Some are damned to hell from the beginning?

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13
and who is going to hell.

Why were the damned born than?

Not quite that way. God exists outside of time. All points are now. So even as someone is born, their choices are made. But if they are not born at all, their choices are not made at all, so it's pointless to stop it.

I don't know, why not ask God.

Oh...wait...

Please provide the whole context for discussion:
May have been referring to a single person or tribe. Not saying everyone saved is saved from the begining.
May not have been referring to heaven or hell, but some other form of salvation("Freeing his people" for example).

If it does turn out he was saying something along the lines of that he's decided where everyone will end up right when they're born, you could go with the omniscience explanation, and says he already knows what decisions and actions the individual will make.

Not that I believe in the book in the first place though, if that makes my thoughts on interpretation invalid. In my studies of the book, I've also seen no reason to assume it meant to say there was a fiery hell(Or maybe more accurate to say that Hell never meant anything like the modern meaning) to be damned to as well, which would completely change the interpretation of this specific scripture. Kinda irrelevant, just saying I'm seeing it from a different angle.

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel
Not quite that way. God exists outside of time. All points are now. So even as someone is born, their choices are made. But if they are not born at all, their choices are not made at all, so it's pointless to stop it.

Correct, God exists outside of the space-time dimension, He sees "the end from the beginning". That's how He "authenticates" His message to us. Predictive prophecy.

reply to post by dudeguyman
Context of the verses as well as an awareness of the original language of the writings and historical setting for the groups involved is instructive.

The thessalonicans were one of the first groups to be converted to the gospel (hence some other translations rendering this as "the firstfruits"), and as the rest of this and the following verses clarify, they were chosen for their acceptance of the gospel and their sanctification - choices that people make as a result of free will.

It sounds like you're trying to spin this around and make it into an argument against free will and people choosing their own fates (and yes, god happens to know in advance what fate we will choose for ourselves given his perspective and intimate knowledge of us, as well as standing outside time to see the end anyway), so if that's the discussion you'd actually like to have, please clarify that directly and we can address it.

However, arguing that people don't actually have freewill somehow when every choice lies right there in your own hands for you to weigh tends to be a losing proposition. On a side note, I thought it was only christians and creationists who were supposed to cherry-pick quotes and sources to their benefit?

Be well.

Originally posted by dudeguyman
"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13
and who is going to hell.

Why were the damned born than?

edit on 1-10-2011 by dudeguyman because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-10-2011 by dudeguyman because: (no reason given)

Who is damned my friend?

That says you were chosen to salvation.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by dudeguyman
"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13
and who is going to hell.
Why were the damned born than?

Paul in this letter to the Thessalonians is giving moral support to people being persecuted, imprisoned or killed for accepting Christianity in the face of the evil Jews who could not tolerate people who represented a religion who could possibly lure other people away from worshiping their religion.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel
Not quite that way. God exists outside of time. All points are now. So even as someone is born, their choices are made. But if they are not born at all, their choices are not made at all, so it's pointless to stop it.

Correct, God exists outside of the space-time dimension, He sees "the end from the beginning". That's how He "authenticates" His message to us. Predictive prophecy.

From a rational perspective it's reasonable to presume the existence of time inside comos and the absence of time (as we understand it) 'outside' cosmos (i.e. extra-cosmically).

Because of the other components being present in cosmos, but not extra-cosmically, there's besides time e.g. such factors as causality to consider, and you either conveniently forgot to bring this in, or you are ignorant about it.

All these cosmic and mostly alleged extra-cosmic components 'meet' somewhere in a transition from one state to another, and presently we have next to no knowledge about the nature and mechanisms of this.

So while your introduction of a timeless 'god', which can flitter in and out of cosmos/extra-cosmos appears to be 'rational', it isn't rational at all. Regressed to its end, your argument eventually ends with the standard theist mumbo-jumbo of an 'omnipotent 'god' what done it'.

In any case the OP stated: ""God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation.", which has nothing to do with 'god' OBSERVING what cosmic individuals choose and then consequently react on it.

Another post of tupsy-turvy logic, semantically pseudo-proving the predetermined answer.

reply to post by bogomil


It appears like your Physics needs a refresher course. This isn't 1985 anymore.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by bogomil

 

It appears like your Physics needs a refresher course. This isn't 1985 anymore.

