborhood. They know were oil has been located faster than Wall Street does....

5. Tectonic Evidence
If there were underground powerlines, or an underground rail network, it would definitely show up in the work of the petro-geological community. The geologic landform known the Mancos Shale underlies much of the western US, and near the San Juan Basin, it carries oil, and is linked with major coal beds (which have already been located near Dulce). Echo-location of geologic forms (thumping) is the way the area is being mapped. Any void the size of even a moderate building would definitely be discovered by oil surveys. Yet there's no evidence so far. The same holds true for a "vast underground hypersonic rail network." And yet the reservation is already a leading producer of oil in the US...

6. The Jicarilla Apache Nation
So, do believers in the "dulce base" really believe that the Jicarilla are willing accomplices in hiding a secret alien base in the middle of a mesa that holds ceremonial importance for them? And all 3000 Apaches are keeping it mum? Or are they ignorant of what goes on in their own back yard?

I see now evidence to believe any of this but i would like to state that these secret bases could have advanced technologies that use different energy, air filtration and systems then what we currently use.

I am more of a speculative and logical type.

Instead of saying "Dulce is real", I prefer to consider it an example (fictional or not), of what the typical mega-deep-underground-base-complex would be akin to.

Also, for water they could use the groundwater table, also this would allow for underground secret nuclear power, alternatively they could tap into geo-thermal power sources.

Plus, for logistics such as supplies, you could ship everything in via the vast underground maglev network from other less conspicuous locations.

Also, you could use a massive ventilation system to actually have the vents come up somewhere many miles away from the actual location.

To block anyone from finding out it exists through seismic technology you would have to restrict their access to the location.

Dulce may just be a story, but I do think there is a high probability that there is a base or many bases very similar in scope to what this topic discusses.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


So you are saying a top secret government base that is supposed to deal with the most secretive things our government hides does not exist because they do not use out dated logistical methods? That is a terrible argument and you even answered one of the points you brought up. Why would they use trucks if they had an underground train? And if they really are working with aliens in there, you don't think that perhaps they are using technology we don't even know exists? Awesome investigative work there...

I dont think logistics are out of date as the whole world military and civilian are still using the same methods. It is not logical to have a top top top secret military installation and not have it fenced off and guarded as is A51 and any other airforce base. Forget what all the skeptics say about Dulce just start using your own common sense and have a methodical approach and work through all the little problems you would encounter to make the DUMB facility work without being detected as the OP is trying to do. well done OP good approach.

Perhaps there could be technologies to tackle all these problems that we dont know about but it still doesnt answer the question of why the facility would be located here and without being guarded or fenced off. Also if these new technologies were available then why do the daily trucks and Janet flights still go to and from A51, they could save so much time and money using the new technologies or maybe they are using the out of date to keep up the pretence?

reply to post by hxc408


Logistics is not out of date if humans are present at the base. Humans (and maybe aliens, for that matter) need to eat, to poop, and to have fresh cool air and water. And if they are American, they need electricity.

You missed my point about the "magic trains to whisk the evidence away." Trains leave a lot of traces in the environment. You might not have thought of this, but oil exploration teams have to map all the surface railroads before they start a seismic study. A passing train, due to its weight and metal, gives off a seismic and electromagnetic/guass signature. If the magical underground train is running on any kind of schedule ( like, "ever"), it would leave a signal picked up by oil hunters and seismologists. And there's a major seismological lab over at Jemez, so the scientific community most definitely is watching.

Then there's the geological problem of a massive tunnel running for hundreds of miles. On the one hand, you've got to burrow through a lot of varied features; the Jemez range is still active volcanically, and prone to earthquake. Then there are a number of shale and sands formations, which shift dangerously, even for a vertical gas well that's only a couple of feet wide, and an 1/2 a mile deep. Then you've got seepage. Those sands and shales are oil bearing; the oil will migrate along the outside of your casing, even if it never seeps into your tunnel.

Where did they dump all their dirt from the tunnel excavation? A set of tunnels to pretty much anywhere would be hundreds of miles long, and would be the equivalent of moving entire mountains. Where to dump the fill?

To make a short story long, you simply cannot have secret trains moving through secret tunnels, which would have to be thousands of miles long, to serve hundreds of humans, without leaving a trace. And saying "secret technology" is the same as saying "let's pretend;" there's no way to falsify the theory, so it's no longer an investigation.....

