UK Members.. How Would You Vote In a EU Referendum and Why?

Originally posted by EvanB

To set the standard we have to be in control of our own destiny and not have others who are so far apart from in terms of culture and language doing it for us.

Agreed Evan, but how to accomplish it, without doing it from within?

That's the dilemma.

To rephrase..how do we maintain our identity (for whatever reason, nationalistic, moralistic etc.) and maintain a respected voice in the shaping of the world for our children?

Surely you don't advocate a military option of control, of forcing respect for our views and opinions?

So how else then, if we're not to be intimately involved in the proceedings?

Be prepares for tax rises to pay pension to all the people whos have been frozen since leaving the UK to buy propertyin Spain Portugal italy etc when they are forced to sell and return to the UK as they will no longer have right of abode in those countires if the UK leaves the union.

Forget about weekend trips to france. Best apply for you visa fist. Same with cheap flights to spain on easyjet or Ryanair.

Be prepared to be treated like a visitor with the Americans too when trying to enter Germany or Ibiza.

be prepared for the influx of expat Brits working abroad for foreign companies. Now forced to return home permanently due to the same reason.

Be prepared for lower exports and harder business conditions, due to higher import duties and tariffs inposed on us by European countries.

Be prepared to pay more for gas, and oil piped through the EU to us from Russia. again higher import duties.

Be prepared to pay more for food, as the farmers will no longer get EU subsidy on food production quotas.

be prepared to pay more for raw materials for manufacturing, as we do not produce it ourselves any more, so are reliant on import. and this tax and duty.

Be prepared to forgo the right to move countries with free will when the whole of the UK gets sold o the lowest bidder. You'll be stuck with it.

Forget cheap labour, and reduced services, because everyone is chasing the high paid jobs, and the Poles won;t be around to build the houses.

There is a lot we can lose from leaving the EU. But if your just interested in keeping the pound. then great. other than that. I see it as cutting off your nose to spite your face.

reply to post by spikey


I refer you to this post

I cant help but think that the 40 million a day we plough into the eu would be better spent nvesting in our infrastructure and developing our high end manufacturing base. Also we should become more competitive with not being tied in eu red tape. We should be as business friendly as we can, making our own rules and making UK PLC brand synomynous with excellence

With the proper investment and motivation we can accomplish anything we set our mind too retaining our soveriengty and identity whilst still being a world player.

That

And the fact that the square mile of London controls 1/3 of the worlds debt AND is the gateway to eastern markets means we will do perfectly well thank you very much

reply to post by JakiusFogg


No more quotas

No more red tape

They need us more than we need them. Also it is in their tourism interests to keep good with us, Im sure passport control will not be a problem

reply to post by spikey


You advocate admirable sentiments and I tend to agree with you.

But we have to deal with the cold, harsh realities of the real world we live in and all it's faults.
Whether we like it or not we are all products of the environment and society we live in.

To achieve those admirable goals you mention requires deconstructing the current system and replacing it with something more representative and caring and far less corrupt and materialistic.
Quite a culture change indeed.

I don't dislike the French people, even though I can't help having a mistrust of them I still however take everyone as I find them, I do however dislike the French nation - and I recognise that we must move on from these petty differences etc.

We must however concentrate on putting our own house in order if we are to become a nation we can be truly proud of and as you say an innovator and something of a 'role model' which other nations look up to and seek to emulate.

In my opinion, for what it's worth, that will be impossible whilst we have the current party political parliamentary and electoral system in place and the self-serving, condescending elite who perpetuate it and use it to further their own agenda with little care or consideration for the wishes, well being or interests of the electorate they supposedly represent.

For the record, my original comment about The French was intended to be slightly 'tongue-in-cheeck'.

I would vote to opt-out of EU untill such time that the France-German Axis is history .

To have a new EU with more axes than just the Germans & French would actually be a good thing for ALL Europeans .

reply to post by JakiusFogg


I'm going to tackle your post bit by bit, if that's ok.

Mate, i would be more than happy to pay extra to support my fellow Briton, returning from overseas...most Britons would agree with that sentiment without qualms.

More happy paying that, than paying our own corrupt politicians and myriad arse licking quangos their 'fees' at any rate.

Those that are abroad and meet the qualifying residential criteria will stay, many have businesses that pay local taxes to the relevant country and in turn, whatever country it is, would not boot them out if they are paying their way.

Money is stronger than nationalism these days.

OK, so we wanna buy some fags or cheap plonk? We buy a £10 visa...the end result will be the same influx of cross channel ferry and Chunnel day trippers, after cheaper fags and booze from France...and they know it, so i really doubt they'd ever re-introduce visas, simply because of the amount they'd be scared of losing.

I do feel like a foreigner anyway, or did on the occasions i entered Ibiza. Although i have to admit, i've never been to Germany.

