Can you prove evolution wrong

reply to post by bottleslingguy

so then why do we need medical technology to fight disease and improve our life expectancy?

Other species of animal get sick and die. We use medical technology to extend our life expectancy, along with opening ourselves up to all of the deleterious effects that go along with a longer lifespan e.g. increased risks of cancer, Alzheimer's disease, etc.

why wasn't that all weeded out a long time ago?

Diseases evolve as well.

Why aren't we stronger after having to exist for thousands of years without technology?

I'm assuming you mean physically stronger. Why do we need to be stronger? Smart beats strong in survival -- by using tools, we can kill animals that are more than a match for us without them. Being stronger means increased muscles mass, muscle mass that has to be maintained by eating more.

If we are the result of millions of years of hominids existing off the land, why would we need to all of a sudden put on clothes?

I've seen itsthetooth make the same argument and I think you both have it backwards. We didn't suddenly need to wear clothes -- we moved out of our original ecological niche and were able to do so because we had the intelligence to fashion clothing.

Modern man does not fit in with the rest of the natural world.

Because our intelligence has allowed us to effectively become the apex predator of every ecological niche on the planet. We're the only global species, because we were smart enough to do it.

reply to post by Barcs

I am honestly speechless. I asked you to respond directly to the evidence and to post evidence of your theory and you ignored it plus side stepped every single question. This is simply an epic fail on your part. You are so stubborn in your ways, it's not even worth going back and forth anymore. You can't argue a simple point without tons of fallacies and ignored information.

Well let me go back, and see what I missed. I guess you must have missed the part where I have explained that biblical evidence is not available but evolution evidence should be.
Does that help?

If your talking about what you have provided me in links, I have answered in clear words back, showing that they are not proof of any type.

"All children under 10 would die without medical intervention" - Proven wrong, you change the subject to some link about which states in the US require vaccinations. That's called a red herring. Look it up. The government also requires you to pay taxes. Does that indicate we wouldn't survive without paying them?

Of course I'm exeggerating here but the fact is that living a life unvaccinated leaves you open to mass sickness. If I'm wrong then you need to contact the CDC asap and let them know we have all been wasting our time.

"Microevolution has never been observed in humans" - Proven wrong, regardless of trying to change the subject back to macroevolution and failing again to address races of human. Neanderthal isn't a race of human. Australopithecus Afarensis is not a race of human.

I know that, I used it to explain the possibility of someone we evolved from

You completely dodged the link I posted with 20+ different types of evidence for macro evolution. I'm seriously dying of laughter here. The one thing you have proven this entire thread, is that you are a troll and are clogging up what could be a very interesting thread with hypothetical nonsense. You responded to at least 40 pages of scientific facts and evidence with a one liner that didn't have anything to do with it, or show any quotes or ANYTHING. That is disrespectful and intellectually dishonest.

I have answered all comments that I'm aware of (and its not even my OP) and I have backed up as much as I can even though there is no proof from biblical times aside from documentation. I'm sorry if you missed something but if you feel I did, ask me again, I will answer.

I'm thinking your just not happy with my answers because they are the truth and the truth can be tough to swallow provided the subject here.

reply to post by uva3021

Lol humans can drink water, it doesn't have to be avion. I doubt the Myceneans drank avion water.

Well then you need to contact all of the city water municipalities know that you have realized we don't need treated water, its perfectly fine to drink it the way it is.

reply to post by iterationzero

What you have is beliefs founded on speculation with zero objective evidence for them, and therefore not proof. Further, I question your interpretation of many of the sources of information you're using to come to these conclusions. You lack understanding of the basic science that you're trying to use to support your claims e.g. you think that base pairs are genes. You have displayed an inability to read past the first two paragraphs of your own sources e.g. your adamancy about humans not being primates when your own source stated the opposite. Show some respect for the rest of us and try to engage everyone in this conversation on the same level at which we've been engaging you.

A belief would imply there is a faith behind it, and well no faith here, so your wrong there. It's an understanding, not a belief. You either understand it, or you don't. In your case, I don't think you do, or that you can. It is deep and complex and does require a lot of understanding.

There is clear documentated objective evidence, that you personally choose to rule out, so that doesn't make you right again.

Your profiling me again, and again.

Yes I understand that base pairs are not genes, it actually doesn't matter with anything I have included, FYI.

