Can you prove evolution wrong

Originally posted by k0mbination
reply to post by vedatruth

 

Are you saying that if you have a soul then you can't believe in evolution?!??!

Yes!

If you believe in soul, you cannot believe in evolution. It is impossible.

I love the proof that creationists use !

God spoke and so it was created, and some book written and re written and re written
there is your smoking gun evidence !

Originally posted by vedatruth

Originally posted by k0mbination
reply to post by vedatruth

 

Are you saying that if you have a soul then you can't believe in evolution?!??!

Yes!

If you believe in soul, you cannot believe in evolution. It is impossible.

Why not? a soul/spirit by itself doesn't necessarily makes a lifeform intelligent.

There can be souls/spirits and for creation and evolution to exist at the same time.

Originally posted by sapien82
I love the proof that creationists use !

God spoke and so it was created, and some book written and re written and re written
there is your smoking gun evidence !

Just out of curiosity.

Do you believe in the Big Bang?

I was brought up by Atheist parents & Evolution... a Godless household (Mainly due to my fathers disdain for organised religion & the Catholic Church in particular as one of his friends was abused by a Priest)

Anyhows I digress.... I simply cannot beleive in Evolution...

1. The diversity of Life on planet Earth is breathtaking.

2. The beauty in nature on planet Earth is awe inspiring.

3. The Universe it's enormity, how spectacular it is and perhaps more importantly how ordered it is.

4. The Univeral laws that govern everything so precisely.

5. Yet I am supposed to beleive that this all happened by accident!.... Order never comes from chaos. One only has to look at the garden to see that unless I intervened & put in hours of hard work it would soon fall into disarray.

6. Even the simplest life forms are actually quite complicated. The more science learns about the chemisty & genetics involved even single celled life forms, the more it appears the hand of an intelligent designer was at work.

7. No one has ever given me a satisfactory answer as to why if Mankind is the current pinnacle of the evolutionary tree on planet Earth - why human childbirth is so painful and fraught with danger. Surely if our brains are bigger & the birth canal struggles to cope with the size of a babies head moving down from the uterus. Why did Home Sapien women not evolve a birth canal that could cope that child birth did not turn out to be one of the most painful & traumatic experiences a woman ever goes through, particularly with the first birth. I've watched other animals give birth and although things can go horribly wrong, a normal birth for other creatures even apes, who are supposed to be our closest relative are not anywhere near as traumatic or it would appear painful.

That's my first 7 reasons.....there's loads more as well...

For all the people saying "aliens" did it. Could i ask you if aliens created humans who created the aliens?

Morning all. I have work to do so I'll be brief

Lots of good posts and have read them all.

Vedatruth: Been down this path before. If you can give me a definitive description of what a soul is then I will tell you if I believe I have one.

Someone accused evolution of being immoral as it promotes 'superiority.' I totally dispute that. Evolution describes how an organism survives long enough to breed and pass on its genes.

I would also like to point out that many if not all religions promote elitism. So the implementation of how evolution or religion is misused is down to individuals using these to promote their own agendas.

A creative force is undeniable whether that force is chemistry/god/aliens is not for me to say as I have no idea what it is just know that it is. Of course it is not Evolutions place to explain this either as it cannot.

Still seems to be a number that have problems with the title but the proof of the pudding is in the eating and so far we seem to be having a debate and that was the intent.

Anyhow mouths to feed and bills to pay. Later

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
For all the people saying "aliens" did it. Could i ask you if aliens created humans who created the aliens?

An excellent point good sir. Which came first the chicken or the egg? Actually science has proven beyond doubt that the chicken cam first... So I guess that was a silly thing for me to say.

I don't know who created who... But isn't it a facinating mystery?

reply to post by hudsonhawk69


My maint thing is humans are built like machines, my biology is a little rusty but the simple concept is neurons form connections. Furthermore the eye is like a camera and people like any machine can malfunction in the form of genetic mutations that lead to Parkinsons disease and other diseases or have psychological diseases. Now how this all came to be is a good question and we don't really know for sure, my hope is if aliens were involved they didn't throw in something that allows them to activate control of us if they choose so of course that's more sic-fi than reality.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by vedatruth

Originally posted by k0mbination
reply to post by vedatruth

 

Are you saying that if you have a soul then you can't believe in evolution?!??!

Yes!

If you believe in soul, you cannot believe in evolution. It is impossible.

Why not? a soul/spirit by itself doesn't necessarily makes a lifeform intelligent.

There can be souls/spirits and for creation and evolution to exist at the same time.

edit on 22-9-2011 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)

The question is "who you are"? Are you soul or a body?

When I say who you are - I mean the person that is talking to me right now.

If you say you are a body, then what happens when you die? Why your dead body does not talk to me?

Next issue is intelligence? Intelligence is basically capability of taking action based on perception. So there are two components - perception - receiving information from the environment, and capability to take action - processing of information and then sending sensory signals to organs that move.

