Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc.... Explain this

reply to post by XplanetX


You clearly do not understand the subtleties....

It could, it is true, be a 'spirit' which gathers together unconscious memories and attempts to self itself off as a dead loved one.

However, in the case of recovering lost memories from a previous life. That is perfectly possible aswell.

You should add atheists to the list of groups you expect to explain that.

I am not one of your named groups, but I am happy to say that science is slowly uncovering what I have always believed to be true. Way to go science.

reply to post by SOILDERSUNITEDFORCHRIST



Actually, there are several allusion to it in the Torah. I will post them for you when I get back from work today.

Also, There are some very old writings on it from famous rabbis such as the Arizal and Rabbi Yehuda Fatiya. That in itself lends tot he fact that it was a more widespread belief than previously thought. References are also found in the Dead Sea scrolls and the Talmud Balvi which dates from around the Ist century. I am not saying that reincarnation is a fact, no one can know what takes place after death. I am just responding to the OP that the tradition does and has existed in Judaism for a very very long time.

Originally posted by SOILDERSUNITEDFORCHRIST
reply to post by dontreally

 

not reicarnation but RESSURECTION just because some jews believed in it doesent mean it was accepted in the bible most jews dint recognize their own messiach....

Also, what you are doing here is a fallacy of logic. You are basing your reasoning and assumption of one thing on you own belief of another improvable, unrelated thing.

sounds more like cell memory than reincarnation. we are born with so many instincts and mannerisms from our parents that I would not be surprised some.people could recall memories from their ancestors.

Originally posted by yaluk
sounds more like cell memory than reincarnation. we are born with so many instincts and mannerisms from our parents that I would not be surprised some.people could recall memories from their ancestors.

As good an explanation as any-- and better than most.

I had a mystical experience involving specific information about two persons (one of the two died) I recognized only as "family" to me, and "brothers" concerning the two. Details allowed me to narrow the approximate time, and two years later, research found a likely match. All I know is something was important about it all.

I matched date of death, cause of death, that the brothers were likely together, and weather at the time of death.

So...
* Someone believing in reincarnation will tell me it was "Me," in a past life. I say, "No it was not."
* A Christian Fundamentalist will tell me it was demon. I say, "Nope, not in this case."
* An atheist may tell me I am delusional. I say, "Nope."
* A Hindu may tell me it might be my ancestor to be honored. I say, "Perhaps."
* A Christian Traditionalist may tell me, "It was vision you were to see and understand." I say, "Yes, that fits."

My interpretation tells about me-- not about metaphysically known truths.

I, of course, hold the last option in my list, and my metaphysics allow that, but do not require that as an answer. My metaphysics are the result of what is and what is not compatible with the the spiritual authorities I hold to be true.

reply to post by freedish
Also, even in cases where it's not outright possession, I believe most who are spiritually inclined will agree that the spiritual realm and its denizens can provide vast and hidden knowledge to people, implant memories/visions, and a whole host of other things.

Just because someone has knowledge and memories of another's life doesn't necessarily mean they lived that life. It just means they've somehow been given that knowledge.

And then, there are weird cases such as knowledge/behavioral adoption occurring in cases of organ translants and the like...with the fact that we're all breathing recycled air breathed by other people, viruses and such can transmit genetic codes, and a whole host of other things, there might also be more mundane but no less strange methods of this occurring.

Just some weird food for thought.

If I remember correctly, I think Christianity originally was ok with the belief in reincarnation, but it was the church that decided to do away with it. Not surprising.

Could also be due to DNA
If traits get passed to future generations, it's possible the memories are getting passed down as well.

Originally posted by Alxandro
If I remember correctly, I think Christianity originally was ok with the belief in reincarnation, but it was the church that decided to do away with it. Not surprising.

Could also be due to DNA
If traits get passed to future generations, it's possible the memories are getting passed down as well.

Reincarnation "originally okay" in Christianity?

In Speculative Theology, maybe; but the belief is largely incompatible with the primary tenants of the Resurrection of the dead following the final judgement -- without a whole lot of squirming.

Odd that you say, "but it was the church that decided to do away with it." Well... Who else decides what the church believes, if not the Church? This surprises you? This offends your sensibilities? Is the church to hold it up to a popular vote or does it use theology and its own authority?

The concept that all religions are allowed to articulate their own beliefs except Christianity; and that Christianity, alone, must accommodate all other beliefs and all other denial of beliefs is very prevalent. It is also absurd.

The fact is, the received tradition (which includes the written Jewish Canon, the developing New Testament Canon, and the oral teachings, practices, and beliefs) was silent on metempsychosis (reincarnation). As speculation, then, it is fine; but so far, it fails to overcome an apparent (and probably concrete) contradiction with fundamental Christian beliefs later to become creedal, specifically the two just mentioned.

