Muslims! Save Mecca and Medina from Muslims! (A sort of Mid-East rant, kind of)

My first rant was dedicated to the proposition that fine art, especially classical music, should be protected by all and not held hostage by any for a political or religious purpose. Can we agree that the same can be said for historical, cultural, and religious sites?

I don't happen to agree with the way Islam is practiced by many today, but I want to preserve historic sites important to that religion's history. These are valuable places! Surely we can agree on that. But what is happening there?

Yet growing numbers of citizens, particularly those living in the two holy cities of Mecca and Medina, have looked on aghast as the nation's archaeological heritage is trampled under a construction mania backed by hardline clerics who preach against the preservation of their own heritage.

Mecca, once a place where the Prophet Mohamed insisted all Muslims would be equal, has become a playground for the rich, critics say, where naked capitalism has usurped spirituality as the city's raison d'être.

"No one has the balls to stand up and condemn this cultural vandalism," says Dr Irfan al-Alawi who, as executive director of the Islamic Heritage Research Foundation, has fought in vain to protect his country's historical sites. "We have already lost 400-500 sites. I just hope it's not too late to turn things around."

The Washington-based Gulf Institute estimates that 95 per cent of Mecca's millennium-old buildings have been demolished in the past two decades alone.

And who is doing all this damage? Certainly not US troops or drone attacks.
Muslims! I can't stop it, who listens to an American Christian? But you are doing it to yourselves in the name of your religion! Can't you stop it?

In the eyes of Wahabis, historical sites and shrines encourage "shirq" – the sin of idolatry or polytheism – and should be destroyed. When the al-Saud tribes swept through Mecca in the 1920s, the first thing they did was lay waste to cemeteries holding many of Islam's important figures. They have been destroying the country's heritage ever since. Of the three sites the Saudis have allowed the UN to designate World Heritage Sites, none are related to Islam.

I have no idea how Muslims should protest to an Islamic government, or even if they're allowed to, but please, do something. I have no money, but if you want me to write to someone or sign a petition, I will.

To build the skyscraper city, the authorities dynamited an entire mountain and the Ottoman era Ajyad Fortress that lay on top of it. At the other end of the Grand Mosque complex, the house of the Prophet's first wife Khadijah has been turned into a toilet block. The fate of the house he was born in is uncertain. Also planned for demolition are the Grand Mosque's Ottoman columns which dare to contain the names of the Prophet's companions, something hardline Wahabis detest.

How do you tolerate this?
Source

Originally posted by charles1952
I don't happen to agree with the way Islam is practiced by many today, but I want to preserve historic sites important to that religion's history. These are valuable places! Surely we can agree on that. But what is happening there?

I can assure you the times those masterpieces were made, it was a lot more chaotic then it is now.

And which way do you like Islam being practiced? The way in which white Christian nations are raping Islamic countries for its material wealth? So easy to point fingers and call them terrorist, but people just don't wake up and say "I'm going to be a terrorist". All terrorist have a motive. In the case of "radical Islam", 100's of years of attempted colonization of their lands & resources.

What I find EXTREMELY funny though, the King of Saudi Arabia is trying to "modernize" the holy sites with a 'construction mania', and you're taking up defense in regards to the 'hard-liners' that are against the construction near the holy sites. Those hard-liners that you are defending are the same people you originally said "you don't agree with".

So what are you really trying to do here, rant and prove how Islam is a bad religion and we must put a stop to them??

They've been doing this for centuries. Hiding the truth and origin of their religion to continue to oppress their own people. They care nothing of tradition, truth, and righteousness, but only control.

It's unfortunate the majority of Muslim countries are so brainwashed and weak willed they don't have to courage to overcome this.

But don't worry, you'll find lots of people on here who will undoubtedly blame America for it. Good read.

Originally posted by charles1952
And who is doing all this damage? Certainly not US troops or drone attacks.
Muslims! I can't stop it, who listens to an American Christian? But you are doing it to yourselves in the name of your religion! Can't you stop it?

Well what do you expect, Chinese Buddhists being the majority in Mecca?

How about we take all the power from the Vatican as well, They milked the whole damn world dry in terms of heritage and culture.

reply to post by charles1952


Saudi Arabia kings are cats of freemasonry - Zionists - TPTB . They haven't chosen Islam but they are Wahhabi. a 200 year old kind of branch in Islam religion.

Wahhabi religion was established by the great Britain's hands. They where meant to be the destroyers from inside.

post by hmdphantom


post by pthena


post by hmdphantom



They are betraying Islam and they are doing it before our eyes.

the trails of their betrayal :

Disrespecting Kaba by tall hotel a building like their old Idols much taller than Kaba(the house of Allah).

LibertarianExpress,

I am not attacking Islam, that has nothing to do with my post. I'm very clearly NOT talking about terrorism, radical Islam, Islam as a bad religion, or hardliners. Please don't get distracted.

Try this:
1.) I am not a Muslim, by choice.
2.) I think there is much beauty and significance in the ancient buildings in the Middle East. (Specifically, in this case, Saudi Arabia.)
3.) I think beauty and history should be preserved.
4.) One group of Muslims supports tearing the old buildings down, another doesn't.
5.) I don't want to destroy Islam as a religion.
6.) I want to help preserve the ancient buildings in these cities.
7.) I believe that Muslims would be more influential in saving those sites than I would be.

Where do we have an argument????????

