Some words about arguing about God

I realized this morning that arguing with people about the existence of God is vain, and really serves no purpose. I suppose I have always known this, but it just sunk in this morning. I believe in God, and that Christ is my lord and savior because of my personal experiences and through studying His word. I have realized, however, that no matter how hard I try to get a point across to someone about it, there is always the demand for proof His existence. I will be up front and honest that I don't have the physical proof that most are looking for, but I do know that I am a changed person because of Him and I know I could have never done it on my own. I suppose that is what faith is all about.
I keep thinking about Romans 12:2 that says "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. I will admit that I don't have all the answers but I know that someday everything will be revealed and we will all be able to understand the bigger picture. I do have to say I am sorry for criticizing others for their beliefs and what they do and have come the realization that I am no better than anyone else, although I do have a personal belief that I am better off, but that in no way should justify superiority over another person.

I realize that Jesus preached love and peace, and I strive everyday to try to follow his example, but I am only human, and I have human tendencies. I guess what I am trying to say is that last night I probably posted some judgemental and critical things about others, and I want to be the first to "man up" and take responsibility for my actions and say that I was wrong. Hate is wrong. There is only one that can truly judge others fairly and justly, and it is not me.

I do have something for the other christians out there when it comes to getting into arguments with those that don't believe. You can argue all day until you are blue in the face but until the time comes for them to understand, they will never get it what we believe. I am in no means putting down anyone for what they believe. Just remember this - 2 Timothy 2 14 - 18
14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.

and if they refuse to listen - then remember this:
Mathew 10: 11-20

11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

so to recap, I am sorry for my judgmental attitude, its just that I want everyone to experience what I have experienced, and to know the joy and peace I have. I am sorry for sounding hypocritical. I do realize now that it is not a good way to win converts, and for the christians out there, don't try to argue the point with someone, because it just makes the situation worse. If you tell them once, and they refuse, let it go, and pray for them. Anyway, I wish hope and peace to all of you, and thank you for all of the the things I learn on this site. Good day

What a beautiful insight my friend.

I prefer to look at Atheist's as proof that there is a God. As much as one tries to speak for God and say he is this or that, you will always have an Atheist there to tell you "There is no evidence for God".

No truth is greater than that.

Do not make graven images.
Do not have other Gods before me.
etc.

God is everything.

When you say THIS is God, he will send you an Atheist to confound you.

God Bless the Atheist for smashing false idols.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by Veritas1


A 'few' words. What would the long version be then?

You wrote:

["I realized this morning that arguing with people about the existence of God is vain, and really serves no purpose. I suppose I have always known this, but it just sunk in this morning. I believe in God, and that Christ is my lord and savior because of my personal experiences and through studying His word. I have realized, however, that no matter how hard I try to get a point across to someone about it, there is always the demand for proof His existence."]

Better late than never...For the rest of us (i.e. non-theists) this is called faith-or-not from an 'agnostic' or a 'gnostic' position.

Quote: ["I will be up front and honest that I don't have the physical proof that most are looking for, but I do know that I am a changed person because of Him and I know I could have never done it on my own. I suppose that is what faith is all about."]

So you are basically preaching a subjective message. Don't be surprised by having your preaching opposed on a public forum. Did you believe this forum is a pulpit?

Quote: ["I keep thinking about Romans 12:2...."]

Whereas I keep thinking about rational reasoning.

Quote: ["I realize that Jesus preached love and peace, and I strive everyday to try to follow his example, but I am only human, and I have human tendencies. I guess what I am trying to say is that last night I probably posted some judgemental and critical things about others, and I want to be the first to "man up" and take responsibility for my actions and say that I was wrong. Hate is wrong. There is only one that can truly judge others fairly and justly, and it is not me."]

That's the difference between pushing and offering. But obviously not completely as you...

Quote: ["I do have something for the other christians out there when it comes to getting into arguments with those that don't believe. You can argue all day until you are blue in the face but until the time comes for them to understand, they will never get it what we believe. I am in no means putting down anyone for what they believe. Just remember this - 2 Timothy 2 14 - 18"]

....still spiral around in circles about what ultimately is 'true' on self-proclaimed premises.

Quote: [" so to recap, I am sorry for my judgmental attitude, its just that I want everyone to experience what I have experienced, and to know the joy and peace I have."]

Good for you. There are also happy pastafarians though.

Quote: ["I am sorry for sounding hypocritical."]

