Should the world(China, Russia, EU etc)conduct a preemptive strike against US before it get too dang

Originally posted by masterp


I don't see why you don't want to admit that US is the most harmful of all nations. Sure France ain't that innocent, but since the entire world is run by US (by your claims), isn't then the US responsible for the world's problems?

The examples are countless, really. The US

1) puts taxes on imported steal
Um yeah, and......how is that a bad thing? I wasnt aware protecting jobs in ones country was bad.

2) puts taxes on imported agricultural products; let the poor countries die!
Your point? We have farmers too, you know.
3) won't sign the Kyoto deal
So wont alot of other countries.

4) buys pollution percentage from smaller countries
Huh?
5) produces more than 50% of the world's weapons
Well, duh. Whats your point? If youd get back down to reality, weapons are a fact of life since man walked upright. We make them. So?
6) consumes more than 25% of the world's oil
We sure do. Considering the size of the US.......compared to other countries and economies. But we have so many other alternate sources as well. Soon, we will not need oil at all.
7) caused all major war activities in the last 30 years (vietnam, cyprus, iran-iraq, gulf war, bosnia, kosovo, iraq) and many others either directly or indirectly
We have? Oh my. You need to get out some. I wasnt aware we started Bosnia, Kosovo. I wasnt aware we started the first Gulf War, i was pretty sure saddam invaded Kuwait first. And lets see, Afghanistan was invaded by the Russians, and as far as I can see, there are so many wars that we had nothing to do with, especially in Africa. really, you need to get out more.
8) supports most dictatorships (pinoset, contras, saddam, indonesia, musaraf, greece 67-74, etc) and corrupted governments (saudi arabia, etc)
Ah, finally you get something right! yes we do. A serious problem that needs rectification.
9) 5% of its population has 90% of the world's wealth
Wrong. try again.
10) one of the few countries that won't accept the international court of Justice in Hage
Depends. Alot of other countries dont either. it depends on what issue is going before the court, and whose interests. We aint the only one. MANY countries, depending on the crime, wont either, if its in thier interests.
11) is the only country to have dropped an atomic weapon in war
So? Have we dropped one since? Seeing the situation at the time, despite the gruesome effects, it was alot better than the alternatives. And in case you havent heard, more people died in the conventional bombing of Drsden, much more horrid than Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
12) has more than 36 poor people (living under the minimum wage)
Boy, you really need to wake up. its no where near that. Only 12% of the population lives below the poverty line. Only certain groups or regions do you have poverty levels that high.
13) has the highest percentage of urban killings and rapes
Again, you have no clue what youre talking about. Obviously, you havent been to places in Africa, eastern Europe, and even in Asia.
14) has the largest amount of citizens with debts
Wrong. per capita is everything. learn percentage and relativity to population when spewing such fool things.
15) has the highest number of citizens in jails relative to its population
Yeah we do. Thats because we dont believe in letting scumbags run free. Full of a variety of people. We believe in responsibility.
16) has one of the highest percentages in school drop outs
So?
17) has one of the lowest standards of education
Yes, so? Overeducation is just as bad as undereducation. Its a problem, the system needs a good overhaul. But the fact it can still produce enough productive, intelligent people prepared for certain things shows it is not total ruin.
18) has one of the largest differences in capital per head amongst the world
yeah. its called variety and free enterprise. Forgive us if we dont believe in socialism. Those people who work more, try harder, should have more than those who cpontribute little. variety is the spice of life.
19) has armies in more than 120 countries worldwide
yes very unfortunate. Whats more unfortunate, is that many of those countries wanted us there in the first place, sadly.
20) is one of the few countries that has a law that allows the government to put in jail one person without any accusation
No, not one of the few. there are MANY coutnries that allow this. And this is a recent development. One that more than likely will get struck down soon. Unlike other countries, we can do that. And there are very few people who have been arrested by patriot Law.
21) has Guantanamo; violates global signed policies on human rights
Maybe. Thats open to interpretation. Very debatable.
22) demands 1 milion as deposit in order to participate in the elections
Yeah, theres a reason. So the ballots are clogged with a million idiots trying to run for election that have no clue.
23) has the highest number of TV channels
Oh no! How terrible! We have too much variety in media and entertainment! We should have only 4 "public (read state run and approved) channels!
24) has the highest number of school killings
I suggest YOU stop believing everything you hear.
25) the only country to have the privilege of kids passing through gun/metal detectors in schools
No, were not. You need to get yopur info from actual reliable sources.