I've circumnavigated the Earth...flown E - W / N/ S across Canada, done the typical Euro holiday islands, travelled to Singapore, Egypt, N.Z, Fijian Islands, the USA, crossed the international dateline...and travelled a bit around my own country and...you know what mate?....i've even had occasion to feel like a foreigner in my own country, never mind any bleeding other 'proper' foreign country.

Colloquialism...Council directives, Government bans, you shall frigging NOT...you see mate?

And as for immigration to the USA proper (unless coming from Canada), that is a matter for itself! Germany or Ibiza would be a mild inconvenience at best in comparison!

If Russia wanted the UK market (and they most certainly DO want it), it would be conditional upon the pipeline 'host' nations that they protect their own 'interests' regarding supply. No worries about tax from the 'EU' pipeline to Britain. Besides, we could always stop flogging our own natural energy assets off to France at way below the going rate, and keep it all for ourselves and forego the 'nuclear sweeteners'.

If we were reliant on nobody but ourselves..we would manage and we would manage admirably!
There is NOTHING the British cannot overcome, engineer, or adapt to. In the face of adversity we are at our best.

Imports could bugger off. Stick them up their arses...oh they'd they'd miss us long before we missed them. We have the ingenuity, the brains and the will to manufacture anything we would need, and innovate locally for individual needs. The 'exporting nations' would be kissing our arses to allow them to trade with us again if we decided to turn our backs on them.

Being 'sold to the lowest bidder' would be moot. Our leaving the EU would bring about a necessary complete restructuring of general fiscal and local governmental spending rounds, and approaches to nationwide local services would be restructured in kind. The 'free market', where foreign headed companies getting by on loophole breaks, bidding lowest with their corporate muscle would no longer apply...at least in respect of the EU countries.

A return to IN house staffing will ensue, and we'd be better off for it in my opinion, even if we stayed in the EU or went even further along an integration path.

If we're all in 'suspension' and survival mode, the 'Polish transient workforce' won't be of help to us anyway, only a hindrance (sorry Poles). There will be people willing to work for what the job provides, and do what is necessary at whatever the offered remuneration in times of need...that is a given.

You're right, there IS a lot to be lost from missing opportunities 'linked' to the EU, and those opportunities are not limited to the everyday and frankly, easily surmountable bullet points you raise in your post...but rather a bigger issue...a MUCH bigger issue.

One of much greater importance than being able to fly on an Easy jet analogue and buy cheap baccy or booze. Or worrying how on Earth we'd manage with millions of acres of arable crop growing land going begging...we'd survive and we'd survive better than most would think.

But there's much bigger fish to fry, and if we're all competing for those fish, i'd prefer we as a nation were invoved in the casting of the net...I THINK!

Please don't mistake my indecisiveness for lilly livered capitulation or wishy washy feelings about my country, i have none where my fellows are concerned, i do have doubts for the best course of action as a whole, and frankly, mealy mouthed political flag waving and historical hearkening isn't going to influence or change that.

The future is now, we set it today. Our decisions are going to impact our kids.

It's not weak to acknowledge you are unconvinced either way..quite the opposite in fact.

reply to post by peacefulwarrior3

You lack experience...but you have potential mate!

How can we consider ourselves to be good people when others are dying of hunger.

Precisely.

Is it good of us to take care of the human beings fortunate enough to have been birthed in our border confines?

Or is it a nobler, more British thing to do to look after those in immediate peril, regardless of opportune birth, at the expense of our own prosperity or advancement among our peers?
We know the answer, it's blatantly obvious, but it's not really germane (in my humble opinion) to the question of membership of the British populace to a seemingly (and seemingly increasing) autocratic or dystopian nightmarish super-federal state of Europe, where simply weights and measures related indignities are a fond and nostalgic memory in the British mind, tinged with pulses of misunderstood melancholy!

You seem like a good heart.

I don't say you 'have' a good heart..we all change. Perhaps you will change too.

Blimey, that sounded patronising, it wasn't meant to sound so. (it was meant to sound deep, but failed miserably)

You seem to be of the same opinion as i..but is a greater integration the key to preventing the regular, if intermittent mass die offs of human populations? Or is isolation?

reply to post by Freeborn


I know Freeborn (about the French).

Let's say i agree with your thinking, and to be frank, to a large extent i do...what are we to do in your ideal?

From this point onwards, where shall we as a nation be headed? (generally of course).

There's one thing about me that i shall take to the grave with me, and that is that i cannot stand liars..so rest assured my opinions may well be incorrect and have been in the past, but they will always be genuine and up front.

I expect the same from everyone i speak with.

As i'm sure you've gathered by now, i'm an idealist. As you point out, in a way we all have a finite opportunity to construct or help to build our inner versions of utopia, a short, a very short human lifetime with which to impress upon our fellows the importance of being earnest and to take the plunge and see how far the current takes us.

I hear you, especially loudly because i think the same things you're saying. I don't yet know though if you or indeed either of us are correct!

