Putting a face on tax increases

reply to post by daskakik

To be honest the numbers don't cause the class divides. The reality those numbers are based on cause them.

The tragic "reality" is that so many hold a "reality" that has nothing to do with their own flourishing and prospering. Most wealthy people create wealth at all hours of the day. This means while they are sound asleep they are still earning money. The poor have foolishly bought into a false nobility of poverty and are all too willing to believe that hard work alone is all that is needed to create wealth.

Hard work is fine, and each of us should practice hard work whenever feasible, but none of us should sell our own prosperity down the river for the sake of hard work. There is much, much, much, more in play than a numbers divide, and this numbers divide, in and of itself is not the cause of anything.

Earlier, I took Mr. Pot to task for his sloppy indoctrinated use of the word myth. The mythic hero, whether it be the fictional character of Luke Skywalker, or Spiderman, or whether it be Gandhi, or Galileo, are people who have accepted full responsibility for not only their own actions, but for the actions of many. It is not easy to accept this type of responsibility, but each of us, regardless of our economic status, are more than capable of doing so. When we all begin to accept responsibility for this fiasco we call the economy, rich or poor, then we will begin working towards saner policies.

In the meantime I suppose the simple minded, both rich and poor, will continue to play this pointless blame game as if blame has any relevance at all. I have enjoyed our discourse, but it is late and I must go.

Peace,

JPZ

Originally posted by narwahl
reply to post by macman

 

But you can't deny that 100.000 dollars are worth more to you than to warren buffet!
That's why a flat tax sounds fair, but really isn't.

It does not matter. It is not your money to decide what is is or is not worth.

Originally posted by Sunsetspawn

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by narwahl

 

I love the rah rah rah chants of tax the wealthy when I seem to recall people with incomes of $45k or less pay no income taxes. And that income rate should probably be what $75k actually.

LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR
You're just going to post this crap without backing it up with some type of evidence?

You obviously do not understand the tax code, or you're actually choosing to be dishonest, and either way it is a LIE (look up the definition). Regardless of whether or not you actually believe what you typed, there are some people that DO BELIEVE IT. This type of ignorance is unaccetpable and I'm here to make sure it doesn't continue.

Let's all do a little research and not succumb to stupidity.


Stupidity of the American public aside, I'm also curious about the claim that 50% of the country doesn't pay taxes, but I won't attack that claim because I don't know anything about it. I do know for a fact that I've ALWAYS paid taxes no matter what I've earned, so I'd like to know who is earning money without actually paying taxes.

edit on 9/22/2011 by Sunsetspawn because: (no reason given)

What are you peddling?
Anyone earning around $45k a year gets all the taxes they paid back in the form of a return.
I know this because I remember getting all the taxes back while making under that amount. Both state and federal. Going through all the deductions, you get your money back.

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by Sunsetspawn

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by narwahl

 

I love the rah rah rah chants of tax the wealthy when I seem to recall people with incomes of $45k or less pay no income taxes. And that income rate should probably be what $75k actually.

LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR
You're just going to post this crap without backing it up with some type of evidence?

You obviously do not understand the tax code, or you're actually choosing to be dishonest, and either way it is a LIE (look up the definition). Regardless of whether or not you actually believe what you typed, there are some people that DO BELIEVE IT. This type of ignorance is unaccetpable and I'm here to make sure it doesn't continue.

Let's all do a little research and not succumb to stupidity.


Stupidity of the American public aside, I'm also curious about the claim that 50% of the country doesn't pay taxes, but I won't attack that claim because I don't know anything about it. I do know for a fact that I've ALWAYS paid taxes no matter what I've earned, so I'd like to know who is earning money without actually paying taxes.

edit on 9/22/2011 by Sunsetspawn because: (no reason given)

What are you peddling?
Anyone earning around $45k a year gets all the taxes they paid back in the form of a return.
I know this because I remember getting all the taxes back while making under that amount. Both state and federal. Going through all the deductions, you get your money back.

Ummm.... No. Not everyone gets all their their money back. They get a refund of the ammount they over paid to the IRS. If my tax liability os $5000, and I pay $7500, I can expect a refund of $2500. That would be for a single person with no kids. You can get more deductions from your tax liability, if you have write-offs (kids, mortgage, business costs, etc, but I don't think anyone gets a 100% tax refund.

I don't know where you get your info, but why do you seem fixated on the $45,000 number? Where did you hear that people who earn less than that, get all of their money back? $45,000 is in the 3rd tier tax bracket, leaving 2 lower brackets.

reply to post by AngryAlien


I recall when making less the $45k a year, I got all that I paid into Federal and State back as a refund.