Really, what's so great about your country? that you can work at McDonald's for 1 dollar per hour? that you can buy a car, a stereo, a TV and a computer? that your kids go to school? Well, guess what: all these things are available in most countries, more or less. Tell me one thing that you can do in your country and I can't do in any other country.
You have no clue, do you? You have never been here? And you call us ignorant? There are many things I can do here I couldnt do in other countries I visited.

Most of your scientists are foreigners; most of your athletes are blacks; most of your workers are blacks and Mexicans; most of your service men are blacks;etc etc
What a racist comments. Our athletes are black? I got news for you. Blacks are Americans too. We dont have a race here known as the American race. in case you havent heard. mexicans, Blacks, ect....Americans all descended from some immigrants, even the Native Americans came from Asia. Foreigners are Americans. This country was created by people coming here. And most of our servicemen are not black. But if they were, what would be so terrible about having many black servicemen? They are Americans who love thier country like everyone else.

This here goes to show you Americans arent the only bunch of brainwashed, ignorant sheeple who believe what thier govornments and media tell them. hell, I see it all the time. its kinda funny.

Jakomo, nice try, but I hardly dount youd speak for anyone in the world except the middle east. Youre entirely too irational and uninformed.

Well said

This guy has no clue what he is talking about.

Originally posted by The Crow

Russia is having trouble maintaining their nukes. If they start a war, you can bet they'll use 'em before they lose 'em

Are you sure? I know they've sometimes trouble maintaining their nukes, subs and cruisers but man that doesn't make them a lot weaker

[edit on 3-10-2004 by AtheiX]

Joshua says "A Strange Game, the only way to win.... is not to play."


"How about a nice game of Chess?"

wraith

Too... funny... My sides... are... splitting from... laughing so hard!!!

PUH-Leeeeeeeeeez! First of all, yes the US has defense satellites AND early warning radar systems scattered throughout the entire world. NORAD constanly monitors EVERYTHING that flies anywhere in the world; including birds. So a pre-emptive nuclear strike wouldn't really be pre-emptive, simply premature and STUPID!!! Our entire arsenal would be unleashed before a single warhead detonated in US airspace. This is called Mutual Assured Destruction, or MAD. In fact, let's play along for a minute, let's assume that somehow Russia, China and EU were able to launch a bio or chem attack against the US and THEN try to finish us off with nukes... Our early warning and detection systems would actually trigger themselves AFTER a single nuclear detonation is confirmed on US soil thus continuing MAD.

Let's pretend for a minute that China and Russia launched every single soldier that they had simultaneoulsy upon the US... We learned from the Japanese the importance of monitoring not only the skies, but the seas, and we would be well aware of this offensive days before it could even reach the US mainland. Our smart munitions, like cruise missiles, and our airforce would simply pick off the advancing ships like broken winged ducks on a small pond.

Ok, now let's be much more clandestine and pretend like China, Russia and EU could "Stealth" up on us and launch a suprise attack at or doorstep... Ok, hold on , I gotta get my laughter under control, once again systems in NORAD in keeping with the MAD strategy would autolaunch our arsenal the second a detonation in detected on US soil... but they couldn't "Stealth" up on us anyway. We have so many sonar, ultra-sonic, infrared and ultra-violet sensors scattered throughout the ocean that we would know who was coming from where hours before they would be in range.

So, you see, this is really some kind of moronic fantasy that could never take place. The reality is the the US will continue to be bitten by mosquitoes like terrorists over a protracted peiod of time. In fact, it's likely that eventually a terrorist may even sting us like a bee or bite us like a snake, but they will NEVER kill us. China, Russia and the EU KNOW that we are an ALLY to them; why would they betray that? They are reliant on our technology, our economy and our sense of brotherhood throughout the world... especially with other democracies along with out will to promote democracy where none exists.

