"The towers couldn't have fallen that way..."

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by TrickoftheShade

 

Recently it seems to me that 9/11 Conspiracists have retreated to a point where they discuss only the "physics" of the collapse of the WTC towers.

P.S.
How many of these threads do we need? honestly, how many times do "we" have to explain the same facts to you guys? Every 3rd thread it seems is a "ok stupid anti-american truthers, riddle me THIS" BS fest and it's getting tired and old.

I believe they're trying to wear us out. Keep posting these threads until we wish to no longer discuss it. I'm all good for new members posting these threads and new members responding thereby developing their own knowledge, but for members who have talked about 9/11 ad nauseum there's no point in joining these threads. Senior members with senior members.

reply to post by old_god

The weight bearing down on the top would have caused the top floors to collapse down but....there is a big BUT, they would have stopped in the middle somewhere because a force bearing down on something is met with an equal resistance (another opposing force).

You might be correct if the building had been made in the old fasioned way.
If it had steel 'I' beams running vertical and horizontal. But it didn't. The core had both, but no where else.
None of the floors had horizontal beams. Only trusses.
Even the outer shell had no horizontal beams. Just spandrel plates.

Ask anyone who builds buildings about the weakness of trusses in the horizontal direction. They are fine for vertical loads just don't expect them to hold if the load comes from any other direction other than vertical.

reply to post by TrickoftheShade
In that case, I'd imagine you'll never feel comfortable setting foot in a tall building as you seem to have no faith in their structural integrity.

If damage over 80+ floors up can cause the entire remainder of the building to just utterly fall apart despite quite impressive steel columns and tens of thousands of independent welds and boltings on top of all the other design features, there appear to be some very SERIOUS issues with building codes and safety designs.

You're apparently not interested in serious analysis here as you're willing to discard this information and are apparently comfortable with the thought that non-uniform damage causes buildings to just give up and fall down with no resistance, despite this only happening 3 times in history all on the same day within the same square mile, so you have fun with that. When I ask questions, I actually want to think about something or at least prompt someone else to think as well, and not just discard all replies in nonsensical fashion.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
Recently it seems to me that 9/11 Conspiracists have retreated to a point where they discuss only the "physics" of the collapse of the WTC towers. They brush aside the discussion of a grander conspiracy because the mechanics of the tower collapse are inherently suspisous. Any other argument is trumped by the fact that the towers cannot - simply cannot - have collapsed in the manner that they did.

So I would like to hear, in brief precis, why the collapse is impossible. Describe to me why, in simple terms, it cannot have happened without explosives.

I'd like to attack this from a pure conscious stand point. Has it not been proven, that we as human beings have an over whelming, yet over looked ability to manipulate the outcome of situations simply by our thought, as well as our consciousness alone? If you want to go into the physics stand point, more so quantum mechanics. I bring to you shrodingers cat. en.wikipedia.org... ... If you are not following me yet keep reading.. Now to break down shrodingers cat, it's a paradox used to help physicist understand a super position which is two outcomes that exist at the same time. Considering quantum mechanics deals with science at an atomic/subatomic level and before you say impossible you can read endless amounts of notes on various websites and probably every Quantum physicists note book trying to explain them, but the lay mans term basicly states two out comes for the exact same thing can exist at the exact same time until witnessed by a conscious mind. It's really out there and really messed up to think that two particles that are actually the same particle can exist at the same exact time. Well if physicists believe this, why shouldn't the general public. Now if you take this to a philosophical standing and again look at shrodingers cat, this is it.

Schrödinger's Cat: A cat, along with a flask containing a poison and a radioactive source, is placed in a sealed box shielded against environmentally induced quantum decoherence. If an internal Geiger counter detects radiation, the flask is shattered, releasing the poison that kills the cat. The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics implies that after a while, the cat is simultaneously alive and dead. Yet, when we look in the box, we see the cat either alive or dead, not both alive and dead.
This experiment is used to explain the probability of decay for the radioactive substance. In the box is placed enough radioactivity that after one hour, on atom is released that has potential to trip the switch on the geiger counter, release the poison and kill the cat. The release of the atom, and the potential it could trip the geiger counter throwing the switch smashing the vile killing the cat, how ever it could not trip the hammer, not release the poison and the cat could be fine. So their logic states it's both at the same time until observed. Only then will it be one or the other.


Okay, so if you are still reading, it's going to get more intense, and if you throw this theory out with out providing any sort of explanation as to why not, well you're being extremely close minded and proving most sheeple theories pretty much correct right off the bat. As well you will be discrediting simple physics as far as I've gone yet...I'm getting to my point just keep reading. ha ha. This one could get talked about for a little while, or disappear quickly... we will see.

