What would you do if you 'knew'?

reply to post by LunaKat


Through out the thread, he often discounted the "theoretical" by following it up with ??? or "or is it?" He was never definitive.

But, what would you alert authorities to? An anonymous poster on a loony website that had a vision?

In all likelihood it was theoretical. Even if it was real to someone, it was likely a schizo moment, or a lucid dream. The chances of it being real are almost nil.

Would your opinion on whether or not to act have changed if it wasn't hypothetical? It appears your opinion would have changed! Alerting the authorities is in fact "acting." Therefore, your stance on the issue has changed?

reply to post by getreadyalready


I still never doubt for one minute that it was anything but hypothetical. And yeah, I would try to find proper authorities to report it too. And no, if it was as real as it gets I would still not do it.

I was one of the ones who was against Bush going in and declaring war immediately after 9-11. I thought it was a rash decision and would be regretted. I was called anti-American and every name in the book. I stood by it and was right. And I would stand by this one too.

reply to post by getreadyalready


I'm surprised you are a forum moderator..for real? If you thought this was legitimate why didn't you remove the thread?

reply to post by getreadyalready


What could you have possibly given the authorities to work with here?

What could the person in the scenario possibly provide to the authorities that they would believe and act upon?

Or would you report the author of this thread, because he failed to murder someone?

The dilemmas here are never ending, but the outcomes were always the same.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


So how has the collective delt with this potential issue in your eyes Fractured.Facade?

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


I'd like to reserve my personal assessment on this for now, and leave that up to anyone who participates here to assess, each on an individual and personal level.

For now.

Originally posted by LunaKat
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

I'm surprised you are a forum moderator..for real? If you thought this was legitimate why didn't you remove the thread?

edit on 20-9-2011 by LunaKat because: (no reason given)

Remove it for what? Does it violate any Terms and Conditions?

I didn't say it was legitimate, I just said it wasn't necessarily hypothetical. Maybe it was entirely real to one person? Maybe it was a vision, or maybe it was a schizo episode. I have a couple of acquaintances that hear voices and act upon them, and they are constantly in and out of jail, on and off their meds, etc.

You are the one that said you would call authorities. Call them for what? A quasi-hypothetical discussion of an anonymous person's vision?

Sorry, but the thread is acceptable, the mind experiment is acceptable, the only thing unacceptable to me is all the people claiming they would not act, because it is politically correct to take that approach, but then when faced with the situation possibly being real, they reverse their stance and say someone should act? Which is it? What does your conscience say? If the situation was entirely real, should someone act or not?

reply to post by getreadyalready


Oh boy, where do I start? First of all getreadyalready, you are sitting on the fence. You are trying to take both sides without committing to anything. You won't take a stand on whether or not you felt it was legitimate or hypothetical. Its probably useless to even debate this with you.

But you want to know my stand on this..not that you deserve it but here goes. Yes I would *try* to report it to authorities..I probably would have started with Administrators of this site but if you are an example of them, now I know that would have been wasted time. The challenge was to decide if a man lives or dies. There have been instances on the Internet where people have killed themselves based on stuff written about them on the internet. And I'm sure there have been death threats as well. Things like this are taken more seriously now.

You mentioned earlier that the poster was anonymous. But unless ATS is somehow blocking it, all people that use this site have IP addresses which can be traced. So its not all that anonymous.

I don't have an opinion about what you find acceptable or not. Thats up to you. I have already stated and re-stated what I would do. We were each entitled to participate with our own morals and beliefs. You'll have to deal with that on your own.

I think what is far more interesting and revealing is the aftermath of this experiment.

There's an old saying....1 person can change the world.

Not really true anymore with todays technology and killing tools.


As for Hitler....

What if he was told by Alienz that the Jewz and their Greed economics would cause the downfall of civilization and pollute the Earth...destroy the human DNA which could never be fixed....the Jews and their schemes would kill Billions as they enslaved the planet.....

Wouldn't that explain wacky Hitler's extreme for a clean Earth, clean DNA...and kill GREED?

But alas poor Hitler failed. 1 man may have been told of Earth's future...and the demise of humanity....

Not even he could stop our downfall though.

Greed wins every time. The former Nazi scientist Von Braun said they wanted to give America their nuclear bombs/technology because we were a "Christian Nation" and he didn't think we would use them.

Kaboom...we used them. We ain't a Christian Nation.

Go back thru history and why did Japan have a Samurai Civil War? They killed all foreigners and closed their cities to the world. US Navy rolled in and said open up to "trade" or your cities will be bombed.

Forcing Japan to modernize to serve their masters...they quickly used the same tactic around the Pacific on other countries...and when America stopped selling Japan crude oil...they said "open up to trade or be bombed".

We chose to get bombed. Justified us annihilating them and making them our slaves forever.

It's cyclic...even if you kill the 1 in charge...doesn't matter. There's a dark room full of men somewhere's calling the real shots in the world.