Please keep in mind that the US has freed more poeples than any other nation in the history of the world. Why would our allies want to attack that?

technically, the `world` would never attack the United States. It`s impossible. It`s the dumbest thing I`ve ever read. Such war would destroy , would take the world, the whole planet, apart. No one would win. And a military action is impossible to happen, when it`s easier to conquer a country thru economical ways! What is the EURO ? isn`t it an alternative to the dollar? And as long as another Adolf Hitler didn`t appear on the face of this planet, we won`t have such great scale war.
But look... America barely survived to 9/11. And that was the action of a handful of men. Imagine what would happen if an army of 5.000 suicidal terrorists would be unleashed over the US, and the EU, or the world, of Pakistan would stop helpin` the american intelligence ?

The war of this millenium will not be of conventional facture.... I reccomend you people to read Tom Clancy`s books.

p.s : Kozmo, the US freed no one, in the conception of the `liberated` peoples... look in vietnam, in bosnia, in iraq, in afghanistan... since 1945, the end of WWII, America freed nobody.

[edit on 30/8/04 by Kapnobatai]

Any country that would be stupid enough to attack the US, would lose much much more than they can ever think about gaining.

What country has the financial support to have a war with the US?

What country has the people willing to support the spending of the billions of dollars it would take to go to war with the US, knowing you in return would be attacked to the fullest.


I mean, look from the American revolution to 9/11, people should know by now...the last thing you want to do is piss off the United States...

Why nobody thinks on what a war like this would do to the United States ? Except for some border issues with Mexico at the end of the XIXth century, America had no war on it`s land. Oh, yea, except the Independence war, and the Civil war. But those didn`t imply foreign troops on your territory... Please, people, think of what such a war would do to you, do not think of the other countries, because surely they won`t think of you....

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Originally posted by masterp


I don't see why you don't want to admit that US is the most harmful of all nations. Sure France ain't that innocent, but since the entire world is run by US (by your claims), isn't then the US responsible for the world's problems?

The examples are countless, really. The US

1) puts taxes on imported steal
Um yeah, and......how is that a bad thing? I wasnt aware protecting jobs in ones country was bad.

2) puts taxes on imported agricultural products; let the poor countries die!
Your point? We have farmers too, you know.
3) won't sign the Kyoto deal
So wont alot of other countries.