I have tried to include everyone, have I left anyone out?

reply to post by bottleslingguy

so then why do we need medical technology to fight disease and improve our life expectancy? why wasn't that all weeded out a long time ago? Why aren't we stronger after having to exist for thousands of years without technology? If we are the result of millions of years of hominids existing off the land, why would we need to all of a sudden put on clothes? Modern man does not fit in with the rest of the natural world.

This is why I keep telling them there is only one answer, we DE-EVOLVED.

reply to post by iterationzero


Well I thought I would included myself in the part of the convo since I was accused of not being good at including people in the conversation.

Other species of animal get sick and die. We use medical technology to extend our life expectancy, along with opening ourselves up to all of the deleterious effects that go along with a longer lifespan e.g. increased risks of cancer, Alzheimer's disease, etc.

Ok this keeps coming up, so maybe I can lay this to rest so that everyone gets it. Lets pretend for the moment that humans have never enguaged in the medical professions. First of all our species would have been extinct a long time ago. But lets pretend thats not the case, somehow we made it though. What would you think the life expectancy would be? 5 years, 20 years? Do you really think we were only suppose to live to be 20?

Granted we don't have to have vaccines, and in fact there are groups of people that never get them. The problem is that those people are subject to infection at any time in there life. Some of which can be fatal. Its a little complex but what it comes down to is due to the fact that we don't belong here on earth, we are in fact a virus. Mother earth will always treat us as such because we don't belong here. Part of that treatment is easy infection to various things.
To make matters worse, we are also carriers. So when you choose not to vaccinate its just a matter of coming into contact with someone thats infected, and your done for. IMO its like have unprotected sex with multiple partners, eventually your going to get hurt.

I'm assuming you mean physically stronger. Why do we need to be stronger? Smart beats strong in survival -- by using tools, we can kill animals that are more than a match for us without them. Being stronger means increased muscles mass, muscle mass that has to be maintained by eating more.

Your sidestepping his question by trying to answer an evolution question using adaptation. They are different, very different.

I've seen itsthetooth make the same argument and I think you both have it backwards. We didn't suddenly need to wear clothes -- we moved out of our original ecological niche and were able to do so because we had the intelligence to fashion clothing.

Do you honestly buy this? How did this work, did the viruse that evolved us make decisions and was smart enough to know that it would make us smart enough to move onto clothing? I don't think so.

Because our intelligence has allowed us to effectively become the apex predator of every ecological niche on the planet. We're the only global species, because we were smart enough to do it.

We are a global species because of three reasons.
First is that our intellegence allowed us to overcome the other life here.
Second we were pushed out from the other life with no where else to go.
Third we probably reigned as a main species on our home planet and expect the same.

reply to post by itsthetooth

Chimps have a 50 year life expectancy, early humans routinely lived into their 50s, so where has there ever been any indication that without modern technological advances in medicine we would only live to be from 5 to 20 yrs old. Albatrosses are sexually mature at 12 years old and live to be 50, so I guess aliens intervened on their "evolution" too?

You think natives of New Guinea who, for some, up until 1970, had not made contact with "civilized man" and still used stone tools, died instantly from drinking non-processed water and had a life expectancy of 5 years? They got along fine without us, and humans have got along fine for the million years previous without the need for bottled water or vaccinations, or clothing. Just because we have a brain doesn't mean we don't belong on earth. Silly.

I'll give you another example of evolution versus adaptation.

We needed protection for our feet from the harsh conditions of walking around barefoot.

Now had we evolved, our feet would have changed and adjusted in needed ways to compensate for the needs.
But that didn't happen, we failed to evolve.
So we took up the slack but adapting. We made shoes to protect our feet, then mother nature fought back by giving us fungus on our feet so we had to adapt again and made socks.

Some peeps on here have been trying to explain that our inteligence took over to protect us, but thats a form of intervention. Thats like saying a virus was smart enough to reprogram our inteligence knowing that we would be smart enough to make shoes. I'm sorry I just don't buy it.

Originally posted by itsthetooth
I'll give you another example of evolution versus adaptation.

We needed protection for our feet from the harsh conditions of walking around barefoot.

Now had we evolved, our feet would have changed and adjusted in needed ways to compensate for the needs.
But that didn't happen, we failed to evolve.

What theory says this? Mutation by necessity seems a bit too cosmic for me, and does not in any way agree with the modern scientific synthesis on evolution.