In this process, there is something that is receiving information, deciding what action to take, and then sending signals. Now is this your soul or your body?

If it is your body, then why a dead mean is incapable of intelligence? A dead man's brain is made of same chemicals that your brain is made of.

Food for thought....

Originally posted by yourmaker
evolution is the only answer i'm afraid, the god folks will salvinate from the mouth with this thread.

Did you forget the subject about nothing can come out of nothing.. So what was the first thing ever? What started evolution? Til that is no proved there is a change that god made it in some point and gave us evolution too to progress. You can't prove anything in this matter.

reply to post by vedatruth

Poppycock.
I believe in a higher power of creation and I believe in evolution. One does not preclude the other unless you are blindly rigid in your own beliefs. All you have to do is look around yourself to see that that position is untenable. How can you possibly say that god dosnt have it's hand in the evolutionary process? To just blindy presume you know what god wants or what ' the design' is well frankly just arrogant.
Life is wonderful, whatever the design behind it is a accept it

Originally posted by micmerci
I have a question for the pro evolutionist. I think that mathematically speaking, the population of the earth would be far greater than 7 billion if man has been here reproducing as long as the theory of evolution claims we have. Can someone validate/refute this mathematically?

Growth rate has been as low as 1% and as high as 2% as calculated since 1350 A.D. Sure this is not an exact science but it gives you a picture of the growth rate. This takes into account birth and death. This is not the birth rate, but the growth rate. So basically the further back in time you go the growth rate will tend to lower numbers as the death rate will increase. The lowest calculated of 1% was in 2009 the highest was in 1963 this is due to people becoming more “save the earth” oriented, as well as a few new diseases popping up to increase the death rate.

In 2009 the death rate was estimated to be .8% while in the middle ages the death rate is estimated at around 4%. There are still countries today pushing this 4% rate throughout Africa. So as you can see using 2009 as our example the death rate was only .8% while the overall growth was 1%. If you take this back to the middle ages you can extrapolate this with the death rate of 4% to mean global growth was very low, If not even negative at times. Looking at the data for the Middle Ages and back is obviously very hard. But if the death rate is at 4% to counteract this you will need a birth rate of at least this just to maintain your population. Since 1950 the recorded birth rates have never exceeded 4% the highest recorded is only 3.7%. With modern society the birth rates will be higher as more children will live, and death rates will be lower as less people die of starvation and disease.

During the plagues of the 14th century the world population actually dropped. It is estimated to have dropped from around 450 Million to something like 350 million. A setback like this is hard to recover from with the death rates of the time being so high without the plagues. Any real data before this time is very limited and sketchy at best so you can’t get good numbers before this time. Assuming before the plagues there were 450 Million people and the growth rate before this to be less than 1% due to the high death rate of these older civilizations, we will use 1% just for arguments sake…

If we work backward in time need to get the “growth formula” P=S(1+R)^T
P=Population / S=Starting Value / R=Growth rate / T=Time

So for regression to the point of 2 people

2=540M/(1.01)^t # 2(1.01)^t=540M # 1.01^t=270M # Log(1.01^t)=log(270M) # (t)log(1.01)=log(270M) # t=log(270M)/log(1.01) # t=1719

Or only 2,000 years, assuming the estimated world population is correct and that the growth rate was actually 1%. This would put us at something like 1000 B.C. which does not correspond to any theory, and is in fact absurd with the records of china and Egypt etc. However it is estimated that the further back you go the lower the growth rate gets due to higher death rates and lower birth rates, so this 1% is highly unlikely. On top of this we have things like the Toba eruption in 70,000 BC that is estimated to have reduced the world’s population to numbers as low 1,000 breeding pairs. As I mentioned before there is no way to calculate this growth rate much before the middle ages as there is no recorded data to go by. So basically you have to take it on faith, weather this faith is religious or scientific in nature, and make up your own mind. All data recorded since the Middle Ages would point to world population growth at far less than 1%, as the mortality rates would be far higher than anything we have seen in recorded histories. With no real agriculture and primitive hunting the ability to even sustain life is hard pressed. Add to this the lack of any medicine, or medical aid, even a broken leg means death in most cases. Thus the death rates would most likely have been far higher than 4%. Then take into account the same factors on birth rates. The chances of having living offspring are just as harsh. To be honest it is not really amazing that the population of the world is “so low” but that we are here at all. With all the odds stacked against humanity in ancient days, it is a wonder any survived at all. The truth must lie somewhere in the growth rates in these ancient times being staggeringly low, or even stagnant and negative at times such as the Toba Eruption and plagues suggest. And with this in mind remember that the lower the total population the harder it is to recover from an event like this. Just looking at the plagues in the 14th century, it took Europe about 200 years to regain is pre plague population. This is allowing for the immigration of outsiders as well. If this plague had decimated the world’s population in a similar manner we would be living in a far different world.