So schrodingers cat exists in both states at the same time. From a philosophical stand point you could say the entire universe is a super position. We can use the same physics to describe something very large as well as we do something very small.. Now I think this theory works on all levels conscious beings interact, which believe it or not governs almost all things here on Earth, except a few. Why do I say that, think of all the other planets with out life that act nothing like earth. Life makes Earth, Earth but I'm not getting into that. Moving on.

So, we also have experiments going deeper into the idea of the human mind being able to alter the outcome of a situation. Though small, the effect can be measured. In controlled experiments using electronic random number generators, some subjects appear to be able to alter the outcome of the results simply by thinking about it.

This same style of experiment has been carried out using a mechanical set up involving small ball bearing falling from a spout into various chambers with equal spacing, same size so on. The idea a ball bearing should land in place by complete random, this time using gravity rather than electronics as well subjects could influence ball bearings to land in different openings.

I bring you to the hire level of this experiment. noosphere.princeton.edu...
This is the same experiment carried out on a global level.

See the next post for continuation.... Please stay with me.

Part 2 of the above...

Okay, so I went over shrodingers cat, and the random number generator experiments, including the global consciousness experiments.

So Global consciousness states, that the more minds involved, the more likely we are as observers to have an effect on the outcome of an event. The Global consciousness experiment even shows us results on 9/11, the earthquakes and tsunamis in japan have increased levels of deviation in the results of the experiment. There is even an increase in deviation, before the event itself occurs. Why is this important ? Well it shows a number of things, one it shows that even before the event takes place, our subconscious mind seems to pick up a stress or event is going to happen before it happens. It also shows that during the event, the spread of subconscious similarities happens faster than media, it also proves my later point that the more of us that are thinking alike, the stronger the results.

Okay, I briefly went over these last few interesting, but really out there sciences, with data and facts now I'm going to get into what I believe happened. Some of you may be guessing at what I'm going to say, but seriously try to think about it and tell me why it's impossible. If these experiments effect/affect the outcomes of seemingly harmless things like numbers, where a ball bearing falls, it still proves we can manipulate the outcome of an event swinging the odds either in our favor or out of our favor.

Think of the towers as schrodingers cat. Now, when some one throws in the suggestion that the towers could be destroyed (even if it is by poking a termites mound with a pencil in comparison by size of the two objects this still makes me laugh. a plane... destroying 100 stories and hundreds of thousands of tons of steel ... nope not buying it. but that's not what I'm doing here. flying pencil can not bring down an termite mound of that size.) Why wouldn't we all think oh my god they are going to destroy that building. The majority of the public, even the world do not understand how the tower was built. The strength of the materials. The fact they were built to withstand a strike from a plane, that there is very little concrete involved. That fire isn't enough so on and so forth. Well they would panic, right ? We as humans automatically fear the worst, it's natural. That's what fear is, we get so emotional because we think something MAY happen.

Well, with the suggestion, of a plane of all things. Hitting a building and " Boom " exploding into a very ominous fireball, now catching the eye of the entire world. With all that fear, and with all the media suggesting all sorts of outcomes could they not have set off the global consciousness thinking about the building coming down? What about the news stations, that seemingly reported the collapse moments before it happened. Was it insider info? Did they just report something they knew was going to happen before it did? Was that premonition or a suggestion?

Well, with those fireballs on world wide news stations moments after the attack, and all the chatter of the " Concerns " as well as the involvement of " terrorists " what did you think was going to happen the moment the plane hit. Did you think oh my god, that building is going to be fine, it's just a scratch the firemen will put it out it's fine. Well what did you think 20 minutes after? What did you think when the second tower, was hit with the second plane?

WTC7 is a separate event with, a different mass and structure. Designed different and built from different materials so as far as that one goes, I'm leaving it alone but as for why the other towers over came tremendous probability and fell down from a plane striking them above center mass doing very little damage. Well, I think they fell because the superposition was presented and we as a collective conscious mind believed it would happen so it did. As for who struck the towers, who suggested the outcome that's up to who ever wants to think it through enough to see the truth. I will not imply either side the criminal.

This how ever is my thought. Thank you to any and all who read through this enormous reply. I'm sorry for the length but still I feel I could have gone much longer explaining some of my points to others, as well as explaining the experiments involved to back the science of my theory. Again, if you're going to challenge what I've said you have to explain why those experiments couldn't apply to this? They apply to everything, really. It's a lot to think about, and it will make your head hurt, but take a deep breath and think it through. We as life on this planet, have a very powerful effect on both living and non living things here on earth.

Have a wonderful day ATS. Oh, and OP I still can not figure out where you stand on this. You seem to ask us to explain why the towers were not demolished but at the same time yourself don't believe it ? Weird.. Hope this theory keeps you thinking.