Originally posted by LunaKat
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

Oh boy, where do I start? First of all getreadyalready, you are sitting on the fence. You are trying to take both sides without committing to anything. You won't take a stand on whether or not you felt it was legitimate or hypothetical. Its probably useless to even debate this with you.

Easy now... lets not attack ANYONE here for their positions on the subject of this thread.

Also being a moderator or not here, is completely irrelevant... He is a person, just like the rest of us... Respect that, debate what you want, discuss what you want.. There are no labels here... we were all, always in this together.

reply to post by LiveEquation


Uh, excuse me, but your ignorance is laughable! He said "Thou shalt not MURDER!!" Murder is the killing of an innocent.

He said if someone murders, then execute them!

He, knowing every atom in the universe, said kill those nations because they were even murdering their own babies. Hmmmm sound familiar?

Before you speak, I'd suggest doing a little word study. But you probably already think you know more than Him anyway. RIGHT?

reply to post by LunaKat


I'm not on the fence about whether or not this was real or hypothetical, those facts are unknown. I've stated many times that in all likelihood it is only hypothetical, or some type of social experiment, but my opinion does not make it so. It could be real, and all of my responses have assumed it is real, otherwise the experiment is dead before it starts.

As to ATS Admin, people do alert posts every now and then when they think someone is in danger, and those alerts don't go anywhere. ATS is entirely anonymous unless some government authority issues a subpoena saying otherwise. Even with a subpoena many posters hide their identities through proxies and such.

My concern is that so many people are unwilling to act when they have an opportunity to do so. In my opinion that is the problem with the world today, especially the US. People all expect someone else to have more information, or more responsibility and therefore they expect someone else to act. Many, many studies have proven that a group of people will not intervene in a crime, because each person expects someone else to intervene. However, a single person will almost always intervene. People are either cowards, or they are just irresponsible, or they are conditioned in such a way to expect someone else to protect them. People have sued municipalities in Florida for shark attacks! They claimed the city didn't do enough to make the Atlantic Ocean safer!!

My emotion is a result of the inaction of our society, and this thread was a part of that. Everyday, people all over the country contribute to the downfall of this society, and they expect someone else to fix it. I have two young sons, and I don't want the world they inherit to be left in shambles.

The posters such as yourself in this thread embarrass and concern me for our future.

Getreadyalready, I thought it was proven this was hypothetical..I gave you a quote that showed it was theoretical (close enough). But if that isn't good enough for you, fine, thats up to you.

You know generally I would agree with you 100% that people don't act when they could. If I saw someone bullying someone else I always jump in. And when I taught kids, I never allowed it. When someone around me needs help, if I'm able to help I always do.

What made this different imo is this was considering ending a life (hypothetically). Thats not up to me. Even if I felt as so many did that he deserved to die..what makes it *me* that is equipped to do that? When I take a car to a mechanic I know he is able to fix my car. But I don't want him handling a root canal. If I get a vision, I was the one meant to get a vision..not necessarily the one meant to investigate it with arms..thats for people good at that, not me. That is still taking action. That is relaying information to someone better equipped to handle it.

But then, your stand is totally confusing. You above all the rest of us here were equipped to handle it. If you had even an inkling of a doubt (which I don't have, I still say it was an experiment to challenge us) you had the authority to act and close the thread and you did not. That was irresponsible. If a death could of occured from this thread, you did not stop it --but I am totally not saying that that would happen here. Hypothetically again is all I'm saying. We could speculate, you could act and did not.

I did not know that ATS doesn't log IP addresses --my fault most likely for not reading that somewhere here on site. I will withdraw my membership cause I don't find that too responsible.

reply to post by LunaKat


ATS does log IP addresses, they just don't release the addresses without a subpoena (which as far as I know has never happened. Bill and Mark have commented on it a few times in the Board Questions forum.). The information is there of course, but as I said, many people take precautions when surfing the net, and as you might expect Conspiracy Theorists take the most precautions.

As for this thread ending someone's life. The OP was very clear that in the vision all possibilities had been exhausted, calling the authorities or finding some other alternative were all ineffective. There was only a single choice. Either decision resulted in loss of life, either the evil offender, or the millions he would infect. Closing the thread would not have changed the outcome of the scenario, it would only have changed the discussion surrounding it.

We seem to agree in some ways, but you waffle when it comes to actually doing the deed. If you received the vision, then you were the one tasked with the responsibility, and you agree that too many people shirk their responsibilities, yet you have said you would not act? It makes no sense to me. Either one is part of the problem or part of the solution. Inaction is the problem.

Without the realism it would have never worked. I planned out all of my posts from beginning to end, including this one, and anticipated many of the responses and my replies to them... You had to be unsure, and may still be.

So....

Just in case, I'll step forward now and accept full responsibility for your collective will to inaction, should anything actually happen.... It was all my fault... Feel better now?

Getreadyalready, you have my IP info, so should you feel it necessary for retaliation, you know where I am.

But, who would have been blamed if it all had gone another way?

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


Thank you for your posting you opinion.


To the whole of the thread,

I am not actually surprised that the consensus has come to this conclusion. It saddens me but I am not surprised. This explains, in not so many words, why the people have become slaves to the system as their own derrieres are more important to them than their own future generations.