4) buys pollution percentage from smaller countries
Huh?
5) produces more than 50% of the world's weapons
Well, duh. Whats your point? If youd get back down to reality, weapons are a fact of life since man walked upright. We make them. So?
6) consumes more than 25% of the world's oil
We sure do. Considering the size of the US.......compared to other countries and economies. But we have so many other alternate sources as well. Soon, we will not need oil at all.
7) caused all major war activities in the last 30 years (vietnam, cyprus, iran-iraq, gulf war, bosnia, kosovo, iraq) and many others either directly or indirectly
We have? Oh my. You need to get out some. I wasnt aware we started Bosnia, Kosovo. I wasnt aware we started the first Gulf War, i was pretty sure saddam invaded Kuwait first. And lets see, Afghanistan was invaded by the Russians, and as far as I can see, there are so many wars that we had nothing to do with, especially in Africa. really, you need to get out more.
8) supports most dictatorships (pinoset, contras, saddam, indonesia, musaraf, greece 67-74, etc) and corrupted governments (saudi arabia, etc)
Ah, finally you get something right! yes we do. A serious problem that needs rectification.
9) 5% of its population has 90% of the world's wealth
Wrong. try again.
10) one of the few countries that won't accept the international court of Justice in Hage
Depends. Alot of other countries dont either. it depends on what issue is going before the court, and whose interests. We aint the only one. MANY countries, depending on the crime, wont either, if its in thier interests.
11) is the only country to have dropped an atomic weapon in war
So? Have we dropped one since? Seeing the situation at the time, despite the gruesome effects, it was alot better than the alternatives. And in case you havent heard, more people died in the conventional bombing of Drsden, much more horrid than Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
12) has more than 36 poor people (living under the minimum wage)
Boy, you really need to wake up. its no where near that. Only 12% of the population lives below the poverty line. Only certain groups or regions do you have poverty levels that high.
13) has the highest percentage of urban killings and rapes
Again, you have no clue what youre talking about. Obviously, you havent been to places in Africa, eastern Europe, and even in Asia.
14) has the largest amount of citizens with debts
Wrong. per capita is everything. learn percentage and relativity to population when spewing such fool things.
15) has the highest number of citizens in jails relative to its population
Yeah we do. Thats because we dont believe in letting scumbags run free. Full of a variety of people. We believe in responsibility.
16) has one of the highest percentages in school drop outs
So?
17) has one of the lowest standards of education
Yes, so? Overeducation is just as bad as undereducation. Its a problem, the system needs a good overhaul. But the fact it can still produce enough productive, intelligent people prepared for certain things shows it is not total ruin.
18) has one of the largest differences in capital per head amongst the world
yeah. its called variety and free enterprise. Forgive us if we dont believe in socialism. Those people who work more, try harder, should have more than those who cpontribute little. variety is the spice of life.
19) has armies in more than 120 countries worldwide
yes very unfortunate. Whats more unfortunate, is that many of those countries wanted us there in the first place, sadly.
20) is one of the few countries that has a law that allows the government to put in jail one person without any accusation
No, not one of the few. there are MANY coutnries that allow this. And this is a recent development. One that more than likely will get struck down soon. Unlike other countries, we can do that. And there are very few people who have been arrested by patriot Law.
21) has Guantanamo; violates global signed policies on human rights
Maybe. Thats open to interpretation. Very debatable.
22) demands 1 milion as deposit in order to participate in the elections
Yeah, theres a reason. So the ballots are clogged with a million idiots trying to run for election that have no clue.
23) has the highest number of TV channels
Oh no! How terrible! We have too much variety in media and entertainment! We should have only 4 "public (read state run and approved) channels!
24) has the highest number of school killings
I suggest YOU stop believing everything you hear.
25) the only country to have the privilege of kids passing through gun/metal detectors in schools
No, were not. You need to get yopur info from actual reliable sources.

Really, what's so great about your country? that you can work at McDonald's for 1 dollar per hour? that you can buy a car, a stereo, a TV and a computer? that your kids go to school? Well, guess what: all these things are available in most countries, more or less. Tell me one thing that you can do in your country and I can't do in any other country.
You have no clue, do you? You have never been here? And you call us ignorant? There are many things I can do here I couldnt do in other countries I visited.

Most of your scientists are foreigners; most of your athletes are blacks; most of your workers are blacks and Mexicans; most of your service men are blacks;etc etc
What a racist comments. Our athletes are black? I got news for you. Blacks are Americans too. We dont have a race here known as the American race. in case you havent heard. mexicans, Blacks, ect....Americans all descended from some immigrants, even the Native Americans came from Asia. Foreigners are Americans. This country was created by people coming here. And most of our servicemen are not black. But if they were, what would be so terrible about having many black servicemen? They are Americans who love thier country like everyone else.

OK... not sure who wrote the replies in bold text, but I'm going to reply to a few of them by the numbers.

1.) It's a bad thing because we villify the EU for doing the exact same thing, when it suits our politicians to make the US seem like the great defender of free trade, when behind the scenes they're as protectionist as any other country, because they're afraid of losing votes more than they are afraid of not sticking to their convictions and professed beliefs.

4.) "Huh"? The great american answer.

5.) It's not the production that's bad. It's the sales. It's called proliferation, and the US is the worlds number 1 offender for small arms proliferation. Small arms account for hundreds of times the amount of deaths WMD's have produced. See www.fas.org... for more information on this topic.

12.) I believe masterp meant 36 *million* people, which is the correct figure, according to the latest US Census Bureau statistics.

14.) Actually, this is not wrong. Masterp is not referring to external debt, which is best characterized in terms of amount of debt as a percentage of GDP. He is referring to internal debt. How many people in america actually own both their house, their car, and have all their medical and education debts paid up, with no credit card debt? Very, very few compared to the rest of the developed world.