IT SICKENS ME TO THINK ANYONE COULD DO THIS TO THERE OWN PEOPLE AS A REASSON TO INVADE Afghanistan FOR WHAT A PIPELINE FOR OIL
THEY SAY THEY ARRE IN Afghanistan TO GET A OLD MAN THAT LIVED IN A CAVE WHAT A LOAD OF BULL

reply to post by Ilyich


You've completely missed the point of schrodinger's cat. And the creators of the GCP have said that their experiment is essentially inconclusive. So basically your belief is completely baseless and pretty darn random. I'd learn a bit more about quantum physics before I based my beliefs on one of it's thought experiments.

reply to post by TrickoftheShade



Well since we aren't allowed to discuss the TRUTH in physical science....then lets view this from a legal perspective.

It is called "Corpus Delicti" --- >

Corpus delicti (plural: corpora delicti) (Latin: "body of crime") is a term from Western jurisprudence referring to the principle that a crime must have been proven to have occurred before a person can be convicted of committing that crime.

We have nearly 3000 people killed in one day....by the terrorists and their attacks.
Many dead bodies and destroyed property....lots of violation of Life and Liberty.

Regardless of the fact that whether the towers were demolished or they indeed did collapse due to the impacts.
People were murdered that day and according to the LAW the events should have been investigated as a crime.

The fact that the FBI refuses to investigate the collapse of the Towers as a crime is in itself highly suspect and actually criminal in itself.

That combined with the continuous orchestrated attacks here on ATS upon those that don't necessarily believe what we are told to is clearly evident of a crime and a cover up by those perpetrators as well.

The use of the Race Card in labeling one as being anti Semitic is also clearly evident as to who is behind all of this.

As with the USS Liberty attacks by Israeli warplanes where American Servicemen lost their lives and there was no investigation and was subsequently swept under the rug, so is it with 911.

There truly IS nothing new under the Sun.


en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Darkwing01

The maximum velocity under that scenario is just slightly over the maximum velocity that can be attained over that drop, and that is being optimistic.

How could you possibly know what his program accounts for?

That is quite a different thing from constant near free-fall acceleration.

It wasn't constant, nor was it near free fall accel.

Psikeyhacker is well aware of the findings from a couple of guys that go by the handles femr and Major Tom over at another forum. They have documented that it wasn't accelerating at all near the end, but rather falling at a constant speed.

And they're truthers.

femr was convinced that there were "pods" on the planes that struck the towers and defended it vigorously.

But they now understand that the collapse was a natural collapse after initiation.And that the fall rate is ok.

So sorry to state the obvious, but they are a couple of guys that are learning. It doesn't look like anyone here is however....

Also noted is your inability to answer the OP. Or is it just a dodge?

reply to post by spacegremlin

IT SICKENS ME TO THINK ANYONE COULD DO THIS TO THERE OWN PEOPLE AS A REASSON TO INVADE Afghanistan FOR WHAT A PIPELINE FOR OIL
THEY SAY THEY ARRE IN Afghanistan TO GET A OLD MAN THAT LIVED IN A CAVE WHAT A LOAD OF BULL

Your perceptions are waaaaaaay off. Maybe you should check a few facts before you solidify your opinion.

Afganistan ranks 179th in oil production.
Even the Bahamas rank higher.

Originally posted by dizziedame

No , not a natural collapse.

Let me change the second sentance.

I still maintain the buildings fell just as they were planned to fall because the explosives placed in the building before the planes hit were expertly placed to cause the buildings to fall as they did.

Oh. Ok then.

So you can't answer the OP - that is answer why a natural collapse couldn't happen.

Fail....

Originally posted by GnabeCA
we can disregard FIRE as a cause for the collapse due to the uniform distribution of debris

It wasn't all that uniform. There was a study done, contratcted by the insurance companies, that determined that it was no where near uniform.

Therefore your objections are invalid.

Fail.

Apply the scientific method to the evidence available, my friend. You are basically saying that the "Physics" argument, as you call it, is invalid, and for no more reason than your pig is wearing boots.

To be clear, the physics arguments may indeed be valid.

But no one has filled in the math yet to prove the NIST incorrect. All one gets is vague references to physics principles. Again, truthers need to fill in the maths. But it hasn't happened yet, after TEN YEARS, even though guys like you are convinced that it is so obvious and easy to figure out.

Fail.

Originally posted by dragonseeker

Actually 7WC was not hit by an airplane, yet it collapsed into its own footprint at freefall speed anyway. that's a controlled demo. and if 7 was wired, so were 1 and 2. 7 proves conspiracy. the rest is filling in the holes and connecting the dots, but 7 is the linchpin.