I'm not nice now...I know. But what about hypocracy about being hypocritical?

Quote: ["I do realize now that it is not a good way to win converts, and for the christians out there, don't try to argue the point with someone, because it just makes the situation worse."]

There you go. The aim is to proselytize, and you've discovered your method is dysfunctional, so better change it. Total honesty would be non-conditional and intellectually honest communication with no smoked-screened agendas.

Quote: ["If you tell them once, and they refuse, let it go, and pray for them."]

Who has given you the right to pray on behalf of other people? Would you like someone to perform voodoo rituals for you without your consent?

its just that I want everyone to experience what I have experienced,

This is where christians go wrong, people do not like being preached too. Atheists in peticular will fight against being preached at, and attempts to convert them. Its good that your faith aids you in life, and I respect that. You should also respect the fact that athiests ect are content with they're views on the issue, and stop trying to save they're souls. This is probably tha main cause of friction between believers and non believers, and the reason why the argument becomes nasty a lot of the time.

Originally posted by IAMIAM
What a beautiful insight my friend.

I prefer to look at Atheist's as proof that there is a God. As much as one tries to speak for God and say he is this or that, you will always have an Atheist there to tell you "There is no evidence for God".

No truth is greater than that.

Do not make graven images.
Do not have other Gods before me.
etc.

God is everything.

When you say THIS is God, he will send you an Atheist to confound you.

God Bless the Atheist for smashing false idols.

With Love,

Your Brother

Hi friend,

I'll take you on your word.

Possibly 'god' is nothing (you remember my nuances of 'nothing?), and then it's bleeped wrong to call that 'god'.

Veritas1
thank you for this. I love respectful Christians. I so enjoy their company and encouragement in spiritual matters when they understand that it is God at work and not them.

And Iamiam. What a clear vision of Gods intentions for creating atheists. destroying the golden calves. If they only knew. God bless em.

reply to post by bogomil


I just said that I was wrong for being judgemental. My aim was not to convert anyone, and if you don't want me to pray for you, that is fine too. I had no ulterior motives, and I am NOT going to argue with. Peace and love to you my friend. have good day

reply to post by Veritas1


Bravo, well stated.

I have known this for some time now as you can not change the views of someone only God and their desire to find an answer to questions the world can not.

I have found that if they bring it up then you can state things about God.

I have found that you must stick to one point at a time as they will try to confuse by changing the subject or if you provide an excellent answer they then attack your character.

As a believer in Christ we must be careful not to use their tactics when defending our belief, and we are to be ready with an answer when questioned, the Bible tells us so.

May the Lord Jesus bless you with all the things you need.

Originally posted by Veritas1
reply to post by bogomil

 

I just said that I was wrong for being judgemental. My aim was not to convert anyone, and if you don't want me to pray for you, that is fine too. I had no ulterior motives, and I am NOT going to argue with. Peace and love to you my friend. have good day

edit on 28-9-2011 by Veritas1 because: (no reason given)

Actually I'm not a cynic, quite the contrary. Technically speaking I'm a philosophical scepticist using my own brand of humour to cut through the self-contained and self-righteous versions of missionary christianity.

Put very primitively: You preach (however sophistically disguised), someone else 'counter-preach'.

Originally posted by ACTS 2:38
reply to post by Veritas1

 

Bravo, well stated.

I have known this for some time now as you can not change the views of someone only God and their desire to find an answer to questions the world can not.

I have found that if they bring it up then you can state things about God.

I have found that you must stick to one point at a time as they will try to confuse by changing the subject or if you provide an excellent they then attack your character.

As a believer in Christ we must be careful not to use their tactics when defending our belief, and we are to be ready with an answer when questioned, the Bible tells us so.

May the Lord Jesus bless you with all the things you need.

The same 'message', the same method, the same attitude. The slightly better sugarcoating won't fool anyone familiar with the bag of theist tricks.

reply to post by Atzil321

This is where christians go wrong, people do not like being preached too. Atheists in peticular will fight against being preached at, and attempts to convert them. Its good that your faith aids you in life, and I respect that. You should also respect the fact that athiests ect are content with they're views on the issue, and stop trying to save they're souls. This is probably tha main cause of friction between believers and non believers, and the reason why the argument becomes nasty a lot of the time.

That is a difficult statement to follow as if two people are debating a subject they will refer to their respective documents to show the other of their """"misunderstandings''''''.

