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Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by snowcrash911
1) For the bow in theory to work, the trusses are required not to fail.
2) Failure of truss components does not automatically mean failure (as in collapse) of the whole truss.
Bottom line is, the fact the trussed did not collapse means that the bowing inward theory is plausible. Had the trusses collapsed before they could exert any inward force, the theory would be very unlikely. All the rest is just a semantics game.
Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by psikeyhackr
THen how did it collapse? We are pages in so # or get off the pot. What was the outside energy source??? That is the point of the OP. I say no, so there is nothing to prove. They came down. End of story.
Spit it out....
Originally posted by peck420
Originally posted by Kester
After the dust had cleared some parts of the outer wall could be seen still standing and had to be cut apart and demolished during the clean up operation. My question is, if these enormous towers fell down in a gravitational collapse why didn't they land on the lower parts of the wall? Surely these walls couldn't possibly survive the enormous weight responsible for the destruction of the buildings? Due to the design I would expect the upper parts to descend vertically and crush the lower parts. What am I missing here?
The usual culprit is other debris.
Basically, the debris that has fallen can act as support to structures that have not yet fallen, making them incredibly strong for a short period.
Take 6 tooth picks and make a single 'wall' (2 horizontal (top and bottom) and 4 vertical (equally spaced).
Try to stand it up. It will be very difficult.
Take a pile of sugar and place the 'wall' into the sugar deep enough that you can provide a flat base on top.
Add weight.
You now have a wall that could not stand by itself easily capable of handling loads far exceeding it's design capabilities.
Now repeat very fast and you have what happens to the lower assembly of many buildings that collapse without design.
You can note that in controlled demolitions, they will specifically try to avoid this by blowing out key points prior to and during the collapse.
Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by snowcrash911
Its not often someone proposes an alternative theory. How did the core columns move in your theory?
Originally posted by Kester
Thank you for taking the time to explain. My sugar and toothpick model performs as stated when motionless. However when the 'churning mass' credited with reducing the buildings and contents to the state preserved on the Fresh Kills landfill is replicated by pouring the sugar..... Well let's put it this way, I wouldn't trust my life on the structural integrity of those toothpicks.
In most controlled demolitions much of the debris is found in large chunks which would have the potential to interfere with the collapse of lower segments of the structure. I'm not sure the comparison is accurate. We must remember of course the WTC Disaster was a gravitational collapse and not an explosive event in which some materials were blasted outwards rather than descending in the direction gravity dictates.
I am aware through experience that demolition can be a lot harder than anticipated. Forgive me for sounding illogical but I have personally seen part of a building refusing to fall as if the memory of standing there for so long was keeping it up. The wall of the pentagon stubbornly refused to fall in spite of the damage caused by that large, rapidly moving jet. It stood for some time, the roofline dipping and obviously about to fall, allowing some fairly clear photographs of the hole that large plane passed through. April Gallup escaped with her injured child through that hole. Her account is freely available on the internet.
My own view is an equation incorporating the average size of the WTC remains and the recorded time the destruction took will answer once and for all this question of outside energy. The 40 acres of debris on the Fresh Kills landfill is a central part of that equation. wtcfamiliesforproperburial have knowledge relating to the 'fines'. The fines are the human and building remains under 1/4 inch which were recovered then bulldozed over the rest of the debris.
Originally posted by psikeyhackr
Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by psikeyhackr
THen how did it collapse? We are pages in so # or get off the pot. What was the outside energy source??? That is the point of the OP. I say no, so there is nothing to prove. They came down. End of story.
Spit it out....
It didn't collapse. It was destroyed. Something destroyed 90 stories of supports. Why doesn't everyone want to know the distributions of steel and concrete in those 90 stories so even the conservation of momentum can be properly analyzed. The potential energy cannot even be properly estimated without that info.
So why can't a collapsing model be built if that is what happened? But where has any engineering school even announced trying? They have only had TEN YEARS!
psik
Originally posted by esdad71
Originally posted by psikeyhackr
Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by psikeyhackr
THen how did it collapse? We are pages in so # or get off the pot. What was the outside energy source??? That is the point of the OP. I say no, so there is nothing to prove. They came down. End of story.
Spit it out....
It didn't collapse. It was destroyed. Something destroyed 90 stories of supports. Why doesn't everyone want to know the distributions of steel and concrete in those 90 stories so even the conservation of momentum can be properly analyzed. The potential energy cannot even be properly estimated without that info.
So why can't a collapsing model be built if that is what happened? But where has any engineering school even announced trying? They have only had TEN YEARS!
psik
What is something?
You can find the distributions. They even showed it on Nat Geo for the Anniversary. I already told you that. Everything had been estimated but you do not believe those that present such information. If that is the case, it is up to you to provide something different but you will not even share the theory on what "SOMETHING" is to cause the collapse.
What destroyed it. This thread cannot move forward until you answer that otherwise you have nothing as well as the OP and it should be closed.
Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by ANOK
So did you figure out yet how sagging trusses can exert an inward force on the columns? Or is that simple concept still confusing you?
Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by psikeyhackr
THen how did it collapse? We are pages in so # or get off the pot. What was the outside energy source???
That is the point of the OP. I say no, so there is nothing to prove. They came down. End of story.
Originally posted by ANOK
Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by psikeyhackr
THen how did it collapse? We are pages in so # or get off the pot. What was the outside energy source???
That's the big question isn't it, what was that outside energy?
No one knows esdad, we can only speculate. But not knowing what it was, doesn't mean we don't what it wasn't.
It's a process of elimination, can fire heat up thousand of tons of steel enough in an hour to cause steel failure? No. Can sagging trusses put a pulling force on columns? No. So we have to assume another energy was acting on the towers to cause the events we see. That is what a new investigation would hopefully discover.
That is the point of the OP. I say no, so there is nothing to prove. They came down. End of story.
Wow what incredible logic you use. You can't explain how it just came down, so the OS must be true?
I can only conclude that lots of people are too emotionally upset about the POSSIBILITY that airliners could not do it because it opens a HUGE CAN OF WORMS that would smell really bad. So accepting the OS and hating Arab terrorists just makes life a lot simpler.
Originally posted by liejunkie01
reply to post by psikeyhackr
I can only conclude that lots of people are too emotionally upset about the POSSIBILITY that airliners could not do it because it opens a HUGE CAN OF WORMS that would smell really bad. So accepting the OS and hating Arab terrorists just makes life a lot simpler.
Here is two pictures.
I can only conclude that people are neglecting the amount of damage an airliner can cause to a vertical structure.
Just look at the damage for a while
Merry Christmas everybody
Originally posted by liejunkie01
Just look at the damage for a while