Death-row inmate Troy Davis Denied Clemency

reply to post by Kryties


I think the system is not far off. They just need to actually have a strict criteria for the jury.
Look at the Casey Anthony case. That was an example of the justice system working properly. That was one girl up against most of the U.S. facing the death penalty, yet the jury was professional and the decided based on the evidence not letting their emotions or years of t.v. pundits judging leading up to the case affect their judgement.

People are still out there calling her guilty and saying it was an injustice, but that case was a beautiful example of the justice system working as it should. Unfortunately it's only in big cases like that where the jury is actually hand selected, intelligent professionals, capable of making an unbiased decision. That's how every jury should be.

Originally posted by redoubt

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by UniverSoul

 

I think 22 years is plenty enough of a sentence.Our justice system is out of whack.

A human life can be paid for with 22 years?

That's interesting.

dont you think that if we changed society from this type of view to a caring and helpfull view
we might actually stop crimes like this happening?

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


sentences wouldnt need to be based on time if we had an rehabilitation style treatment

reply to post by RoguePhilosopher


jesus, who himself was a victim of the death penalty, said " before you remove the splinter from my eye, you must first remove the log from your own eye."

this man should not be put to death. too often, people are denied because a politician, judge, or in this case, a board does not want to appear to be soft on crime. having some one's life in the hands of others like this is immoral.

reply to post by UniverSoul


Oh I agree with that completely. Some of the European countries put once murderers back on the street completely rehabilitated, and not schooled in being a criminal by hard time with other career criminals.

Not likely to happen in the U.S. though. So for the time being at least, we just really need to tweak our system and make damn sure that innocent or possibly innocent people aren't getting locked up.

Originally posted by UniverSoul

Originally posted by redoubt

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by UniverSoul

 

I think 22 years is plenty enough of a sentence.Our justice system is out of whack.

A human life can be paid for with 22 years?

That's interesting.

dont you think that if we changed society from this type of view to a caring and helpfull view
we might actually stop crimes like this happening?

Read your history. Capital punishment was gonner for a long time.... and during that time, violent crimes went up. It was because of public demand that it returned under a few new concepts so that the SCOTUS would approve.

The argument was that rehab doesn't work... so jails became strictly about punishment. Again, this is all fairly recent history.

I wasn't taking a side in this as much as commenting to some of the perceptions. Saying that a human life is worth 22 years caught my attention. That so many here feel sorry for Davis but completely ignore the guy who was shot to death... who also had a family who also grieves, is equally interesting.

we tend to be this way here at ATS. It's hot or cold, left or right, pro or con... there's only rarely much effort to take in a subject from the bigger picture. We prefer to argue the small segments of them.

Originally posted by redoubt
That so many here feel sorry for Davis but completely ignore the guy who was shot to death... who also had a family who also grieves, is equally interesting.

Seriously? Name one person in this thread that has said they don't give a hoot about the victims family - just ONE. You can't and you know why? Because nobody has said such a thing. Everybody in this thread feels for the victims family - we just feel that justice should be served instead of ignored.

Your assertion that people aren't thinking of the victims family is only to serve as a deflection of the topic away from whether the man sentenced to die deserves to be executed or not.

reply to post by UniverSoul

In a 2008 statement, then-Chatham County District Attorney Spencer Lawton described how Davis was at a pool party in Savannah when he shot another man, Michael Cooper, wounding him in the face. Davis was then driven to a nearby convenience store, where he pistol-whipped a homeless man, Larry Young, who'd just bought a beer.

Soon thereafter, prosecutors said, MacPhail - who was working in uniform, off-duty, at a nearby bus station and restaurant - arrived. It was then, the jury determined, that Davis shot the officer three times, including once in the face as he stood over him.

Good riddance.

The only issue I see is that the mother of the dead cop won't be at the execution. If the family can't bear to witness it, then it shouldn't be done, but she did say some family would be present, so............
well........bye.

reply to post by getreadyalready


And stuff the evidence that he may be innocent eh? Better kill him quick before somebody realises this is wrong and shows the system up for what it is eh?

Originally posted by UniverSoul

-the fact we hire lawyers to speak mumbo jumbo and confuse the jury

Correct. While perhaps not intended this way, the fact is that most trials are now nothing more than a representative from each side doing the best that they can to attract the jury to their strong points and guide the jury away from their weak points. It's more like two competing salesmen than a trial.