So when ever I quote from the Bible it is preaching when ever a non-believer quotes from another non-believer that is not???

Not really.

reply to post by bogomil

I'm not nice now...I know. But what about hypocracy about being hypocritical?

How come only Believers in Christ are held to hypocrisy.?????

Originally posted by bogomil
Possibly 'god' is nothing (you remember my nuances of 'nothing?), and then it's bleeped wrong to call that 'god'.

Nothing IS God.



With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by ACTS 2:38
reply to post by Atzil321

 

This is where christians go wrong, people do not like being preached too. Atheists in peticular will fight against being preached at, and attempts to convert them. Its good that your faith aids you in life, and I respect that. You should also respect the fact that athiests ect are content with they're views on the issue, and stop trying to save they're souls. This is probably tha main cause of friction between believers and non believers, and the reason why the argument becomes nasty a lot of the time.

That is a difficult statement to follow as if two people are debating a subject they will refer to their respective documents to show the other of their """"misunderstandings''''''.

So when ever I quote from the Bible it is preaching when ever a non-believer quotes from another non-believer that is not???

Not really.

There's such a thing as a will to create a common communication-platform. And that's not done through semantics and hihackings.

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by bogomil
Possibly 'god' is nothing (you remember my nuances of 'nothing?), and then it's bleeped wrong to call that 'god'.

Nothing IS God.

With Love,

Your Brother

You are one of the few people, who can send such my way without me looking for my ideological fly-swatter.

That's my way of saying "I agree" to YOU. Anyone else would be exposed to pastafarian wrath.

reply to post by bogomil


I know the rules If I bring up the Bible or Jesus I am preaching.

Since I believe in God and the 6 day creation I am an extremist.
Taking the word of God for fact.

Since I do not adhere to any part of the theory of evolution I am ignorant.
And I must not believe in Science.
When in fact I love science. Science that is real.
I know quite well that many areas of science have theories that have and may never become laws, yet these areas do not have gaps and holes as large as the theory of evolution does.
Adaptation and variation are not examples of evolution. Corn is always corn no matter how far you take it to its genetic boundaries.

Since I believe the word of God on moral issues I am a fundamentalist. Well good.
Everyone on ATS is a fundamentalist in something, even many things as you must know the fundamentals to even use your computer that you are reading this message from.
Though when I am called a fundamentalist it is a bad thing.

May the Lord Jesus Bless you with the things you need.

reply to post by Veritas1


"Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints."

Jude 1:3

Originally posted by TerryMcGuire
And Iamiam. What a clear vision of Gods intentions for creating atheists. destroying the golden calves. If they only knew. God bless em.

Couldn't think of better words to express the thought than this.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by ACTS 2:38


You wrote:

["I know the rules If I bring up the Bible or Jesus I am preaching."]

Nope. There are several bible/Jesus-relating individuals on this forum, who can present the bible or Jesus in a non-preaching way, and whom I respect and can communicate friendly with.

Quote: ["Since I believe in God and the 6 day creation I am an extremist."]

From a rational perspective and depending on the details....to a greater or smaller extent, yes.

Quote: ["Taking the word of God for fact."]

As a personal choice on your part, none of my business. If you push it on a public forum as absolute 'truth', it's everybody's business.

Quote: ["Since I do not adhere to any part of the theory of evolution I am ignorant."]

I'm not much of a biologist myself, but I can sympathise with a rejection of biological 'evolution' as an absolute truth. To reject every single part of it just demonstrates, that you have practically no knowledge of real science, but relate to a phantom-science.

Quote: ["And I must not believe in Science.
When in fact I love science. Science that is real."]

I apologize for my scepticism on your ability to recognize real science. It has not been manifested, when I have been around.

Quote: ["I know quite well that many areas of science have theories that have and may never become laws, yet these areas do not have gaps and holes as large as the theory of evolution does."]

The faith vs. facts controversy (supported by theists/metaphysicists opposed to science/logic) only has biological evolution-theory as one, not essential, aspect.

Quote: ["Since I believe the word of God on moral issues I am a fundamentalist."]

Yes. But that can be manifested privately or as a crusade.

Quote: ["Everyone on ATS is a fundamentalist in something, even many things as you must know the fundamentals to even use your computer that you are reading this message from."]

Only if you start playing semantic games. I am e.g. a philosophical scepticist, but not a fundamentalistic philosophical scepticist.

good, some one finally realised we dont wanna hear any fairtales...... woop woop