Maybe the $45 is not a solid case for this, as it is more likely $40k and below.

i wonder how long it will take for people to honestly realize that they aren't "paying into the system" when they pay taxes.......you are just paying rent for the money that the private federal reserve bank prints up for you use for your currency

reply to post by macman


I don't buy this private property argument. Ownership does not trump human need and dignity. The survival of citizens is more important than the marginal benefit of a few extra dollars to the rich. If hospitals and alms are not provided to the poor by charitable patrons and if the care offered to the poor is inadequate then the state has an obligation to step in and bridge the gap in services. The state is responsible to and for its citizens and ought to serve their vital interests. Namely, it ought to serve their interest in living.

If the state does not have sufficient funds to run public hospitals and so forth then it has a duty to raise more funds. If the collective tax revenue of the lower classes is inadequate to fund a sufficient number of public servants then the wealthier citizens ought to be compelled to pay into the system. This is a necessity for the state, a duty for the wealthy, and a utilitarian solution for everybody involved.

The wealthy become wealthy through the hard work of those under them. They owe their livelihoods to other people. If they do not depend on employees to make their wealth, then they depend on builders to provide them shelter, or farmers to provide them sustenance, or miners to provide them materiel. They depend on the labours of the less fortunate in order to thrive and they ought to co-operate with the less fortunate and support them in their time of need as a form of thanks. Society ought to be collaborative and supportive.

What's more, the continued health, happiness, and well-being of the less fortunate improves the state of the community as a whole. The poor workers can continue working hard and can provide much more to society than they would be able to if they were ill, dead, or overwhelmed. Reducing discontent in society makes it more stable and prosperous, to the benefit of all.


$500 a week in additional taxes does little harm to Congressman Fleming. In fact, it does no harm whatsoever; it adds no suffering to his life, it merely removes from his life what is to him a small piece of change. The benefit that it provides to the whole of society is much greater than the small marginal benefit that he gains from it. It pays a nurse for a week. It buys a wheelchair for a cripple. It covers a month's rent for a family of five. It can bring so much more good to the poor than it does to the wealthy. There is little lost when you increase the higher marginal tax rates. There is much gained when the public trust is well funded and is not under assault by unscrupulous and unpatriotic elites who would rather help themselves get slightly richer than help their poor countrymen to survive.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


Oh good grief. I really don't care what you are buying. You believe what you want to believe.
This idea you tout is group think collectivism at its best, or should I say worst.
I got here because of the work of others is BS.
Bill Gates started his company in a Garage. It was not started by thousands of employees.
Now, the company runs because of the employees, that make the widgets for sale. But, at the end of the day, it is Bill Gate's company. it is there to make a profit for Bill Gates (and board members and stock holders), not to provide a job.

There is still private property. What's mine is mine, what's yours is yours. Very simple.

The idea of public anything is forced onto us by an ever expanding and intrusive Fed Govt.

And this holier then thou attitude when it comes to other people's money is just really disgusting.
Where do you , or anyone else get the idea that you get to determine what is good for others, or what percentage of their income they get to keep?
Talk about a God Complex.
It is their money, not yours.
Why not worry less about others, and more about yourself.

reply to post by macman


"Group think collectivism" at its worst is "everything that you possess belongs to everyone else, you get nothing." The actual issue at hand isn't the confiscation of all of the wealth of the wealthy. It is a slight increase in the amount of tax that they pay. The highest that the top marginal tax rate has ever been in America is in the period 1945-1963, when it never dropped below 90%. Do you really mean to tell me that there were no wealthy individuals in that time frame or that no rich person was motivated to work because taxes were too high?

Private property is an artificial legal formality. There is no such thing in nature. There is nothing intrinsic to an object that makes it your property; it is only your property because you claim to own it and the law recognizes your claim. Natural law is that nothing belongs to anybody. There is no property of ownership in nature. You can possess things, but they are not branded as yours on a molecular level. You can hold property but you cannot own it outright. Every child knows this by nature. Something only belongs to you as long as it's in your possession and nobody else has taken it for themselves. An ill-mannered child doesn't like to share. An ill-mannered child takes without asking and without giving in return.

Bill Gates worked hard to establish his company and he deserves respect for his success. He still provides guidance and leadership and acts as a spokesperson, which is still labour of a sort. He still works to make his company successful. He is not the root cause of the company's success in the present. If all of his employees quit his company would be ruined. It would take years to replace their skilled labour and it may never happen before the company runs out of funds.

At the beginning the company depended on Gates and a few others' work to succeed and he was much more directly responsible for the wealth generated by Microsoft. Now there are thousands of employees whose work generates the company's wealth directly. Bill Gates depends on them to run his business and he cannot do it without them. If he stops working and he refuses to pay back into the system then he should not be allowed to reap massive profits from the company; his ownership should not override the merit of others' hard work.