.....it's a flight of fancy.



Love your avatar, by the way. Talk about pinning the tail on the donkey!

Here is a counter argument for your points:

1. On UFO Hunters locals have spoken to have seen vents, they climbed up the Archuleta Mesa to see of there is anything, the local guy who was with them said he didnt want to go where there could be a possible entrance to it. He was scared and this was unhelpful, also I've heard there are Tribal Police - reasons to not wanto to go but still,. you may have not looked at the right place.

2. Electrical power could be all underground cables deep below and they could make connection with the nearest power planet or have one underground. Like ever heard of underground cables?

3. How about if they have dug so deep below, humans are on higher levels, sewer could be within the base and going somewhere deeper or better yet - they have ways to evaporate the organic waste, nothing so high tech? So ever seen underground facilities anywhere there would be some sewers coming ouf them? I dont think you are familiar with how sewers and underground facilities would work..

4. Ya right, cars and trucks will be moving on daily bases and disappearing in the mountains.. right. They dont even do it in Area51 where people come by planes, same would go for supplies? From the air?

5. No company would be allowed to reveal anything or come too close, so your argument is still invalid.

6. They may be working together, you don't know that for sure do you?

I think the exact show (UFO Hunters) mention in 1 revealed that there could be an underground facility under a hotel, no one ever noticed... so what makes you think therre could be no base there?

You may say 'UFO Hunters, you give that as an example' but the experiments they do are real and some things like going to that underground bunker under the hotel is useful and makes it clear your points are not a reason to not exist.

Here is a counter argument for your points:

1. On UFO Hunters locals have spoken to have seen vents, they climbed up the Archuleta Mesa to see of there is anything, the local guy who was with them said he didnt want to go where there could be a possible entrance to it. He was scared and this was unhelpful, also I've heard there are Tribal Police - reasons to not wanto to go but still,. you may have not looked at the right place.

Archuleta is huge, and vents could be anywhere. I would think the best way to locate vents would be by Infra-red photography, since the area is undeveloped. I haven't done this, but I think the Soviets would have, in days gone by, or the Chi-Coms, today. Certainly they cannot afford to let America have an "alien gap." So vents would be a very bad idea--they'd be the kind of proof conspiracy theorists and rival governments are looking for. But a plane with an IR camera could find any vents giving out exhaust, and settle the matter....

2. Electrical power could be all underground cables deep below and they could make connection with the nearest power planet or have one underground. Like ever heard of underground cables?

Well, buried cables above 10kv have to be sheathed in rigid pipe, which is easy enough to detect. But for about 300 bucks plus shipping, you can get a gaussmeter, and detect any buried cables on your own: gaussmeter. A magnetometer will do the same thing.

The deeper question is, where are you going to bring the power in from? There's a generation plant in Farmington, and another north of Espanola, The Farmington one, I think it's called Navajo Dam, is the closer, but you'd have to lay it up and down mountainsides, or else go miles under the earth in places. Again, that kind of massive rock displacement would have been noticed by greedy oil explorers, even 40 years ago.

3. How about if they have dug so deep below, humans are on higher levels, sewer could be within the base and going somewhere deeper or better yet - they have ways to evaporate the organic waste, nothing so high tech? So ever seen underground facilities anywhere there would be some sewers coming ouf them? I dont think you are familiar with how sewers and underground facilities would work..

Evaporation of waste, without using ponds, sounds like your going to need lots more electricity and air movement, which will increase you surface footprint. If every human there uses just one gallon per 8 hour shift, you've got a serious problem on your hands. But I don't know a lot about the civil engineering involved in that scale of waste management. Maybe you or someone else can enlighten me on how it can be done in secrecy on a massive scale.

4. Ya right, cars and trucks will be moving on daily bases and disappearing in the mountains.. right. They dont even do it in Area51 where people come by planes, same would go for supplies? From the air?

I'm not sure what you mean here. Dulce is rural new mexico, with only a few businesses on the main drag. There is a small airstrip owned by the Jicarilla Nation, but i would be surpised if you could land any cargo planes at that tiny civilian strip. And area 51 DOES have a front gate, and truck traffic. Years ago there was a thread on ATS, by someone who went there and got stopped by base security.