So then you also can't answer on a technical basis why it was impossible. Instead you depend on your mistaken belief system regarding 7.

Fail.

Originally posted by samkent
reply to post by spacegremlin

 

IT SICKENS ME TO THINK ANYONE COULD DO THIS TO THERE OWN PEOPLE AS A REASSON TO INVADE Afghanistan FOR WHAT A PIPELINE FOR OIL
THEY SAY THEY ARRE IN Afghanistan TO GET A OLD MAN THAT LIVED IN A CAVE WHAT A LOAD OF BULL

Your perceptions are waaaaaaay off. Maybe you should check a few facts before you solidify your opinion.

Afganistan ranks 179th in oil production.
Even the Bahamas rank higher.

Please try to read accurately. He said "pipeline", not "oil production." Afghanistan was invaded not for its oil (it doesn't have much) but to ensure the safety of an oil pipe carrying oil from areas north of Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Russia to the coast of Pakistan to be exported to the world. Here is more details about this.
www.lewrockwell.com...
Other evidence is readily found by an internet search.

Originally posted by GnabeCA

What there isn't evidence of is buildings collapsing symmetrically, ever.

So then incredulity, and not structural engineering and physics is your argument?

Fail

Also no precedent for a steel high-rise collapsing due to fire.

Nor is there a precedent of big jets being flown in buildings.

Nor is there a great many buildings that were built over an electrical sub station that resulted in: a)long span, assymetrically framed floors that; b) had floor connections that weren't designed to deal with the effects of thermal expansion.

So again, you base your objections on incredulity and not on structural engineering or physics.

Fail.

Originally posted by Joey Canoli

Originally posted by GnabeCA

What there isn't evidence of is buildings collapsing symmetrically, ever.

So then incredulity, and not structural engineering and physics is your argument?

Fail

Also no precedent for a steel high-rise collapsing due to fire.

Nor is there a precedent of big jets being flown in buildings.

Nor is there a great many buildings that were built over an electrical sub station that resulted in: a)long span, assymetrically framed floors that; b) had floor connections that weren't designed to deal with the effects of thermal expansion.

So again, you base your objections on incredulity and not on structural engineering or physics.

Fail.

So this asimetric basement structure, wich was at street level, right? Helped to produce a simmetrical collapse due to uneven damage, got it...

As said before, we must be doing something good, shills are on full force.

Originally posted by XLR8R

But I do not know of any way nor have I read anything that can prove with out a doubt the the towers fell by themselves. If they did fall by themselves then there must have been some major construction flaws.

No flaws at all, neither in design nor in construction. They were never designed from the outset to resist a plane impact.

There are indeed conflicting statements, but Robertson himself has stated like I did. It would be silly to do so. Instead, he has stated that the building was designed, and THEN when questions came up about what would happen if a plane hit one of them, there was a study done. And it was found that the buildings wouldn't topple at the base (being knocked "over") nor would they immediately collapse. And they didn't.

IMO and through the research that I have done, the probabilities of the towers colapsing as they did are slim to none.

IOW, you can't answer the OP either.

Fail

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters

How many of these threads do we need?

Honestly, this is one of the first with this twist.

The OP is asking for just a simple statement.

If I was a truther, I would answer with something like: " It couldn't have happened because (for instance) it has been shown that the laws of motion require that the collapse should have taken 25-30 seconds. AND HERE IS MY MATHS TO PROVE THAT MY STATEMENT HAS VALIDITY.

You see that capitalized part? I've never seen it from truthers....

honestly, how many times do "we" have to explain the same facts to you guys? .

You have few facts that support your position.

And they are inconclusive at best.

fail

Originally posted by nh_ee

Well since we aren't allowed to discuss the TRUTH in physical science

You're allowed.

Procede.

Include your maths to back up any science or consider it a FAIL

Originally posted by Joey Canoli

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters

How many of these threads do we need?

Honestly, this is one of the first with this twist.

The OP is asking for just a simple statement.

If I was a truther, I would answer with something like: " It couldn't have happened because (for instance) it has been shown that the laws of motion require that the collapse should have taken 25-30 seconds. AND HERE IS MY MATHS TO PROVE THAT MY STATEMENT HAS VALIDITY.

You see that capitalized part? I've never seen it from truthers....

honestly, how many times do "we" have to explain the same facts to you guys? .

You have few facts that support your position.

And they are inconclusive at best.

fail

Lets see, he has been given a simple answer, and declined it. People have pointed out thousant times why the towers should have not taken 10 secs to fall, but much longer, apparently he ignored these as well, or is too stupid to understand it. The first with this twist? Lol those poor kids think we dont read here...
I still have to see one of you fairytalers come to try and cover any of the holes the OS has.