Originally posted by micmerci
I have a question for the pro evolutionist. I think that mathematically speaking, the population of the earth would be far greater than 7 billion if man has been here reproducing as long as the theory of evolution claims we have. Can someone validate/refute this mathematically?

You do know that there have been atleast 5 great extinction waves in our earth's history?
I am not even counting al the natural and universal disasters, plagues and other viral outbreaks that have plagued mankind since we climmed out of the trees.

First, science proving a theory incorrect and finding a hidden message would prove science a sound method.

Second, proving the existence of a soul would not prove creationism any more than the existence space, time and energy prove it; it could be simply a natural aspect of a non-created reality. In general, proving the existence of something attributed to religious dogma does not necessarily imply the truth of all its axioms, thus to prove the existence of god one must find direct evidence for god, not phenomena simply presumed (indeed, presumed) to be contingent upon the existence of one.

Argh. Most everyone's just having the wrong argument and asking the wrong questions. It is a bit entertaining to watch if nothing else. Proceed.

Originally posted by camaro68ss

Originally posted by jimbo999

Originally posted by camaro68ss
reply to post by jimbo999

 

so your telling me a big bang magically apeard to creat all things? sounds alot like god to me.

Nope - I''m NOT telling you that. Nor did I say anything along those lines. Trying to put words into other peoples mouths is a desperate act my friend. Do you have any rational explanation for life on this planet that does not involve evolution then?

No, all i have are theorys just like evolution. your theory says the big bang just came to be. why wouldent life just come to be as well? How did the big bang just come to be? you still have not awnsered my question. How did matter come to be? how did energy come to be? remember energy cant be destroyed or created? how did it get here then if it cant be created? From the magical big bang that came from nothing?

Please people... If one more person says "explain how the big bang came from nothing" I'm going to have to get involved! The big bang came from a singularity... Not from nothing. Please read up on what a singularity is claimed to be... It certainly is not nothing, in fact, quite the opposite...

I, like many others that have posted here, do not believe we can call either the theory of evolution, or creationism as correct... Although it is obvious that one has considerably more evidencethan the other.. Not to mention it ties in with logic and critical thinking... Which is how I personally come to my conclusions...

Occam's razor seems to suggest the answer.... Depending On how it is applied...

PA

Originally posted by k0mbination
reply to post by vedatruth

 

Poppycock.
I believe in a higher power of creation and I believe in evolution. One does not preclude the other unless you are blindly rigid in your own beliefs. All you have to do is look around yourself to see that that position is untenable. How can you possibly say that god dosnt have it's hand in the evolutionary process? To just blindy presume you know what god wants or what ' the design' is well frankly just arrogant.
Life is wonderful, whatever the design behind it is a accept it

Well define 'evolution' for me then?
I do not mean to be arrogant.
We have just started the discussion, so it is not yet time to judge.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Well when you ask if I believe in the big bang , belief is something reserved for things which dont have physical evidence in reality! As in do I believe in santa clause , or do I believe in Jesus or God.
For me there isnt as much direct evidence as to the existance of a higher power which created the earth and all the animals , other than a book and everyone who has been before that believes this book.

However there is direct evidence from observation that everything in the universe at one point was condensed into a singularity and then suddenly exploded into the universe. These observations have been backed up by many scientists and right now is our best understanding of how we came to be!

Sure we can argue what was before the big bang , god and he opened his mouth !
but I dont think that either .

I dont as such believe in the big bang , I think its our best attempt to explain how the universe came into existance , but there is obviously something far greater yet to be discovered.

All im saying is there is far more tangable evidence to prove our existance through science, than divine intervention as I believe sorry know for a fact that man created God and the concept of God. Whereas the univerese has been proven to exist before man even graced the earth!



My own personal theory on the concept of God , well this involves ancient alien theory , aliens knew the human race would be a force to be reckoned with , so back in the dawn of our species Aliens came to earth and introduced the God concept and religion . This religious concept would dumb found mankind for thousands of years and pit us against each other , to keep us from evolving as a whole , instead we are broken and have no unity as a species , therefore stopping us from moving out into the vastness of space!

reply to post by vedatruth


Evolution. The act of evolving. Something that everything in life does. It has no choice. Life evovles or it stops. Who is to say god dosnt direct evolution? Perhaps god created life to understand itself in which case life is god and god is evolving as well! Who knows and really why does it matter? All that really matters is who are you? Are you happy with your life and what can you do to be better at it.
But then that's just a part of my take on it

Originally posted by vedatruth

Originally posted by k0mbination
reply to post by vedatruth

 

Are you saying that if you have a soul then you can't believe in evolution?!??!

Yes!

If you believe in soul, you cannot believe in evolution. It is impossible.

Wow! What a narrow mind you have. Of course you can and people do inspite of this silly rule you've made up. To which discipline does this stupid rule belong?