15.) Scumbags? A great percentage of those in jail are there for non-violent drugs offenses. A more adept explanation of the US's staggeringly high amount of people imprisoned would be found in the following statement:

The huge and growing prison population in the US testifies to the unprecedented level of social inequality that constitutes the single most significant aspect of American society. Fantastic levels of wealth for a privileged elite go hand in hand with worsening economic insecurity for the broad masses, and chronic poverty for tens of millions of the most oppressed�the breeding grounds for petty crime, drug abuse and all of the other symptoms of a dysfunctional and diseased social order. This oligarchic social structure is increasingly maintained by means of repressive laws, police violence and racism.

www.wsws.org...

16.) "So"? 'Nuff said.

17.) Uh huh. War is peace, ignorance is freedom, and that flask is just for medicinal purposes. Overeducation... the US is faaaar from that. Face it, the education system here sucks, for whatever reasons.

18.) Sigh. Do you think the world is divided between the USSR and the USA? In the EU, Japan, and many other countries, guess what? You work hard... and you DO reap the fruits of your labors. America isn't the only country where social darwinism finds itself expressed through national economic policy.

19.) I believe a more adequate statement would be that many of these countries never wanted a need to have US troops placed in them in the first place.

21.) Well, I suppose this is open to debate... if you have never heard of the Constitution and have never actually read the Geneva Conventions or the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

24.) Well, if there's another country with more, I'd be interested to know which it is.


And finally, as for black athletes... most countries are justified in resenting the US for the prowess of its black athletes. Traditionally, sports are a forum where your celebrated heroes, the best of your clan, as it were, are entered into the arena to compete against someone elses best. How does it look to the world when we send a people just last century we didnt even consider free people, let alone americans, acting as if they've always been our favorite champs. The way it's seen, we just forcibly imported a bunch of winners, instead of "playing by the rules".

Peace out.

-koji K.

Originally posted by Kapnobatai
Why nobody thinks on what a war like this would do to the United States ? Except for some border issues with Mexico at the end of the XIXth century, America had no war on it`s land. Oh, yea, except the Independence war, and the Civil war. But those didn`t imply foreign troops on your territory... Please, people, think of what such a war would do to you, do not think of the other countries, because surely they won`t think of you....

Any war on US soil would be brief. America has excellent natural defense. Geography wise, it's not a good country to invade. North, south, and especially east, and west any invasion force would be seen and pretty much taken care of before they reach the US.

Originally posted by Kapnobatai
Why nobody thinks on what a war like this would do to the United States ? Except for some border issues with Mexico at the end of the XIXth century, America had no war on it`s land. Oh, yea, except the Independence war, and the Civil war. But those didn`t imply foreign troops on your territory... Please, people, think of what such a war would do to you, do not think of the other countries, because surely they won`t think of you....

What it would do to the United States...

It would fire up our war machine, thus firing up our economy!

Not to mention the simple fact that aside form our military, citizens of the United States have the right to bear arms, of which I have a few. Rest assured, anyone stupid enough to attempt to enter the US with the aim to militarily topple us would be met with devasting force... if they could even get close enough to actually land a force here.

This thread is stupid! Let's discuss things that could actually happen for pete's sake!

allow me this people!!!

either America never gets dealt with....or when it is dealt with God is the one who does it!!!

just read this!!! :

JER:

50:9 For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows [shall be] as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.

50:31 Behold, I [am] against thee, [O thou] most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time [that] I will visit thee.

50:41 Behold, a people shall come from the north, and a great nation, and many kings shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.

50:46 At the noise of the taking of Babylon the earth is moved, and the cry is heard among the nations.

51:8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.

51:13 O thou that dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, [and] the measure of thy covetousness.

51:14 The LORD of hosts hath sworn by himself, [saying], Surely I will fill thee with men, as with caterpillers; and they shall lift up a shout against thee.


Heavy heavy stuff people. And i know you all hate me...but thats cool.....im not doing this out of hatred..this is a warning from God in the bible...it is Gods own word about your nation.