6. They may be working together, you don't know that for sure do you?

I cant see my original numbering, but I assume you mean the Jicarilla Apaches being in cahoots with the feds. You are right that i don't know for sure. But I will say that I have worked with Apaches, and fished in that area for over 20 years. I would say that they are not disposed to assisted the US government or its representatives in building on what is left of their tribal lands.

I think the exact show (UFO Hunters) mention in 1 revealed that there could be an underground facility under a hotel, no one ever noticed... so what makes you think therre could be no base there?

You may say 'UFO Hunters, you give that as an example' but the experiments they do are real and some things like going to that underground bunker under the hotel is useful and makes it clear your points are not a reason to not exist.

An abandoned fallout shelter in a hotel basement is not the same thing as a multi-story complex with hundreds of workers guarding alien ambassadors.

sorry, out of space to reply

reply to post by Imtor


Basically, my argument boils down to this:

If you have the technology and money to build, staff and operate a DUMB without leaving any vents, wires, plumbing or truck traffic in the middle of rural Indian lands, New Mexico....

Then why not just build it under downtown Albuquerque, and save all that money? Better yet, build it on the surface, at an existing military base.

The only reason area 51 is so remote is so they could test flying craft unseen. Dulce isn't used for that; so it could take place in any lab in any warehouse district in the US. why build it out in the middle of nowhere?

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
reply to post by Imtor

 

Basically, my argument boils down to this:

If you have the technology and money to build, staff and operate a DUMB without leaving any vents, wires, plumbing or truck traffic in the middle of rural Indian lands, New Mexico....

Then why not just build it under downtown Albuquerque, and save all that money? Better yet, build it on the surface, at an existing military base.

The only reason area 51 is so remote is so they could test flying craft unseen. Dulce isn't used for that; so it could take place in any lab in any warehouse district in the US. why build it out in the middle of nowhere?

Basically their argument boils down to this:

Evidence of a DUMB near Dulce is not required. Although, normally, extraordinary claims should require extraordinary evidence, they do not feel obligated to furnish any evidence. Their beliefs are exempt form the normal burden of proof required in a logical discussion, because central to their narrative are ET's, and ET's posses technology that would explain away any misgivings you have concerning their theory. And no, they do not feel obligated to first prove that ET's are involved, that's the premise you must accept.

I found this info posted by FreeedomCommander here in this thread interesting: Source
though this still isn't going to be the evidence you would like. Though if true I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one to have witnessed any of this.

Originally posted by FreedomCommander
reply to post by g60kg

 

Dulce Base, New Mexico Functions: Alien interface, Research of mind related functions.

Levels: 1-7 Known ·

Level 1 - garage for STREET MAINTENANCE. ·

Level 2 - garage for TRAINS, SHUTTLES, TUNNEL BORING MACHINES, AND DISC MAINTENANCE. ·

Level 3 - everyone is weighed, in the nude, then given a jump suit uniform. The weight of the person is put on a computer I.D. card each day. change in over three pounds requires a physical exam and X-ray. ·

Level 4 - Human research in the Occult areas - Auras - mental telepathy - hypnosis - astral traveling - etc. The technology is apparently here to allow them to know how to manipulate the Bioplasmic Body (of Man). In other works they can remove the ’soul’ of the human and turn it into a vessel to be used by another entity, in order to allow it to work and operate in the physical realm.. They can lower your heartbeat with Deep Sleep ’Delta Waves,’ induce a static shock, then reprogram, Via a Brain- Computer link. They can introduce data and programmed reactions into your Mind ·

Level 5 - Alien housing is on level 5. "...The room circular for the (electromagnetic) generator is nearly 200 feet diameter and covers the fifth and sixth levels (extreme west south wing). There (are) five entrances (plus an escape trap door on the sixth floor) on each floor. Each portal has double door. The security is severe. Armed guards patrol constantly, and in addition to weight sensitive areas there (are) hand print and eye print stations. Here, is the device that powers the transfer of atoms. ·

Level 6 - Level 6 is privately called ’Nightmare Hall’. It holds the genetic labs. Experiments done on fish, seals, birds, and mice that are vastly altered from their original, forms. There are multi- armed and multi-legged humans and several cages (and vats) of humanoid bat-like creatures up to 7-feet tall. Aliens have taught the humans a lot about genetics, things both useful and dangerous. ·

Level 7 - Humans in cages here, usually drugged or dazed, sometimes crying out for help. LEVEL #7 is the worst. Row after row of 1,000’s of humans & humanmixture remains in cold storage. Here too are embryos of humanoids in various stages of development. Also, many human children’s’ remains in storage vats. Who are (were) these people?" ·

Below Level 7 - Unknown other levels unexplored by humans. Aliens here. Exits into a vast underground cavern series, unexplored by humans, but suspected to be a huge alien culture area.