Why stop at feet? Why don't we blink sequentially? Certainly the extra 5% of our life with one eye open would help us dodge a spear or spot a tiger? I think it would be of great convenience if I were able to sense the world around me like a platypus, or use camouflage like a chameleon?

reply to post by BillyTJames


things going away because we don't need them is one thing (although i still don't understand where the "need" part fits in with what you are talking about) but I need wings so why don't I have them? are you saying homo erectus decided he needed a bigger brain 200,000 years ago so we rose out of their species decided we needed clothes and palaces so we came up with technology, math, science, language etc and that made up for a weaker body so now we have so much leisure time we don't need our wisdom teeth? modern man doesn't fit the evolution theory in my opinion. Sure enough we're related to every living thing on this planet but who's to say we are unique and not part of a much larger whole throughout the universe?

I think "evolutionists" have a problem with their egos and will not accept the thought that there are much older, smarter and wiser sapiens species than us out there. You don't find it odd that after millions of years of homo species reproducing without much change at all not only in morphology but also in the use of tools and then in the blink of an eye we pop up and start building huge stone structures? How was that conducive to survival? Why would we need to start worshiping gods and having huge wars? Where did they get these ideas of super humans flying around from planet to planet after basically just coming out of their caves? are you seeing where I'm going with that?

Originally posted by uva3021
What theory says this? Mutation by necessity seems a bit too cosmic for me, and does not in any way agree with the modern scientific synthesis on evolution.

Why stop at feet? Why don't we blink sequentially? Certainly the extra 5% of our life with one eye open would help us dodge a spear or spot a tiger? I think it would be of great convenience if I were able to sense the world around me like a platypus, or use camouflage like a chameleon?

edit on 29-12-2011 by uva3021 because: (no reason given)

it's a response to BillyTJames' idea of "genetic need" triggering the desired mutations. I was just questioning him on that.

reply to post by uva3021

Chimps have a 50 year life expectancy, early humans routinely lived into their 50s, so where has there ever been any indication that without modern technological advances in medicine we would only live to be from 5 to 20 yrs old. Albatrosses are sexually mature at 12 years old and live to be 50, so I guess aliens intervened on their "evolution" too?

We have clear documentation, showing that we were suppose to live to be 1000 years out of the bible. After punishments we were put down to 80.

Pye's SC skull is a good example of things that point in the same direction. It was thought to be a childs skull at first because of the differences, but they later realized that it is in fact an adult. It's got adult teeth with 5 more adult teeth waiting to come down. I think if we have documentation telling us, thats a pretty good clue alone. Pye also found altered segments in human DNA which could be how god executed these punishments.

You think natives of New Guinea who, for some, up until 1970, had not made contact with "civilized man" and still used stone tools, died instantly from drinking non-processed water and had a life expectancy of 5 years? They got along fine without us, and humans have got along fine for the million years previous without the need for bottled water or vaccinations, or clothing. Just because we have a brain doesn't mean we don't belong on earth. Silly.

My figures were exaggerated and rectally derived.

And its a hell of a lot more complicated than just that.
I asked this question before, and challenged anyone, and everyone including anyone on my side of this, to produce a reason or element that proves we belong on earth aside from water and air of course.

Just to show you how easy it should be, consider the Ant Eater. He has a long snout to sniff out the ants, and long claws to tear up there homes, sensitive ears to hear the ants, and a long sticky tounge to grab ants our of the hills.
If you were to ask him if he ever feels like he isn't at home, he would say he home for sure. Most of our life on this planet has a nich and fits in, we don't, so please tell me what our nich is.

reply to post by bottleslingguy

things going away because we don't need them is one thing (although i still don't understand where the "need" part fits in with what you are talking about) but I need wings so why don't I have them? are you saying homo erectus decided he needed a bigger brain 200,000 years ago so we rose out of their species decided we needed clothes and palaces so we came up with technology, math, science, language etc and that made up for a weaker body so now we have so much leisure time we don't need our wisdom teeth? modern man doesn't fit the evolution theory in my opinion. Sure enough we're related to every living thing on this planet but who's to say we are unique and not part of a much larger whole throughout the universe?

Agreed!

Aside from brains we actually got the short end of the stick, and hey where are my wings, I need them too. No one is ever going to convince me I evolved when I used to have a much better life as an Ape. I had a fixed fitted diet, excellent exercise, social structure, and no need to have to have medical intervention. So I'll say it again, if we evolved, we actually de-evolved.

