What would you do if you 'knew'?

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


Well in my opinion it is sin to raise you hand against your brother and all humans are brothers, however some forsake humanity and a human who abandons their soul should probably be destroyed so in the Hitler situation if I had reason to believe he had already abandoned his humanity I'd probably have to kill him but I would be willing to pay with my life which you seem to be implying would be the cost for taking his life which I feel would be exceptable. Under any other circumstances the answer is a resounding 'no', though a few months ago I probably would have said I'd destroy him if I couldn't join him.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


Not So Too Many Variables Too Many Outcomes.

Think About It

reply to post by MoralityMatters


I realize this is a statement to F.F. but I would like to throw my two cents in on this topic.

I realize what you are saying in regards to killing a human being and by your statement I assume you are a spiritual person, thus my next question. Is it not considered to be the highest sacrifice of ones self in giving ones life to save others even in the eyes of God?

reply to post by MoralityMatters

in the Hitler situation if I had reason to believe he had already abandoned his humanity I'd probably have to kill him but I would be willing to pay with my life which you seem to be implying would be the cost for taking his life which I feel would be exceptable.

I've made my opinion well known, but now to play devil's advocate, this is exactly what many cannibals think. All other tribes beyond their own are just animals. There is no humanity in a person that looks different, speaks a different language, etc. Therefore they have no moral issue with hunting and eating them.

So, what is "humanity" that makes it ok to kill one and not another?

I don't have that moral problem, I have no problem killing any clear threat to my family human or otherwise, and I have no problem giving my life in the process (although I'd rather avoid it). Right is might.

Personal story:
I have a cousin facing attempted murder charges right now, because he and his family were being stalked by a psycho, and there are plenty of restraining orders and police reports to back it up. The guy showed up one morning at 3 a.m., beat on the door, and hit my cousin in the head with a hammer, my cousin fell in a stupor and fired off some shots. The guy tried to run, but the bullets hit him in the back as he ran out the front door and lay in the front yard. To the police, it looks like a shot in the back of a fleeing man.

In my world, at the first sign of a threat, I would have creeped in during the night, and taken the fight to the threat instead of letting it come to me. More decisive and less complications. My cousin is lucky his family and he survived, and now he will likely face severe legal repercussions. I won't ever find myself in that predicament. I will be more proactive.

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman

You really have no idea how important this was.

Coincidence? … or Synchronicity? I know what I choose.

Thank you for pushing me to prepare for this.

You were already incredibly well prepared, for virtually anything... I really want thank you for all of your amazing contributions to this thread. The one you've quoted your post here, was a very real wow moment.

There was one in particular, that quite literally nearly floored me earlier in the thread... This one:

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
So, shall I go through this thread now for a clear consensus, or wait for more responses?

Although consensus is a good method for some applications, murder is not one of them. Each person must be true to their own conscience and accept the consequences of their actions whether they be good or bad. It is much easier to discuss it on a website anonymously than to actually carry out either choice. I hope to never be in a situation where I'm forced to make this choice.

Such simplicity and clarity was completely unexpected, and a pleasant surprise for me.

No, really thank you, and I hope you really do understand now, what I really meant when I said that this thread was never about me, in any way shape or form.

I just wanted to pitch in, again, briefly.

I am grateful, as I imagine most are, for having been able to take part,

I'm sure it was a wake up call to many of us.

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman

I think you may have done more with this thread than you had intended. I have to say that I am very glad to have participated

Wholeheartedly agree.

reply to post by Mouldilocks


Thank you for your great contributions here.

Also getreadyalready, prolific! and very much appreciated.

ALL of YOU, who dared to "go there" in one way or another in this thread.. Thank you very much.

And to anyone who has been reading, but was unsure what to make of all of it, or afraid to jump in... It's okay now.. It is safe... You can chime in if you want.

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
reply to post by Mouldilocks

 

Thank you for your great contributions here.

Also getreadyalready, prolific! and very much appreciated.

ALL of YOU, who dared to "go there" in one way or another in this thread.. Thank you very much.

And to anyone who has been reading, but was unsure what to make of all of it, or afraid to jump in... It's okay now.. It is safe... You can chime in if you want.

edit on 20-9-2011 by Fractured.Facade because: (no reason given)

Yes, I will...
Did you not tell us what your own "decision" would be after your own theoretical warning period had elapsed?
It's late on the East Coast US, so maybe I missed something from you concerning that?
I still think that we have been used for your own design. Has this been a "thesis" or psychological study on your part? Now's the time for you to come clean, as the deadline has expired. Please inform us of what your true intentions have been concerning this exercise,

Originally posted by QueSeraSera

Yes, I will...
Did you not tell us what your own "decision" would be after your own theoretical warning period had elapsed?
It's late on the East Coast US, so maybe I missed something from you concerning that?
I still think that we have been used for your own design. Has this been a "thesis" or psychological study on your part? Now's the time for you to come clean, as the deadline has expired. Please inform us of what your true intentions have been concerning this exercise,

I did... here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

For what it is worth.

I also said this in an earlier post:

There is no collected data to elaborate on, it was not a lab experiment, with controls and conclusive results to offer you.. What you take from this, is yours and yours alone.... I have maintained that this was never about me, in any way shape or form. I made no judgement, nor decision, nor choice.