Tunnels to: Colorado Springs, Colorado Creed, Colorado Datil, N.M. Los Alamos. Page, Arizona Sandia Base Taos, N.M. Notes: The Dulce installation (upper levels) was originally constructed by the RAND corp. There are reported to be over 3000 cameras at various high-security locations. Deep sections of the Complex may CONNECT INTO (EXTENSIVE) NATURAL CAVERN SYSTEMS.

An underground Military Base/Laboratory in Dulce, New Mexico connects with the
underground network of tunnels which honeycombs our planet, and the lower levels of this
base are allegedly under the control of Inner Earth beings or Aliens. This base is connected to
Los Alamos research facilities via an underground "tube-shuttle." (It can be assumed that such
a shuttle way would be a straight-line construction. It should then be possible, by using maps
and some deduction, to determine the most likely location of this base, especially since the
general location is already known.) Beginning in 1947, a road was built near the Dulce Base,
under the cover of a lumber company. No lumber was ever hauled, and the road was later
destroyed. Navajo Dam is the Dulce Base’s main source of power, though a second source is
in El Vado (which is also another entrance). (Note: The above facts should also help to locate
the base.)

I googled Project Manequin and found this...

reply to post by relocator


This comes from text and none of it can be confirmed. I still think there is a base somewhere in that area of the Dulce town but I find it hard to believe all the stories - reptilians, aliens, humans in cages, Castello also talks about separating the 'soul' from the body done on one of the levels, do we even have souls, and like really? I

And nothing new has come out of it, so doubting all the stories regarding all these experiments, why didnt he just do something that no one will be able to supress and people will know it is true? Like that it sounds like a wonderful science fiction

Originally posted by relocator
I found this info posted by FreeedomCommander here in this thread interesting: Source

Your "source" is another post in another thread here at the ATS forum? Seriously?

I have not really looked to deeply into the whole Dulce Base and evidence for it but I came across the following website that may give some plausabiltiy of how the Dulce underground base could have been constructed.


Earthscraper

Originally posted by relocator. Navajo Dam is the Dulce Base’s main source of power,

There are only two hydro generators at Navajo Dam. All MW output from those generators is used by and owned by Farmington Electric Utility System (FEUS). There are no transmisson lines from Navajo Dam to Dulce. The Dulce area power is supplied by Northern Rio Arriba Electric Cooperative. There are no ties between the FEUS system and Northern Rio Arriba Electric Cooperative. I have personally patroled every mile of electrical line leaving Navajo Dam. I can assure you that there is absolutely NO electrical power supplied to Dulce for any bases, secret or otherwise. BTW, the hydro units at Navajo were not even installed until the early 90's.

Originally posted by Tindalos2013
I have not really looked to deeply into the whole Dulce Base and evidence for it but I came across the following website that may give some plausabiltiy of how the Dulce underground base could have been constructed.


Earthscraper

edit on 7-10-2011 by Tindalos2013 because: typo.

That's an artist's rendering of a concept.

What is it they are trying to accomplish with this particular base.

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
What is it they are trying to accomplish with this particular base.

It's whatever you want it to be. It's only limited by your imagination. Go ahead. Pile on.

reply to post by RKWWWW


Yeah Seriously this has been discussed and still no proof!!!

More interesting stuff if anyone likes a good read. Source

Originally posted by Wookie264
Here is a link to an interesting thread on the topic:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
This talks about how using seismic data, one can see that during a certain time period, the earthquakes in the Dulce area seem to line up in an oddly symmetrical way. Disregard his theory about the door and the triangle, because the "door in the mountain" is actually an error that appears every 2.2 miles in google earth.
Here is another interesting site in which you can make your own judgements about:
www.subversiveelement.com...

Source