Employment in America....To work or not to work?

In the myriad of posts relating to the current protests in NYC and around the nation, I've noticed several people stating that the lack of jobs to be found is a key factor in the free time these folks have. Now like many, I've been a little disconnected from the job market myself and have gone largely by the news headlines until recently.

What changed was adding an area related to this for a community portal site I run. I was amazed at the number and flow of job listings for my small area. I've also found it rather surprising in contrast to what I hear people right here in my community saying about how jobs simply can't be found. Well, judge for yourself. I've focused on New York City, since that is the topic of posts far and wide at the moment.

First, the official number. 8.3% is the Government 'unadjusted' number for the New York metro area as a whole. On the list of Metro areas that have numbers, NYC ranks #163 out of a list of 372.
Bureau of Labor Statistics - Aug 2011

That isn't a good number, as we all know. However, does that mean jobs cannot be found? Well let's take a look. Craigslist is what I'm feeding into my portal site for my community, so it ought to be good enough for an example here. So, are jobs simply not available for folks?

Job Listings - All Categories - Oct 3rd for NYC

I'd begun the process of exploring out to see how many listings this perfectly average day picked up for New York City. I stopped and called it enough at 15 pages. That is 1,500 job listings for JUST Monday, Oct 3rd and the pages kept going.

In fairness to the job hunters out there, many of these listings are obviously scams or junk jobs which take plenty of time but amount to nothing in pay. Flyer distributors was one listing this came to mind for. So that must be it. No REAL jobs in the listing, right?

Well, no. That isn't true either. For every junk job listing, I saw several more for such highly skilled and exciting positions such as 'Sandwich Artist" and "Armored Car Driver - No Experience Necessary". I saw many openings for Dishwashers and Floor Sweepers (Janitors). Other listings seem to be there for the taking if one lacks specific skills but makes up for it with tolerance and an open approach to ANY legal and safe work for a paycheck.

Many folks would seem to confuse the availability of work with the concept that work which they don't LIKE is work they CAN'T accept. That is fine, I guess....just don't tell me no jobs can be found.

No, I must conclude that what I am seeing here suggests as much a lack of willingness to work at whatever job (ANY job) is available as any actual shortage of work to be had. Scrubbing public toilets is terrible work, as I learned one summer long ago. However, it's work and it isn't a check from Uncle's handout machine.

When those jobs are sitting on waiting lists....well, then we have a true situation where jobs cannot be found. In most of America, we're nowhere close to desperation at THAT level. In fact, we called it the Great Depression when that last happened.

That isn't to say some places aren't hurting BAD. The end of the Labor list up there is El Centro, California with a staggering 32.4 % unemployed. New York City would seem to have work though, if kids can drop their $1,000 laptops and multi-hundred dollar smart phones long enough to suck it up and get really filthy for an honest days pay.

Just my thoughts and outlook in a world gone mad, in so many ways. Am I alone in my thoughts?

Well, all I can really say is that you failed to consider the cost of living and the level of pay for some of the jobs you see on CL.

Let's compare apple to oranges shall we?

Apples - If you don't work and DECLARE very little income you can take advantage of 10- 30 different government programs ment to help those with litlle to no income. Not only do you not make enough to pay taxes but the government actually pays you money since you dont make enough and you took the time to tell them so. Obviously you are too poor to work - you have lot's of free time on your hands - Everybody wins.

Oranges - If you make enough to pay your bills, you make too much to qualify for any government programs. Since you make enough money to pay your bills, you get to pay taxes. Obviously your time is very valuable so the government would like to thank you for taking the time out of your week to pay them. If you don't take the time to inform the government that you make enough to pay your bills, you will be declared an enemy of the state.

Originally posted by illuminatislave
Well, all I can really say is that you failed to consider the cost of living and the level of pay for some of the jobs you see on CL.

Actually I did consider those issues and unless an employer is violating city, state and federal laws for New York City or it's surrounding environs, then minimum wage prevails. That was a very low dollar figure until recent years...but hey, I never said work was pleasant or ONE job would be sufficient.

There was a time in the not too distant past where people actually considered working two jobs to be a part of life when times were hard. Now, apparently, working ONE job that just plain sucks is pushing beyond the point folks are willing to consider.

The purpose for putting up the thread here wasn't about how many GOOD jobs were available. In fact, it's just the opposite point I tend to make here. I saw few jobs I'd sit here and think 'Wow..I wish I could dig ditches like that here! Where do I sign up??'.