I think "evolutionists" have a problem with their egos and will not accept the thought that there are much older, smarter and wiser sapiens species than us out there. You don't find it odd that after millions of years of homo species reproducing without much change at all not only in morphology but also in the use of tools and then in the blink of an eye we pop up and start building huge stone structures? How was that conducive to survival? Why would we need to start worshiping gods and having huge wars? Where did they get these ideas of super humans flying around from planet to planet after basically just coming out of their caves? are you seeing where I'm going with that?

I think there is a lot of truth in the bible where it talks specifically about aliens and other higher life forms. I think our planet was visited frequently and continued to be for some time.

reply to post by itsthetooth

Your source of "clear documentation" is the bible.

reply to post by bottleslingguy


Ok, evolution is a fact.... it happens... ok you cant deny evolution!!! if wings provided an evolutionary advantage then wings would be developed, but they havent because our brains have provided the adaptation of flight through the invention of aeroplanes!!! thats a rediculous example you provided

And i stated previously that i dont think humans evolved from apes so i dont know what your point is. Just because we may not have evolved from apes does not mean we are not evolving because evolution is a fundemental aspect of all physical life.... other wise there would be no way in which a species could adapt to changing environments. Can you see where im coming from?

why are there so many posts just saying "evolution is a fact"...we all know species evolve but what evolves them can be different things.

I wish people would just stop adding filler to threads. there is no telling how many replies say the same thing and NONE of them can account for every single change that has happened to the DNA of humans.


If you argue "evolution is a fact".... that includes assisted evolution... so what have you stated?

basically nothing.

reply to post by BlackSatinDancer

I wish people would just stop adding filler to threads

Sorry i hope this doesnt come across as rude but what have you just done? talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Im not opposed to assisted evolution, never said i was but it seemed as though bottleslingguy thought humans were exempt from any type of evolution, which simply isnt the case.

This thread is big enough, i doubt my little bit of filler is really going to have a massive impact.

yeah, it's certainly big enough.

I'm just saying, if you believe in assisted evolution then that is actually close to the creation theory.... just saying.

but creation theory is completely ludicrous to many who say that same old line "evolution is PROVEN".... which is why the argument goes ON and ON and ON....

I'm not saying your post is the only one like that.... not by a long shot, but I did try to divide a line there, you know. We ALL know something changed.... which is an evolution. many people think that to prove evolution on a small scale totally refutes creation theory, which it does not at all!

It's assisted evolution. Not saying it happened in a week, but that is still what it is. Something had a large part to play in many evolution theories... same as creationism. If neither can say what, why are we still arguing about it?

what we need to be doing is finding more facts but people just LOVE this... some are so vehement on their sides it isn't funny.

reply to post by BlackSatinDancer


You are right, im guilty of a few aimless posts. And to be honest id rather not look into the depths of the jungles to find my ancestors but rather look upto the stars.

The only problem is there is no real proof, only very circumstantial and anecdotal evidence to back up assisted evolution but so much evidence in favor of the out of Africa and Mulitregional hypothesis' for human evolution. Im completley opposed to creationism if they think dinosaurs and humans coexisted and the earth is only 6000 years old. I think i should stop with the filler now lol

Originally posted by BillyTJames
reply to post by BlackSatinDancer

 

You are right, im guilty of a few aimless posts. And to be honest id rather not look into the depths of the jungles to find my ancestors but rather look upto the stars.

The only problem is there is no real proof, only very circumstantial and anecdotal evidence to back up assisted evolution but so much evidence in favor of the out of Africa and Mulitregional hypothesis' for human evolution. Im completley opposed to creationism if they think dinosaurs and humans coexisted and the earth is only 6000 years old. I think i should stop with the filler now lol

hmm... I don't agree that the the out of Africa theory is so compelling if they think this just happened all by itself. on the other hand, assisted evolution in africa may be more plausible in my opinion. You see, i don't really care where the chimps came from and how they dispersed... i just think something weird happened because it completely changed species. I think maybe natural evolution created the races.... but to go from a chimp to a human is profound even for the given amount of time that the theories hold. other ancient species did not make any such leap away from their own natures. None, literally none.

why chimps... why not apes... why not baboons? ....we are not even talking about all the horses cows lions tigers... we are talking similar species.... this did not happen to THEM.

just food for thought.

tear away with your opinion as much as you want, but saying evolution is proven...well, it just doesn't say anything because most people know it's proven.

Still doesn't say what happened to US.

Chimps... men... what the hell happened to US?