-the fact that humans have many psychological flaws that stop them from making a correct decision (judge or jury)

This is a tough one. Yes, humans have flaws, humans can be misled and tricked, and humans can also allow their own biases to affect their decisions. However, the Constitution does guarantee the right to a trial by a jury of one's peers. The alternatives are not better. At least with a jury it takes more than a single person's biases to affect the outcome. In other systems where there is no jury the defendant's fate can lie in the hands of a single jurist or leader.

-the police, evidence and laws are all misleading..

It's hard to say whether the laws and the rules regarding trials and evidence are intentionally misleading or just antiquated. However, I think most people would agree that the current system is anything but straightforward. As Lincoln said (I'm paraphrasing) anyone who defends himself has an idiot for a client. It's sad, but it's true. Our system is far too convoluted for a "regular" person to make sense of it.

The finality of the death penalty would indicate that it should not be imposed unless there is absolute certainty. You can't go back and release the guy afterwards, right?

Perhaps I would support the death penalty if our legal system hadn't devolved into such a circus.

Originally posted by Kryties

Originally posted by redoubt
That so many here feel sorry for Davis but completely ignore the guy who was shot to death... who also had a family who also grieves, is equally interesting.

Seriously? Name one person in this thread that has said they don't give a hoot about the victims family - just ONE. You can't and you know why? Because nobody has said such a thing. Everybody in this thread feels for the victims family - we just feel that justice should be served instead of ignored.

Your assertion that people aren't thinking of the victims family is only to serve as a deflection of the topic away from whether the man sentenced to die deserves to be executed or not.

I took a moment and beginning with the OP, the defendant's names is mentioned about 14 or 15 times and the victim's but once.

I wasn't trying to deflect anything. In fact, I made a point NOT to take direct sides in order to discuss this in a way where we could avoid the insults and backbites.

Kind of pointless, huh? I know.

Cheers

reply to post by blackthorne


If he guilty then he should die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it my brother or my friend or my.............he would die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If he not do then he should be set free.

BASIC

Originally posted by redoubt

Originally posted by UniverSoul

Originally posted by redoubt

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by UniverSoul

 

I think 22 years is plenty enough of a sentence.Our justice system is out of whack.

A human life can be paid for with 22 years?

That's interesting.

dont you think that if we changed society from this type of view to a caring and helpfull view
we might actually stop crimes like this happening?

Read your history. Capital punishment was gonner for a long time.... and during that time, violent crimes went up. It was because of public demand that it returned under a few new concepts so that the SCOTUS would approve.

The argument was that rehab doesn't work... so jails became strictly about punishment. Again, this is all fairly recent history.

I wasn't taking a side in this as much as commenting to some of the perceptions. Saying that a human life is worth 22 years caught my attention. That so many here feel sorry for Davis but completely ignore the guy who was shot to death... who also had a family who also grieves, is equally interesting.

we tend to be this way here at ATS. It's hot or cold, left or right, pro or con... there's only rarely much effort to take in a subject from the bigger picture. We prefer to argue the small segments of them.

first of all this is another problem in the legal system. if the cop shot troy he would probably be on a paid holiday, not being put to death. anyway..

im not talking about the death penalty im talking about our society in general today.
the saying goes - call a man a criminal and he will become a criminal
we live in a world ensumed by hate, fear and anything and everything else.
putting people to death is just adding to this

rehab certianly would work in many cases but only if we changed society. because living in the world we do it drives many to commiting crime.
nether the less it would have more sucsess then incarsiration (for 90% of cases)

Originally posted by redoubt

I took a moment and beginning with the OP, the defendant's names is mentioned about 14 or 15 times and the victim's but once.

Maybe because this thread is ABOUT the defendant and not the victims family? Maybe because everyone else in this thread but you automatically assumed that the feelings of the victims family was not in question here?

Why is it that when somebody questions something they perceive as wrong, somebody always pipes up and says "But think of the children/family"? Personally, if I were the victims family I would WANT the right person to be punished, not put somebody to death because of a desire to see SOMEBODY, nay ANYBODY punished just for the sake of it.

Originally posted by Kryties
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

And stuff the evidence that he may be innocent eh? Better kill him quick before somebody realises this is wrong and shows the system up for what it is eh?