Bill Gates is a bad example for your argument because he donates billions to social welfare programs. He tries to make the world a better place for the less fortunate because his billions don't really improve his quality of life anymore, at some point his wealth became too great for him to spend on himself.

I do worry about myself. I benefit from the welfare state. I worry about others as well. Many people benefit from the welfare state, I have seen it first hand. I have seen many people who rely on it for short term assistance and then proceed with their lives, paying back into the system. They depend on it in times of need and they fund it when they no longer need its aid. It is an insurance program, a co-operative trust fund. Do you have no sympathy for those who are suffering and destitute?

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


Blah Blah Blah.
Nature owns everything, we are all just light trapped in sacks of skin, you can't own a cloud.
Blah blah blah.

It is nice to hear the retread hippy types, regurgitating the same 70's crap, reformulated into some kind of internet hipster.

Ok, sure sure.


On to the next thing I guess.

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by Sunsetspawn

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by narwahl

 

I love the rah rah rah chants of tax the wealthy when I seem to recall people with incomes of $45k or less pay no income taxes. And that income rate should probably be what $75k actually.

LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR
You're just going to post this crap without backing it up with some type of evidence?

You obviously do not understand the tax code, or you're actually choosing to be dishonest, and either way it is a LIE (look up the definition). Regardless of whether or not you actually believe what you typed, there are some people that DO BELIEVE IT. This type of ignorance is unaccetpable and I'm here to make sure it doesn't continue.

Let's all do a little research and not succumb to stupidity.


Stupidity of the American public aside, I'm also curious about the claim that 50% of the country doesn't pay taxes, but I won't attack that claim because I don't know anything about it. I do know for a fact that I've ALWAYS paid taxes no matter what I've earned, so I'd like to know who is earning money without actually paying taxes.

edit on 9/22/2011 by Sunsetspawn because: (no reason given)

What are you peddling?
Anyone earning around $45k a year gets all the taxes they paid back in the form of a return.
I know this because I remember getting all the taxes back while making under that amount. Both state and federal. Going through all the deductions, you get your money back.

All the deductions?
I would love to see some actual facts from you on this. How many deductions do you think the average family making less than 45 grand have? Scratch that. I do not care what you think. I want facts. You seem to think that poor people really get a great deal in this country. Have you chosen to be poor yet?

Anyway, please post something to completely back this claim up of yours.

reply to post by FallenWun


Yes, I chose to be poor (Sarcasm). What kind of question is that?

As for proof? Aside from Posting my W2s and refunds checks from past, I really don't know what you want.

While in the military, I paid about $1700 in federal taxes, and got a refund for $1700. State was around $900, and got that back. I think my yearly was around $29k or so.

My SIL made about $20k last year, and got all she paid in taxes back.

Originally posted by macman

Anyone earning around $45k a year gets all the taxes they paid back in the form of a return.

This not true

The money you get back has everything to do will you deductions, if you don't have them, you get
very little back.

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by macman

Anyone earning around $45k a year gets all the taxes they paid back in the form of a return.

This not true

The money you get back has everything to do will you deductions, if you don't have them, you get
very little back.

Don't know who or how you are doing your taxes.
Again, single in the military I got everything back.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by FallenWun

 

Yes, I chose to be poor (Sarcasm). What kind of question is that?

An honest one. What kind of answer is that?

As for proof? Aside from Posting my W2s and refunds checks from past, I really don't know what you want.

You said everyone making under $45,000 a year. Obviously you have seen proof for everyone so all you have to do is share it with me.

While in the military, I paid about $1700 in federal taxes, and got a refund for $1700. State was around $900, and got that back. I think my yearly was around $29k or so.

My SIL made about $20k last year, and got all she paid in taxes back.

Great. I can type words too.

reply to post by FallenWun


Oh good hell.

Anyone I have ever known in my life, making under $45k gets everything they paid back in a refund.

If you don't, I would suggest someone else doing your taxes.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by FallenWun

 

Oh good hell.

Anyone I have ever known in my life, making under $45k gets everything they paid back in a refund.

If you don't, I would suggest someone else doing your taxes.

So when you said everyone, you were just talking out of your ass then?

Originally posted by FallenWun

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by FallenWun

 

Oh good hell.

Anyone I have ever known in my life, making under $45k gets everything they paid back in a refund.

If you don't, I would suggest someone else doing your taxes.

So when you said everyone, you were just talking out of your ass then?

This guy IS talking out of his ass, I've seen more returns than I'd care to admit... He's gonna have to start brushing his ass at this rate.

reply to post by FallenWun


Oh, so sorry. I guess you and some others don't get everything back.
Sounds like you and the others need to get better people doing your taxes.

I guess talking out of your ass is pretty common, as all of your retorts are basically the same anecdotal posts.

reply to post by macman


And yours aren't anecdotal?

"Anyone I have known who pays less than 45K a year..."