I have four academic texts on the first 400 years of the Church, in my room,
* Jaroslav Pelikan's, The Christian Tradition
* J N D Kelly's, Early Christian Doctrines
* J. Stevenson's (and Frend), Creeds, Councils and Controversies, and
* Cyril Richardson's Early Christian Fathers

Not one of them mentions reincarnation-- even as speculative thought-- within the Early Church. Not with me, I do believe I recall one of the ancient Christian theologians (It is claimed, but there is no evidence, that Origen speculated upon reincarnation) engaged the topic, but I cannot recall who.

Mind you, the "Early Church" as a technical term, refers to the time from the Apostles to just before Constantine. In very general terms, that can be seen as to represent the Jewish and Gentile-converts working out the details without undue external influences. It is what changes from there which many scholars use to identify theological concern possibly attributed to influences from culture (e.g., the state and other religions).

In that Early Church period, the Church was in "survival mode" with virtually no influence on anything outside of itself. Portrayals of "Roman domination" (implicit, I think, in the post to which I respond) are anachronistic in the extreme.

Originally posted by freedish
reply to post by religiousmurder

 

hypnosis is a form of possession where a person opens themselves to be heavily influenced by a demon.
demons have been around since the creation of the earth.
they are very intelligent and can most likely speak every language.
since they have been around so long they can mimic human behavior
they can speak through people if those people give them the authority
please don't be tricked by this deception, this stuff is meant to lead you astray from God

The religion of Christianity is a highly, highly, highly evolved meme complex, or grouping of ideas that has figured out a very effective way to keep itself from ever being "disproved."
Very simple: Anything that doesn't agree with what I believe must be of the devil, and all his "highly convincing lies."

www.christianitymeme.org...

But before anyone starts attacking me, I'm not denying God here, just the logic of Christianity as it is today.

Christianity did believe in reincarnation until......................people wanted to use religion to control people. I'm using christian bible verses. I am not christian in any way shape or form.

Why in the world would Jesus followers think he was 'another'? It's because reincarnation was a wides spread belief.

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." (Matt. 16:13-14)

The pre-existence of the soul was a secret teaching held by early Christians until it was condemned by the Roman Church in 553 A.D., perhaps because it implied reincarnation spirit. The following Bible verses describes the pre-existence of souls.

He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish in his sight and love. (Eph. 1:4)

The following is another Bible verse supporting pre-existence.
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (John 8:58)

www.near-death.com...

Originally posted by 547000
Since you don't believe in the possibility of spiritual deception what can we say? You'll have to experience demons for yourself before you'll accept that possibility.

just how do you suggest we go about "experiencing" demons?

reply to post by kokoro


EVERY THING IS MEANINGLESS THAN IF WHAT YOU WANT IS SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE FOR REINCARNATION OR RESURRECTION. I GET MY SOURCES AND BELIEVES FROM 66 DIFFERENT BOOKS PIN BY 40 DIFFERENT AUTHORS OVER THOUSANDS OF YEARS,(HOLY BIBLE) YET I CAN PROVE IT IS A MESSAGE FROM OUTSIDE OUR TIME DOMAIN AND THE WRITERS WERE INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT..THESE WRITERS WERE NOT ILLITERATE LIKE MOHAMED OR ALL OTHER FALSE TEACHERS.. YOU GET YOUR SOURCES FROM MAN. THE FACT THAT YOU ARE TAKING ONLY ONE TEACHING FROM AN INTEGRATED MESSAGE MAKES NO SENSE, IF YOU BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES YOU HAVE TO STUDY ALL THE TEACHINGS , NOT SIMPLY TAKE WHAT YOU LIKE

well, they say energy is never destroyed, just transformed....from reading these posts, alot of people have 'seen the buddha on the road' but didn't kill him....

Right out of the gate. I would rather believe in the words of Christ than anyone else. Especially someone under the influence of hypnosis. Who's to say these peeps weren't preprogramed under hypnosis ? You don't know and
man can not be trusted.

You have no idea.

Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by freedish

 

And then, there are weird cases such as knowledge/behavioral adoption occurring in cases of organ translants

interesting, i've heard of this before. i'm not sure how conclusive the evidence is but I suppose there could be something to it.

reply to post by patternfinder


Be very fortunate.

Then you know that both demons and hell are true.