If the countries mentioned wanted to stop the US because they
perceived it too dangerous, hardly any need to do anything so
drastic as a pre-emptive nuclear strike. Simply stop supporting it.
Don't purchase any more US government debt instruments and
initiate economic sanctions. The US no longer has sufficient
manufacturing capability to maintain an independent physical
economy. The countries mentioned could stop recognizing the
US dollar as a reserve currency. That would eliminate this countries
main export. Don't be surprised if something like this actually
happens.

Hey...

All I can say is...

If you feel froggy enough, then leap...

In other words " BRING IT ON"...


You want to do a strike , like was done on 9/11, then I pitty you...you will know HELL... like you have never known before...

Well, every empire comes down eventually. Rome, Britain, France,Russia etc. so it would be arrogant to think the same will not happen to US. Empires fall and new one rises, history will repeat itself. How and when the US will fall is still unknown, maybe from inside like Rome or maybe trough war.

Originally posted by mockan
If the countries mentioned wanted to stop the US because they
perceived it too dangerous, hardly any need to do anything so
drastic as a pre-emptive nuclear strike. Simply stop supporting it.
Don't purchase any more US government debt instruments and
initiate economic sanctions. The US no longer has sufficient
manufacturing capability to maintain an independent physical
economy. The countries mentioned could stop recognizing the
US dollar as a reserve currency. That would eliminate this countries
main export. Don't be surprised if something like this actually
happens.

Suply and demand dude -if there is a demand, then it will be built in our economy.

As for that fool trying to talk about how bad it would be for the US if it were invaded...

1) It won't happen. The US has too good of a sensor network - no large group of soldiers could get to the US without being detected and dealt with. Logistics alone would make a US invasion early impossable. But let's supose you could get the Ships/suplies to the states, then:

2) You have to get those soldiers on US soil without getting them all killed. Between the best airforce and best navy in the world, getting even 10% of these soldiers to the US mainland would be an accomplishment. But let's say you get the all. Then:

3) You have to deal with the US army/marines on the ground, supported by the US airforce. then:

4) You have to deal with the most armed nation in the world. By myself, I could arm 7 men with rifles and a pistol. There is almost (or is it over - I forget) a fire arm for every US citizen. And believe me, we - unlike most people - can actually shoot.

5) Huge Urban areas. You think Falluja (spl?) is bad? Try occupying NYC, LA, Dallas, Boston, Philly, DC, Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, New Orleans, Houston ect ect ect with a less advanced army.

Basically, it won't happen.

Originally posted by Samiralfey
Well, every empire comes down eventually. Rome, Britain, France,Russia etc. so it would be arrogant to think the same will not happen to US. Empires fall and new one rises, history will repeat itself. How and when the US will fall is still unknown, maybe from inside like Rome or maybe trough war.

It doesn't have to repeat itself.
Do you know WHY we are learning history at our schools now?
So that we don't repeat the mistakes that have been already made and know how to not make those mistakes by knowing what those mistakes were.

Originally posted by Samiralfey
Well, every empire comes down eventually. Rome, Britain, France,Russia etc. so it would be arrogant to think the same will not happen to US. Empires fall and new one rises, history will repeat itself. How and when the US will fall is still unknown, maybe from inside like Rome or maybe trough war.

One big difference between America and the other empires. America is more than a country. Its an Idea. Its a collective of different people from different lands who's culture and strengths become part of the collective body. No other country IMHO has the diversity of the United States. That is the main difference between the other that have fallen. We also have a huge level of globalism and the economies of the world are becoming more and more linked and the fall of one will precipitate the fall of the others.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Just try it.

Who exactly is going to invade? Russia? Please, they have trouble upkeeping aircraft and keeping their subs from sinking. The EU? England is our closest Ally, and we all know how willing to fight France is.

Booo to you

Russia still has a lot of nukes out of which not all are useless.
EU is not only France and England. It's also 23 other countries, of which e.g. Germany and Spain oppose USIraq policy though they are not powerful enough to fight the US alone

I'd think with as much as we import we'd be a terribly impractical target.

We're not just perceived as arrogant bullies. We're arrogant bullies with a decent amount of disposable income, even in tough times.