No, it seems the evidence was enough to get the original conviction, and there seems to be no doubt that he is the same guy that shot someone in the face at a pool party, and pistol whipped a homeless guy at the convenience store. The only question is whether he shot the cop, and then stood over him, and 9 witnesses at the time seemed to be positive it was him. As years pass, their memories may have clouded, but since we know for certain that he shot someone in the face with the same gun, then I have no reservations with seeing him put down.

And this isn't killing him "quickly." It has been 3 years since his last execution was stayed, and plenty of years before that when the crime was actually committed.

What do you propose? Set him free because he is a good guy?

Or perhaps just spend $140k per year feeding and guarding him in a prison somewhere? Lets see at a 14% state income tax rate, it means 14 people will have to work full time and make $100k per year to support this one man in prison. That seems like a great way to spend our tax dollars.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
then I have no reservations with seeing him put down.

Put down? There's that blood lust I described in my first post - this is how psychopaths value the lives of other people, that one can be "put down".

Or perhaps just spend $140k per year feeding and guarding him in a prison somewhere? Lets see at a 14% state income tax rate, it means 14 people will have to work full time and make $100k per year to support this one man in prison. That seems like a great way to spend our tax dollars.

Tsk tsk, you pro-execution advocates always seem to gloss over the fact that it costs MUCH more to execute somebody than it does to incarcerate them for life. I wonder why you do that? Hmm.

Here's a couple of sources to back that up, I can provide PLENTY more if needed....

www.msnbc.msn.com...
outofthestormnews.com... ter/

Originally posted by Kryties

Originally posted by redoubt

I took a moment and beginning with the OP, the defendant's names is mentioned about 14 or 15 times and the victim's but once.

Maybe because this thread is ABOUT the defendant and not the victims family? Maybe because everyone else in this thread but you automatically assumed that the feelings of the victims family was not in question here?

Why is it that when somebody questions something they perceive as wrong, somebody always pipes up and says "But think of the children/family"? Personally, if I were the victims family I would WANT the right person to be punished, not put somebody to death because of a desire to see SOMEBODY, nay ANYBODY punished just for the sake of it.

Well, the humanity play kind of sputters when you get all blustery about one set of humans suffering but either ignore or shout down another group that is directly related to it.

Take that as you please. It's entirely up to you.

In this thread, capital punishment is being argued mostly from a political standpoint. This really hasn't taken a humanitarian course as much as how this guy got a raw deal or that he's spent enough time already or that someone changed their mind about what they saw years after the fact.

If you want to end the process of executions, try the ballot box and a letter writing campaign to your representatives. Barking at me doesn't win you a damned thing except a little cyber ink and maybe a few stars.

Originally posted by redoubt
If you want to end the process of executions, try the ballot box and a letter writing campaign to your representatives.

I don't need to, here in Australia we got rid of the death penalty a long time ago - you see we realised how barbaric and backward it truly is.

reply to post by Kryties


I've seen that data before, but it is extremely flawed. The costs include all the mandatory appeals, and the 20 year incarceration during the appeal process and the care for the individual, not just the execution. We would have all of that cost whether we executed them or not.

There is no way to rationalize the costs of an additional 20+ years of incarceration vs. a $15 injection or a $4 bullet or a re-useable rope.

Maybe it is a bloodlust....so what? A predator chose to strike out against innocent people, and so we take him down. Why is it any different than a rabid dog, or alligator, or mountain lion? If a predator is loose in our city, we take it out.

The guy is guilty of multiple crimes that day, including a shooting, and the overwhelming proof is that his last victim was an off-duty cop coming to the aid of an innocent victim. "Put him down" was my nice version of my empathy for the man. If the victims were my family, and if this man were in my care, he wouldn't be so lucky to get a quick injection.

Originally posted by Kryties

Originally posted by redoubt
If you want to end the process of executions, try the ballot box and a letter writing campaign to your representatives.

I don't need to, here in Australia we got rid of the death penalty a long time ago - you see we realised how barbaric and backward it truly is.

Maybe you're right but... try not to wear your superiority on your sleeve or it really loses it's luster.

To be honest, I kind of half expected the victim's family to come forward and support the clemency request, albeit regrettably. People often claim to want the closure that comes with seeing the execution of someone who killed a loved one... but later find that it did the opposite.

It's a tough call.