However, if my choices were to take Uncle's handouts, or dig a ditch for an honest paycheck, I'll be buying a good pair of gloves to minimize the blisters. I personally detest the thought of living at the pleasure and mercy of a Government I neither trust nor care to support beyond what I already do.

The silence on this subject when approached from this angle makes me feel mighty lonely by not seeing Uncle Sam's handout express as my personal source of salvation. When the majority are thinking in those terms and readily taking those handouts, the United States is no more. It's a mathematical certainty no protest can make better and no progressive ideas can escape. It just doesn't have to be that way.

Why would people work minimum wage when you can not work and get free food, free housing and free healthcare?

If your a woman with a child this scenario is basically guaranteed.

It's sick, twisted and wrong but it's available.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I suppose what you are saying is possible...however, I had utilized CL a few weeks ago for job opportunities. There were quite a few that looked really good. They were for doctor office positions mostly. I replied to many of them. Guess what? EVERY damn one of them was a scam. I got constant emails telling me I had to sign into facebook to look over their page, or I had to go to a link to fill out a required credit check. I was pretty pissed off.

So even if the ad looks authentic, it's really hard to say how many actually are.

Edit to add: The other thing that really bugs me, is now these creeps have my resume with all my information
That's a bit unnerving. Although let them try and use it to get some kind of loan or something - GOOD LUCK!

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I have to say that your research indicates that there is work. It now becomes a question of sustainability. Here's a scenario for you. I have worked for the same company for 12 years and made a pretty decent living. The economy hits the skids and I get laid off. Months later the corporation that I worked for goes out of business (due to a poor economy). Now I have to try to find a job. I have a mortgage and a car payments and a host of other payments that were taken on when my income was at a certain level. 12 years with the same company seems like a fair amount of time to make reasonable assumptions about my income level...right? There are no jobs...there is work. In fact what IS available for work will cause me to lose everything that I have worked for and now I will clearly be part of a system that keeps me in need. There are NO jobs...there is work. It is very simple math for me and many others like me. BTW...I have worked my ass off since I was 14 and I am not afraid to shovel sh%* for a living...FOR A LIVING. The problem is way more complex than just looking in on Craigslist want ads. Where I live...where I have a mortgage, this is what craigslist has to offer today. By no means do I live in a remote area. Jobs for Oct. 3 2011...76 postings...26 scams...3 legitimate medical field positions....1 hairdresser/stylist...21 sell from home positions (commission only)...and approx. 25 jobs out of my area but nonetheless listed here. This is a problem.

Originally posted by summer5
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I suppose what you are saying is possible...however, I had utilized CL a few weeks ago for job opportunities. There were quite a few that looked really good. They were for doctor office positions mostly. I replied to many of them. Guess what? EVERY damn one of them was a scam. I got constant emails telling me I had to sign into facebook to look over their page, or I had to go to a link to fill out a required credit check. I was pretty pissed off.

So even if the ad looks authentic, it's really hard to say how many actually are.

I remember when I was on my last job hunt last year, I had sifted through a boatload of scammers, one guy I tracked right to some kind of internet cafe in Nigeria.
.

i have been at my current job for over 6 years...i found it on Craigslist... it is really very easy to find a job these days...i agree OP the good jobs are few and far between, but there are plenty of jobs out there... i remember working in cotton fields as a early teenager. i have had some really disgusting jobs in the past. when society allows people to take advantage of a system that they do not support, then that system breaks down.

i drive down "main st." every day, there are help wanted signs in a lot of businesses

Originally posted by litterbaux
Why would people work minimum wage when you can not work and get free food, free housing and free healthcare?

If your a woman with a child this scenario is basically guaranteed.

It's sick, twisted and wrong but it's available.

edit on 3-10-2011 by litterbaux because: Edit: Public schools failed (spelling)

I have heard a lot of people say similar things. I use to say that people had babies to stay on welfare. But I can tell you that while I have been going through a difficult time, there is no "housing help" available to anyone. They have waiting lists many years long. And many places the lists are closed for the next few years because they have given out all their "vouchers". So to say that you can get free housing (unless you are already on the program) is not accurate.

Free food, well maybe they will give you some food stamp money - but I assure you its not enough to sustain you through out the month.