I was asked in another thread if I would save humanity if I had the power to do so and was attacked when my answer was, I didn't think I would due to my feelings that it was not deserved. So, in this thread I changed my position to do, to act, and the consensus only showed I was right in the first thread.

People(not all) on this site talk the talk of suppression and slavery to the ptb but the walk is restricted to bathroom and kitchen.

Thank you Fractured for showing the true nature of people today.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade

But, who would have been blamed if it all had gone another way?

If the vision had been mine, I would have gladly taken responsibility.

But as I type this, I am thinking, if someone had acted upon this thread, would any of us want responsibility for that action? I wouldn't want it. I'd be happy with my own responsibility, but I'm not so eager to take on someone else's responsibility.

Kat has accused me of riding the fence, and in this case, she is correct. If FF had gone out and murdered some guy and told the police it was because of a vision and the undue influence of GRA, I don't think I would want to take responsibility for that.

To be honest, as I started typing this response, it read differently in my mind, and I was ready to mirror FF's statement, and put myself out there on the line.............. but as I started typing, I realized how insane that would be! I don't want the responsibility of someone else's actions, especially since they are possibly mentally ill and hearing voices (not you FF).

reply to post by Agarta


My first objective was to escape the same old stuff that had been done to death here, but the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to create something that would leave anyone brave enough to participate, something of lasting value... Lot of thought and planning, I was never interested in flags or stars, but I was incredibly interested in replies... Got more than I had anticipated, way more... a super bonus there! I knew I would be pushing up against some clearly defined boundaries, so care had to be taken in that regard.

Sometimes the best way to understand the world we live in is to have to look at it from deep within ourselves, some people will not go there willingly.

I am amazed with your admission here Agarta, that because of member reactions to your post in another thread, you changed willingly before posting here... That is a shocker for me, never really took you as one who would always follow the pack...

I could go on and on here, but there is already enough material in this thread, and it really never was about me.

Thank you for the comments and all of your contributions.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


Thank you, I think maybe my true nature has been lost, and there are those that may find me as ridiculously judgmental of the Human race. It seems to me while contemplating this thread(very well done on your part, might I say) and the other thread I mentioned, that it is easy to contemplate what I would do given a situation, as this has been posed, but being in the position itself is a totally different thing.

As I look back at the situations within my existence here on Earth and my actions in regards to those experiences, I find that the only times I have had a hard time, both mentally, spiritually, and physically, is due to non action. My Love for the Human race and its progression has always been important to me, and Life itself held in even higher regard. I think maybe my frustration of the situation mankind is in at the moment has caused my judgement to be as it is. I see people as individuals not race, orientation, or country affiliation but when I must look at the whole of Humanity I must look at its past actions and what it, as a whole, is doing not the individual thoughts of each, and what I see is saddening.

The History of mankind as a whole is conflict and war or suppression and compliance. I would think that we as conscious beings could have over come this mentality by now and found unity within desires for the future. We as a people should not need someone to hold our hand and tell us what is wrong or right(as Adults).

Am I above this? No not at all time for sure. I think my lack of compassion is fueled by the lack of compassion found in society today as well as the lack of forgiveness and moving on and forward. I see us,Mankind, as stagnant in this area of existence. Do I see and feel this to be true in the individual? Yes, from person to person.
What is the answer? Well in my mind it is the desire to be better as individuals on a whole of Humanity level.

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
Got more than I had anticipated, way more... a super bonus there!

Sometimes the best way to understand the world we live in is to have to look at it from deep within ourselves, some people will not go there willingly.

I think you may have done more with this thread than you had intended. I have to say that I am very glad to have participated. The reason is that through the multiple posts back and forth between the two of us, I came to the following conclusion and posted this statement last night:

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman

However, what you may have neglected to notice is that inherent in my response is this man’s sole personal responsibility for determining just how certain he is of both the danger present and the solution’s effectiveness to mitigate the danger. I do know that we do have influence over other people but how those people respond to influence is solely up to them. I do also know that it is wise when counseling someone that you do not take responsibility and ultimately accountability away from them by telling them what to do.

So, I disagree that what happens between now and then is up to US. It is firmly and totally up to the person to make the choice – and ultimately take responsibility for it.

The reason that this is so important is that I really needed that clarity today.

Choices and holding oneself responsible for the choice made came up in a very real, very impacting way today. Someone very close to me told me something today that, had I not already “verbalized” my feelings about this in this thread last night, I would not have been able to really help this person at all. I am very sure I would have solved their problem for them, which is really what they wanted even though they didn’t know it and which is also what I have done for, or to, them countless times before. I have a great deal of influence or “power” over this person, however, I love them too much to abuse that power by telling them what to do in this particular instance because the decision they make now will impact the rest of their life. Hopefully they learned something today about the responsibility of freedom.

You really have no idea how important this was.

Coincidence? … or Synchronicity? I know what I choose.

Thank you for pushing me to prepare for this.