Any REAL science/logic reference-points you can recommend?

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by bogomil

 

It appears like your Physics needs a refresher course. This isn't 1985 anymore.

Any REAL science/logic reference-points you can recommend?

Ah yes!! The "Special Pleading" fallacy!! Apparently you don't remember a few posts just the other day where you were asked for a source for your ramblings and you called that a "debate tactic".

We're still waiting for your sources in the other thread.

You're a joke.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by bogomil

 

It appears like your Physics needs a refresher course. This isn't 1985 anymore.

Any REAL science/logic reference-points you can recommend?

Ah yes!! The "Special Pleading" fallacy!! Apparently you don't remember a few posts just the other day where you were asked for a source for your ramblings and you called that a "debate tactic".

We're still waiting for your sources in the other thread.

You're a joke.

Can you relate factually to this thread and give me a reference to some real science/logic, where I seem to have lost contact since 1985?

I'm not interested in character-analyses and debate-tactics.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by bogomil

 

It appears like your Physics needs a refresher course. This isn't 1985 anymore.

Any REAL science/logic reference-points you can recommend?

Ah yes!! The "Special Pleading" fallacy!! Apparently you don't remember a few posts just the other day where you were asked for a source for your ramblings and you called that a "debate tactic".

We're still waiting for your sources in the other thread.

You're a joke.

I'm not interested in character-analyses and debate-tactics.

And let's not forget your lack of interest in being shown to be a hypocrite as well as repeating the special pleading fallacy.

The only "debate tactic" worthy of a forum troll is mocking and ignoring.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by bogomil

 

It appears like your Physics needs a refresher course. This isn't 1985 anymore.

Any REAL science/logic reference-points you can recommend?

Ah yes!! The "Special Pleading" fallacy!! Apparently you don't remember a few posts just the other day where you were asked for a source for your ramblings and you called that a "debate tactic".

We're still waiting for your sources in the other thread.

You're a joke.

I'm not interested in character-analyses and debate-tactics.

And let's not forget your lack of interest in being shown to be a hypocrite as well as repeating the special pleading fallacy.

The only "debate tactic" worthy of a forum troll is mocking and ignoring.

Here's a thread suitable for what you express above .......www.abovetopsecret.com...

On this thread I would like to stay with factual topic-relevance.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Correct, God exists outside of the space-time dimension, He sees "the end from the beginning". That's how He "authenticates" His message to us. Predictive prophecy.

Can you give some examples of this predictive prophecy? I know you have one you promote, made up after the fact, and a shear fabrication from something never meant to be a prediction at all, but a demonstration of something that was going on at the time and making allusions to similar past situations. The inventor of this scheme ignored every bit of real meaning to the verses and concocted a formula from it to show how it predicted the date of the founding of the modern Zionist state occupying Palestine.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Can you give some examples of this predictive prophecy?

Are u serious? Are you suggesting you're unfamiliar with the claim that there is predictive prophecy in the scriptures. The entire book is prophetic.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Are u serious?

What I see is self fulfilling prophecy. Everything that supposedly predicts something was written after those things happened.

yes this is correct, Paul understood GOD enough to know he alone knows begging to end and that not all shal believe the truth. when GOD spoke to Jeremiah he told him that since he was in his mothers womb he had chosen him to be a prophet. another verse says HE chose US before he created the heavens and the earth. as long as you are alive you can be saved if you truly believe in JESUS CHRIST and his teachings, of course if you did he knew that already.

Originally posted by SOILDERSUNITEDFORCHRIST
yes this is correct, Paul understood GOD enough to know he alone knows begging to end and that not all shal believe the truth. when GOD spoke to Jeremiah he told him that since he was in his mothers womb he had chosen him to be a prophet. another verse says HE chose US before he created the heavens and the earth. as long as you are alive you can be saved if you truly believe in JESUS CHRIST and his teachings, of course if you did he knew that already.

This is just the standard circle-argument: "What's written here is true, because it's written here, that what's written here is true".

It's completely invalid outside this closed, selfcontained bubble.

And cooking up methodologies MEANT to 'prove' predetermined answers instead of looking at facts/information first just adds to the impression of circular argumentation.