I am out of work, trying to find work, raising 5 children on my own. My ex is out of work up north and there is nothing coming in. I would rather work a minimum wage job than have to be involved in the "system". It's not like they pay your bills, gas, insurance, electric, toilet paper bills...something is better than nothing, but the something you get just doesn't cut it.

reply to post by MightyQuincunx


I like this post. Well done. We have a lot of similarities in the way of which we live our lives. I also started working at age 14 (busboy). I also have held my current job for 12 years. It gets creepy here, I also have my bills that need to get paid that a minimum wage job just couldn't cover, I completely feel how you feel.

This is what I did to alleviate that pressure you must be feeling. I stopped contributing to 401K, I'm now putting that extra cash on my mortgage payment. I paid off my loans (i'm loan free now! Except my mortgage). I'm slowly learning to live a little more frugal. I quit smoking on 4th of July and I'm spending more evenings in rather than out.

I'm not saying this is a solution if you're not employed, if you have a job it might be time to make some changes so the adjustment is easier later.

Doom and gloom aside, you will feel better this way rather than walking around worrying all the time =).

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by illuminatislave
Well, all I can really say is that you failed to consider the cost of living and the level of pay for some of the jobs you see on CL.

Actually I did consider those issues and unless an employer is violating city, state and federal laws for New York City or it's surrounding environs, then minimum wage prevails. That was a very low dollar figure until recent years...but hey, I never said work was pleasant or ONE job would be sufficient.

There was a time in the not too distant past where people actually considered working two jobs to be a part of life when times were hard. Now, apparently, working ONE job that just plain sucks is pushing beyond the point folks are willing to consider.

The purpose for putting up the thread here wasn't about how many GOOD jobs were available. In fact, it's just the opposite point I tend to make here. I saw few jobs I'd sit here and think 'Wow..I wish I could dig ditches like that here! Where do I sign up??'.

However, if my choices were to take Uncle's handouts, or dig a ditch for an honest paycheck, I'll be buying a good pair of gloves to minimize the blisters. I personally detest the thought of living at the pleasure and mercy of a Government I neither trust nor care to support beyond what I already do.

The silence on this subject when approached from this angle makes me feel mighty lonely by not seeing Uncle Sam's handout express as my personal source of salvation.

When the majority are thinking in those terms and readily taking those handouts, the United States is no more. It's a mathematical certainty no protest can make better and no progressive ideas can escape. It just doesn't have to be that way.

edit on 3-10-2011 by Wrabbit2000 because: Correction and added thought..

I'm not saying that a person shouldn't have to get their hands dirty if it means survival, but do you seriously think that someone could survive in NYC working two minimum wage jobs? The situation is beyond terrible, before you were able to find work and not find yourself in poverty, now you could be working two jobs and it still won't cut it. I don't know why you seem to believe that unemployment or other forms of assistance are substantial enough for most honest people to get a free ride off of.

If times were robust with opportunity, I'd agree that 'taking Uncle Sam's handouts' isn't desirable. But right now? If you're working for crap wages it doesn't matter, you're not going to have enough to barely cover your living expenses(rent, food, utilities etc..) and that doesn't include if you have a family or not. I don't like to see people sleeping in cars with kids, so if they have to accept some assistance while trying to find work, so be it.

.

reply to post by summer5


By no means what I said is a cookie cutter simulation of every woman's life. The state takes care of welfare.

Story time!

I dated a girl a few years ago and she got 386 dollars per month for food. She was a single mother with one child. When we were dating she would buy "dinners" and cook them at my house. I'll be honest, when you know it's being bought on the welfare card and you're eating T-bone steaks, it felt wrong at first. I'm no saint tho so after the first few times (hehe) I finally figured that its my tax money paying for that and getting some kind of reimbursement is ok. I know, I'm a terrible person. She had to pay 50 dollars a month for her apartment, which was pretty much a hotel.

You can call me jaded or whatnot but i've seen the system abused first hand.

Originally posted by litterbaux
reply to post by summer5

 

You can call me jaded or whatnot but i've seen the system abused first hand.

And I agree 100% with your last statement. What pisses me off is when you have women on the entire system, food, housing, money, all the assistance you can imagine - and they are driving brand new cars. WTF?! I just don't understand it. It's abused by so many. And yet there are many who really need the assistance (more than those who are already on it) and they don't get sh*t.

reply to post by summer5


I have no idea. The only way to really stop it is to have some kind of time limit so people can't make this a way of life.

How we can make that happen is out of my hands, I'm too busy working and paying for this crap.