Ultimately, I wanted to do something different, with some risks involved that would help me understand how people would react with something like this... Some of you (you know who you are) thought that there was a possibility this may be real... Through that slight sense of realism can come a kind of inward clarity that may otherwise be missed..... How often can you get a true glimpse inside of your own soul, and the souls of others?

What this was, or was not, meaning etc is entirely up to you.

A 22-page exercise in ultimate futility, with no real solution provided. Just your calm platitude that "the answer" is in how each of us perceives it. I have to hand that to you...you are an expert button-pusher. I didn't discover anything new about myself while pondering your scenario, either, I only wasted my time. Congratulations on playing us all for fools.

reply to post by QueSeraSera


Something certainly has pushed your buttons here, but I'd venture a guess that I had nothing to do with that, nor did this "exercise in ultimate futility".

That said, there were no fools here. Not one.

Thank you for the comments, and for wasting your time here.

Looks like I might be too late to contribute to this discussion, but I feel strangely compelled to add my thoughts on the matter.

This foreknowledge was not an accident... It was a gift. My opinion is that the person with this gift was meant to use the information at their disposal to decide for those who are unable to decide for themselves. If I were that person, there's no doubt that I would kill the man in question.

I'm not "religious", but I trust my personal connection/relationship with a higher power. I do believe if I were given this gift (foreknowledge of events with an opportunity to prevent terror), I would be expected to use that information to save innocents and fight evil... and that I will ultimately be forgiven for my actions.

reply to post by Crixus


It's never too late.. anyone is free to post anything they want here, within the site (ATS) terms and conditions.

Thanks for an interesting contribution.

I would manipulate hitler with my knowledge of the future and diffuse the situation.

Id shake his hand and say congrats for comeing second heres your silver medal, better luck next time

reply to post by getreadyalready


I believe "loss of humanity" constitutes a concious decision to forsake any and all other life manipulating or destroying all around to accomplish your goals it is a designation reserved for the only the greatest monsters of our race, though I acknowlege there are many on the path to this there are few who have completely tossed,( not sell, selling requires one to place value on something), their soul away. I was once aiming for such a future, anyone who abandons or has really considered abandoning their humanity knows what I speek of, those who would sell out their own man, their brother for power. Essentially the purest form of psychopathy, though if a way to save such people were discerned I'd be certainly willing to try.

Originally posted by Agarta
reply to post by MoralityMatters

 

I realize this is a statement to F.F. but I would like to throw my two cents in on this topic.

I realize what you are saying in regards to killing a human being and by your statement I assume you are a spiritual person, thus my next question. Is it not considered to be the highest sacrifice of ones self in giving ones life to save others even in the eyes of God?

edit on 20-9-2011 by Agarta because: (no reason given)

Indeed, and I believe it is the greatest honor to give up your life to save that of another and I intend to go that way, but how can one known without a shadow of a doubt that a greater evil would not result from such action. Evil plus evil equals 2(evil) , what if ; in the case of the hitler example, by murdering him you make him a martyr and incite a panicked and loyal mass to do openly what he would have done in secret, meaning what if out of outrage the german populace casts the blame upon the jews or another country or some other group and then petition their leaders to destroy these people and of course their government would oblige them and a greater loss of life occurs than that of what would have without your intervention. Its a prime example of unintended consequence. In an attempt to prevent an evil you comit and evil act (murder) and through your actions a greater evil is acheived.
oh and appologies for such a belated reply I've been quite busy and when I do come to the site I always get sucked into an article before I can even sign in.

Originally posted by Akasirus

Originally posted by SmokeyDawn

Originally posted by muzzleflash
There is no moral dilemma, no quandary of philosophy.
You either believe that murder can be a means to an end, or you do not.
I do not.
I do not like that end.
I want a new beginning.
The 'final solution' is not acceptable for anyone. Not even the devil himself.
To win this war you must stand your ground.
Good does not commit evil to accomplish good.

Exactly!! Why is this so difficult for people to understand?? The end does NOT
justify the means!! In fact, if there's a need to justify an action at all it's the
WRONG action!!

Why is it so difficult for people to understand? Because the world is not as black and white as you make it. You justify every action you take every day, whether you realize it or not. You take different actions in different circumstances, according to what would be most beneficial to a desired outcome; it's called rationalization.

Would you push a child out of the way of a bus to avoid his imminent death? Even though it might mean he would get a little scraped up on the pavement? It's certainly not something you would normally do, but you could justify it because it prevented him from getting splattered on the underside of the bus. Or do the ends never justify the means, and you let the child die because to physically harm him would be 'wrong'?

What if you didn't even have to harm anyone, you just had to tell a little lie. A mother and child come running by you, and they quickly hide down a dead end alley. A thug comes along, intending to murder the mother and child, and asks you if they went down that alley. You could tell him you haven't seen them, and save their lives. Or do you offer them up and say "Sure thing, they are right down there, have at it!", because saving their lives does not justify the lie you had to tell to get there?

Yes, in an ideal world we'd never have to comprimise our moral integrity. But sometimes we have to sacrifice a lesser moral for one we hold much closer. War is about standing your ground, but peace is about compromise. I know which one I'd rather have.

How about I snatch up the child and ignore the thug altogether?? No harm to the child (though probably startled & frightened), no harm to the mother & child either as well as no lie!