What shall we do for the best mate?

Isolationism we Britons CAN definitely handle, being on an Island has prepared us for this over millennia, but can we both handle it and prosper at the same time is at the heart of it. Are we going to be second division and not top of the league nation i wonder if we opt out?

Change is a bugger.

reply to post by spikey


How about getting rid of the liars?

Which is the whole political class..

Replaced by democracy.. REAL democracy where our representatives vote with the will of who they represent rather than a party line or bias?

reply to post by EvanB


I'd like nothing more than that. You'll get NO argument from me mate.

It's what we should have now, instead of indignantly debating here.

But, and considering the entrenched position of those liars and facsimiles of real representation, what exactly do we do to obtain it?

MSM is a lost cause...Internet, while useful for broadcasting, has little in the way of integrity or at least is wide open to agency usurpation.

I'm open to alternative ideas, but we have to have some ideas to work from.

Cheers, i'm off to bed.

I'd vote out!

I want us to have nothing to do with an anti UK, expensive, bloated, currupt, undemocratic parliament in which we have absolutely no say over how it's run.

Do you know who your Euro MP is? More to the point, does it matter?

Successive UK Governments have dragged us in deeper and deeper against the will of the people who would never agree to a loss of sovereignty - that's why we've never had a referendum, we'd vote no and all the previous Governments have known this. If they thought we'd have voted yes, we'd have had one.

So, I say yes to being trading partners (as did the electorate in 1975) but absolutely no to being a subservient state in the forthcoming United States of Europe.

Independence now!

Originally posted by EvanB
reply to post by nake13

 

I cant help but think that the 40 million a day we plough into the eu would be better spent investing in our infrastructure and developing our high end manufacturing base. Also we should become more competitive with not being tied in eu red tape. We should be as business friendly as we can, making our own rules and making UK PLC brand synomynous with excellence..

I quite agree with you,however,would you trust the present government to invest in our own manufacturing base should the money that we plough in to the EU become available after our withdrawal?Plus even without the bureacracy of the EU there is still far too much red tape to untangle in the UK as it is,especially for the Business sector.

The same question applies regarding the setting of our own rules would you trust Cameron with that level of decision making?

There is no doubt that UK PLC could indeed become synonomous with excellence,the fact that companies like Rolls Royce being owned by BMW and rover being owned by TaTa of India really needs to be addressed,I would strongly advocate their being nationalised if necessary to bring them back under UK control.,

The same question applies regarding the setting of our own rules would you trust Cameron with that level of decision making?

reply to post by nake13


I certainly do not!

But I DO trust the British people, thats why we need a new politics and a new paradigm in how we govern ourselves.

We need to get rid of 3 party politics and replace it with a house of representatives that take their cue's from regional assemblies who take their cue's from their local populace.. This way our representative does not have authority to vote for himself or party line but is given the will of his/her constituents via referendum thus majority rules his vote... True democracy.. No more interest groups or ego's.. This handing power to the individual citizen makes them engaged in their country and makes everyone raise their game.. The days of a dumbed down apathetic nation would be over.

reply to post by EvanB


And that's where our growing (slowly, but surely) little movement some of us have cobbled together shall come in!

Our biggest problem though is educating the "masses" that it is a viable alternative. People don't like change, mainly because they fear it.

On a personal note, the UK exiting the EU would be disasterous. I live in France and work in Germany. I am aboutto be transferrred back to France on a dormant German contract and therefore will pay into both the German and French system. If the UK exited, I would lose everything. I would have to give up my job and house, move back to Blighty and leave my woman behind. The only way around it, as I see, wou ld be to take French nationality, and I do not see hell freezing over anytime soon.

reply to post by TheLoneArcher


Not really. If we followed the Norwegian model of European relations, we could be a member of the single market through the European Economic Area and have residency and travelm rights through the Schengen Area.

Ironically, Norway joined in the same year the UK did. In that round of applications, France actually rejected the UK's application! Somehow, Norway managed to negotiate entry minus wholesale buggery by Brussels, whereas we bent over with the KY in hand.

reply to post by stumason


I hope that you are right. That would put my mind at rest. To be honest, I think the UK made a shrewd move to distance themselves as much as they have to date. The € seems to be going down the pan.

reply to post by TheLoneArcher


Those doomsday scenarios if we moved out of the eu treaty are just political scare stories for kids. Fact is we are in a very strong position to negotiate passport control as continental businesses will lose out too if free trade was stopped. Also the expat community bring jobs, investment and know how to their country of chosen residence so they would shoot themselves in the foot if they decided to be twunts.. Tourism too. They would lose a lot of tax revenue and business hence why we could set our own agenda thats in our own interests.

Failing that you could always move back to anywhere south of watford as they are all french there anyway

reply to post by EvanB


And give everything up here? LOL
And where would you come for you holidays if I was to move back to the UK?