Originally posted by litterbaux
reply to post by summer5

 

I have no idea. The only way to really stop it is to have some kind of time limit so people can't make this a way of life.

How we can make that happen is out of my hands, I'm too busy working and paying for this crap.

That supposedly did happen when Clinton came out with work to welfare they are supposed to attend job training and they are supposed to have a limit, but the real ghetto queens still found ways around it. I know a few myself they make me wanna punch them in the face.

Now on Topic, Does the OP honestly think four minimum wage jobs would pay for anything other than in the ghetto to live in NYC? (Honestly you couldn't PAY ME to live there, but some people do and with that comes like about 100x's more rent and utilities than what I pay where I am at). And I would not work 2 minimum wage jobs to make ends meet here. No way, I am not attending college to work for minimum wage. When people stop getting a return on their educational investments, WTH should we do lay down and make like a doormat? Oh no to hell with that. I paid dearly for my education, I want a damn liveable wage! Screw all that BS take what you can get mantra, or else pretty soon we are china and our kids are back in factories!

IMO, most employers offering decent jobs do not have to advertise...much less on Craigslist. Good jobs will get filled, mainly by people who contact the employer outright. So judging by job offerings on Craigslist will never be a valid gauge to measure what you are attempting to measure.

And I don't know why people think that others can get everything they want for free. It doesn't work that way, and even with government help, I doubt that many are living a life of luxury. I live in an area that was always abundant in good jobs, and in my area even the real estate crash didn't affect much at all.

Yet there are no decent jobs to be found here either. I know skilled people and people with degrees, all of which are willing to work, yet they cannot find anything. So saying that the jobs are there, or people would rather get stuff for free, is just not true in most of the cases.

reply to post by ldyserenity


Don't get angry at us, get angry at the companies that send their factories to china because the labor there saves them a few dollars.

I completely agree with you here. We have spent a lot of money and time earning degree's and right as we graduate the jobs get shipped to foreign countries. It sucks. You didn't pay 600 dollars for a book to scrub toilets for 7.25 an hour.

You have every right to be pissed. You must understand who to be pissed at tho, don't be pissed at me or your fellow american.

Originally posted by ldyserenity

Originally posted by litterbaux
reply to post by summer5

 

I have no idea. The only way to really stop it is to have some kind of time limit so people can't make this a way of life.

How we can make that happen is out of my hands, I'm too busy working and paying for this crap.

That supposedly did happen when Clinton came out with work to welfare they are supposed to attend job training and they are supposed to have a limit, but the real ghetto queens still found ways around it. I know a few myself they make me wanna punch them in the face.

Now on Topic, Does the OP honestly think four minimum wage jobs would pay for anything other than in the ghetto to live in NYC? (Honestly you couldn't PAY ME to live there, but some people do and with that comes like about 100x's more rent and utilities than what I pay where I am at). And I would not work 2 minimum wage jobs to make ends meet here. No way, I am not attending college to work for minimum wage. When people stop getting a return on their educational investments, WTH should we do lay down and make like a doormat? Oh no to hell with that. I paid dearly for my education, I want a damn liveable wage! Screw all that BS take what you can get mantra, or else pretty soon we are china and our kids are back in factories!

Sometimes I wonder if the people that say that believe in the take what you can get ideal have actually invested into their education....

There's a reason why people are pissed off right now.

Originally posted by litterbaux
reply to post by ldyserenity

 

Don't get angry at us, get angry at the companies that send their factories to china because the labor there saves them a few dollars.

I completely agree with you here. We have spent a lot of money and time earning degree's and right as we graduate the jobs get shipped to foreign countries. It sucks. You didn't pay 600 dollars for a book to scrub toilets for 7.25 an hour.

You have every right to be pissed. You must understand who to be pissed at tho, don't be pissed at me or your fellow american.

Oh only the first half is a reply to you the rest was for the "Corporations" who think we should take that Mcdonald's job to make our way through life...no I am 39 my kids should be working mcd's not me! LOL!!!
I just don't see how the OP is getting that we should just keep working more and more and stfu no, we should not stfu, or like I said we will be China! I'd rather be penniless and lose everything then giving in to the crappy corporations. At this point I won't need to worry about it any more, they just keep digging their holes deeper and it's going to collapse on them. Everything points to a great big wake up call for these corporations pretty darn soon and after the Koch brothers incident I am pretty sure when all that comes out to light in the courts all hell is going to break loose.