Originally posted by patternchek

Originally posted by ProphecyPhD
If you believe in reincarnation that means you believe in an afterlife meaning you believe there is a purpose to life meaning we are here for a reason meaning we must have been put here by a creator meaning THERE IS A GOD

whos to say or deny reincarnation but this logic is what is wrong with the world...lol..
1. Reincarnatiin does not mean after life but a recurring life..lol
2.having an afterlife does not mean we are here for a reason..it may just be the natural order of things if it were the case.
3.being put here by a creator does not factually mean we were put here for a reason, it may be becuase a meteor luckily hit earth carrying the organisms from an exploding planet. Not to say its the case but your statements are not factual.
4. A creator isnt necessarily god. We are now creating life and we are not god.
Not trying to be harsh but when people act like they know things that they dont know factually then they prevent themselves from learning.

1 Reincarnation - Macbook built-in Dictionary definition

reincarnation |ˌrē-inkärˈnā sh ən|
noun
the rebirth of a soul in a new body.
• a person or animal in whom a particular soul is believed to have been reborn : he is said to be a reincarnation of the Hindu god Vishnu.
• figurative the newest version or closest match of something from the past : the latest reincarnation of the hippie look.

So you were wrong in your first statement as it is not a recurring life but a transition of bodies when you pass away.

2. Having an afterlife does mean we are here for a purpose, there is no such thing as the natural occurrence of things without purpose (this can be observed with that quantum particle test that separates when there is no observer but as soon as an observer is (funnily enough) observing they change their movement patterns), everything has purpose.

The sun photosynthesizes the plants and the plants release oxygen and thus we breathe. - That sounds like a purpose to me, obviously that is not the only purpose, all species of land animal or insect or reptile on earth requires this chemical in order to live, some sea creatures need to resurface every now and then to get some oxygen (dolphins, whales), some convert the water into oxygen using their gills, if you cannot see reason in that or purpose in that then you are truly blind.


3. Having a creator means that their was purpose, when you create something, be it music, a piece of art, a science project or even a new invention (unnamed because its new duhh) it has its purpose , music to entertain, art to be a spectacle to gaze upon, a science project to obtain new results or to test old old ones, a new invention to improve what ever the field, all of that when humans are the creator. Purpose exists in that.

Man can create what we want on this planet to suit its purpose, why does that mean that God could not have created this (by this i mean the earth) to suit his purpose.

Ever heard of the saying "stop trying to play God".

4. A creator isn't necessarily God you are correct, but when it comes to the creation of the universe and the entire creation of life on earth, i think it rings a different bell, a creator can be anything but the creator of life is a completely different ball game, and what life do we create?

Babies, all creatures create babies or seeds for plants or eggs for birds and reptiles. We were MADE that way anyway.

Not trying to be harsh but when people act like they know things that they dont know factually then they prevent themselves from learning.

Peace

There is no account of reincarnation in the Bible, the only things slightly close to that is not reincarnation but resurrection.

The resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the resurrection of all the dead at judgement day.

Did you know???????? that when cremation first came along, it was argued by the people that the deceased should not be burned but kept in a grave until judgement day where God will raise the dead and restore life for the final judgement.

>

New International Version (©1984)
But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

New Living Translation (©2007)
But those who die in the LORD will live; their bodies will rise again! Those who sleep in the earth will rise up and sing for joy! For your life-giving light will fall like dew on your people in the place of the dead!

English Standard Version (©2001)
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Your dead will live. Their corpses will rise. Those who lie dead in the dust will wake up and shout for joy, because your dew is a refreshing dew, and the earth will revive the spirits of the dead.

King James Bible
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

American King James Version
Your dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, you that dwell in dust: for your dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

American Standard Version
Thy dead shall live; my dead bodies shall arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust; for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast forth the dead.

Bible in Basic English
Your dead will come back; their dead bodies will come to life again. Those in the dust, awaking from their sleep, will send out a song; for your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the shades.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Thy dead men shall live, my slain shall rise again: awake, and give praise, ye that dwell in the dust: for thy dew is the dew of the light: and the land of the giants thou shalt pull down into ruin.

Darby Bible Translation
Thy dead shall live, my dead bodies shall arise. Awake and sing in triumph, ye that dwell in dust; for thy dew is the dew of the morning, and the earth shall cast forth the dead.

English Revised Version
Thy dead shall live; my dead bodies shall arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast forth the dead.

Webster's Bible Translation
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

World English Bible
Your dead shall live. My dead bodies shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust; for your dew is like the dew of herbs, and the earth will cast forth the dead.

Young's Literal Translation
Thy dead live -- My dead body they rise. Awake and sing, ye dwellers in the dust, For the dew of herbs is thy dew, And the land of Rephaim thou causest to fall.

Dust being the soil.

Peace

reply to post by religiousmurder


If you haven't read "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Professor Julian Jaynes, treat yourself. One of the most important works in recent times.

Read it.