Charles1952

Serizawa,

I'm sorry, I just don't understand your post.

Who's talking about the Vatican?
Who's talking about taking power from Saudi Arabia? (Or Islam?)

I'm concerned about the destruction of significant sites in the Middle East by Muslims who, I would have thought, would want to preserve them.

Or did I miss your point?

Charles1952

hmdphantom,

I agree (especially after seeing the first image you posted) that the new hotel does make the Kaba appear insignificant, but, at least it's not being destroyed.

If Wahhabi is betraying Islam and destroying its shrines, what can be done? Do most Muslims support them? Do most Islamic countries support them?

Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


No one's talking about taking power but you know what, It's funny how we consider a loss in culture "westernization".

Muslims, Christians.......well it doesn't matter. People will be people and you shouldn't have included religions into your post. Or at least change your misleading title:

Who's talking about taking power from Saudi Arabia? (Or Islam?)

Dear Serizawa,

It seems that you see something that I don't, and I would really appreciate it if you'd share it with me.

You made a point that my title was misleading and I shouldn't have included religions. Here is my thinking, please tell me where I went wrong.

I saw an article indicating that widespread destruction of ancient, important sites were being destroyed and that many of them had religious significance. I thought this was a bad thing. The article told me that this destruction was being done by Muslim officials in an Islamic country supported by Muslim clerics. But, I learned that some Muslims were actively opposed to this destruction.

I then asked "What is the best way to prevent this loss?" It seemed to me, based on the above, that Muslims throughout the world would have the most influence over the policy. I wrote a post asking them to do that and indicated my willingness to help.

Where, Oh Serizawa, have I done ill?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


I just know that Saudi Arabia is the main supporter of Wahhabism and the extremist ones who are being taught in Pakistan.

Taliban and Al-Qaeda are Wahhabi ,too.

I don't know any major supporters of Wahhabis except US.

The great ally with Saudi Arabia.

reply to post by charles1952


It's all in the title, Save Mecca and Medina from Muslims? C'mon......Not all Muslims are destroying important sites.

Save Mecca and Medina........Is more like it, Something along those lines.

Like Phantom said I guess 'Wahhabism' is the real threat, And these Wahhabi radicals will force Sharia law onto anyone.

Dear hmdphantom,

Thank you for your polite and helpful response.

I am very ignorant and will not make judgments, but I would like more understanding. I hope you can help.

I know that using "extremist" in the US when refering to Muslims is to say something very bad about them (at least in our eyes).

Do the Muslims who are not Wahhabis think that it is bad to be an "extremist" Muslim?

If it is bad to be an "extremist" Muslim, are there any attempts to make them less "extreme?" Either by education, or by a decree by the Imams, or by any other way?

Do you think that peace would come to the Middle East if the US stopped supporting Saudi Arabia?

Please tell me anything else you think I should know.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

I am very ignorant and will not make judgments

Very good. I try to act that way, too.

I define extremist in my eye. (I have my own understanding of Islam , not the best) :

The people who are being fooled or bribed. I used 'extremist' as a common word.

More info : In Islam if you try to defend your family or your home you will be blessed whether you win or you lose. ( you know that you are right , you try to act according this knowing , you will be blessed ).

Do the Muslims who are not Wahhabis think that it is bad to be an "extremist" Muslim?

They (other Muslims) hate to be ignorant and being played like fools. so you know the answer.

Either by education, or by a decree by the Imams, or by any other way?

Yes. But as far as I know , Education will not solve all the problems. They should understand the priorities. Islam means 'to surrender' and people should surrender the truth they find.

They should learn that Islam rules are prior to everything. There are lots of problems with Muslims like other nations.

Do you think that peace would come to the Middle East if the US stopped supporting Saudi Arabia?

No. The main partner of US is Israel. The state of Zionists.

Please tell me anything else you think I should know.

The main problem with Muslims is that they are not aware of what they have in common. Some of them like to follow the simple rules blindly.

They should get out of blindness and they should find the truth and they should respect it.

Islam is not in war with any nation or religion as long as they are not imposing war.

Tell me what you need to know.


I appreciate your kindness and I respect you as you did to me.

I am not a very informative person but I try my best.

The Saudis are....a bit funny. I can somewhat understand the idea behind giving inanimate things too much power (like attaching undue importance to a building) could plausibly result in a sort of idolatory, but there is a case for preserving them for cultural and historic purposes.
It is the same sort of situations as with the Buddha carvings the Taliban demolished...I'd assume there weren't really any buddhists in Afghanistan, and it is seriously unlikely that any afghani would start worshipping the statues, so it was a bit sad to so casually and meaningless smash away your cultural heritage.

All this talk from extremists about not wanting "western interference" in Islam, yet there is a KFC a walk across the road from the Ka'aba.

If any changes are to come, they should come from the arabian people themselves, but unfortunately, the Saudis are not so willing to let that happen, and they have help from other countries to keep their civilian population in check.

I'm not quite sure how "historic" the Ka'aba is, though. I mean, sure, the location and the religious significance is important, but it's been demolished and rebuilt several times in the past centuries.

I agree. Definitely.

reply to post by hmdphantom


Any evidence to prove the Saudi Royal Family are Freemasons and Zionists, also being a wahhabi goes complety against zionism. What are you talking about ?

A Danish artist makes a cartoon about Mohammed, he gets death threats.

The Wahhabis turn Mohammed's wife's house into a public toilet, and... nothing.