The Confederate Flag: A Disturbing Trend?

I've noticed a few stars and bars flying around on the river, along with the typical Jolly Rodger. The Jolly Rodger could represent murderous thieves (like Somali pirates) or bead-throwing, Jager and rum drinking boaters just like the Confederate flag could be a racist symbol or simple Southern pride from country folks. Take your pick, but I wouldn't bring up the negative connotations to the person waving either flag. By the way, I've seen them fly both flags too.

You also might want to consider what message you're sending when you raise the stars and stripes, something I stopped doing after 911. Took the pole down too.

reply to post by reeferman


I don't care what it's about.

It has no place flying north of the Mason-Dixon line.

So people that live in the north that had relatives in the past that fought in the civil war
are not allowed to have or display The Confederate Flag?

This goes way beyond racism it is UN-American to deny your past.

When people see racism in a piece of cloth, they need serious mental help.

My ancestors fought and died under that flag, thank you very much.

If you want to know what the Confederate Flag is all about, who do you ask? If you want to know why someone believes in the Bible, would you ask someone who does believe in it, or someone who doesn't? If you want to know how to grow plants, would you ask a farmer, or someone who once drove past a farm? If you want to know how to fix a car, would you ask a mechanic or someone on the street?

So if you really want to know what the Confederate Flag is about, why would you listen to people who are guessing?

First of all, the flag most people know as the Confederate Flag was not the official flag of the Confederacy. It was the battlejack flag, actually the battlejack flag from the Confederate Navy, which was flown under times of war. Of course, since the United States declared war as soon as the Confederacy was founded, the Confederacy was always in a state of war [source].

Secondly, slavery was not a major issue of the Civil War. The issue was unfair taxation and official refusal to listen to grievances the southern states brought against the Federal government. Slavery was a hot-button issue at the time across all the United States, and Lincoln decided (after losing some key battles) to boost support for the war among the Union states by spinning the reason for the war to the slavery debate.

Incidentally, for those who still want to scream the war was about slavery, think about these facts:

• Under the United States, slavery existed for 77 years. Under the Confederacy, slavery existed 4 years.
  
  
• Black slavery in America was an institution created by the northern colonies, primarily Massachusetts and New York. The first slaves in the southeast came there by way of northern slave-traders.
  
  
• There were many black regiments in the Confederate Army, and they fought as hard as their white counterparts.
  
  
• The concept of freeing slaves was gaining popularity in the Southeast well before the war, just as it was in the northern states.
  
  
• General Ulysses S. Grant was a proponent of segregation, and General William Tecumseh Sherman openly despised blacks... to the extent that during his escapade of war crimes, he had his men use physical force to restrain freed slaves from traveling with his hoard, even though his slash-and-burn campaign left them with no food or shelter.

Thirdly, the Confederacy did not declare war; the Union did. The Confederacy simply withdrew from the Union and, as is any nation's right, instructed Federal agents to return to their country.

Fourthly, the separation happened after numerous attempts to resolve the problems internally, and was in response to the failure of the Federal government to uphold its own Constitution. We did not break the agreement; we simply declared it null and void because the Federal government broke it.

Now, if you still want to call the Confederate battlejack flag 'racist', then I suppose that is your right. But unless you want me to call you a hypocrite, you should also call the United States flag racist, the British flag racist, heck, about every flag flown racist. Because slavery was not an America episode; it was in fact global.

I also suggest you cry 'racism!' every time you see someone wearing a 'Malcolm X' insignia, or perhaps every time you hear about an organization that is only for people of a certain skin color, or every time you hear about an event that emphasizes ski color.

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., who I consider one of the great humanitarians of our country, said:

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

Source: www.usconstitution.net...

Yes, Dr. King, you had a dream. You had an amazing, uplifting dream that deserves to be fulfilled. But I am glad I will never be the one to have to tell you that your very followers, those who cheered you on that day in Selma Alabama, are now the oppressors, judging me and mine by nothing more than the place I was born, the color of my skin, and the heritage I hold dear.

TheRedneck

This is a little off topic but think it needs to be stated.

Slavery does not equate racism. Every race has been enslaved at some point in history and sometimes they were enslaved by their own race. The southern slave holders did not care about the color of their slave's skin, they wanted free labor. They used mostly Africans because there was a ready supply since the Africans were capturing their own countrymen and selling them off to the Europeans.

Slavery was not about racism, it was and has always been about power, station and capitalism.

The civil war was not about the south wanting to own black people, it was about the southern states wanting the freedom to own people.

reply to post by xEphon

I'm curious to see if this has been happening in the places you live too. I've noticed this here in PA. I hear many people claim it isn't about racism and frankly that's just BS. The confederate flag always has and always will be about racism.

That's a curious statement because... one can place any meaning on any symbol. So... whether the old battle flag represents racism to those who fly it, is not important. To heck with them... what you think matters.

Originally posted by tankerpilot
Nonsense.

Do a little research willya? The Civil War was NOT about race. It was about states rights. It wasnt until after the emancipation proclaimation that the war became about race and slavery. The confederate flag respresented a group of states that stood up to the federal government. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE. Get over yourself. By playing the race card in every aspect of life you prove only one thing....that you are a rascist!!!!

Oh yes, it was about state's rights.


The "right" of the Southern States to hold slaves. Don't delude yourself. The War was, from the very beginning, about slavery.

Originally posted by xEphon
reply to post by reeferman

 

Ah yes, the freedom excuse. You're right, the confederate flag can be a symbol of the states constitutional right to secede as long as you're willing to take with it all the other attributes that the flag can be But, to sit there and say that it's the symbol of FREEDOM?? That's ludicrous. We have a symbol of freedom and its the AMERICAN flag.

The please explain why Lincoln freed the slaves south of the Mason-Dixon line and not above it........ That is a easily verifyable FACT that has not been re-written. No aplogists needed. Not sure how to link to off site qoutes - but from wikipedia:

On September 22, 1862, Lincoln announced that he would issue a formal emancipation of all slaves in any state of the Confederate States of America that did not return to Union control by January 1, 1863. None did return and the actual order, signed and issued January 1, 1863, took effect except in locations where the Union had already mostly regained control. The Proclamation made abolition a central goal of the war (in addition to reunion), outraged white Southerners who envisioned a race war, angered some Northern Democrats, energized anti-slavery forces, and weakened forces in Europe that wanted to intervene to help the Confederacy.[2]

Total abolition of slavery was finalized by the Thirteenth Amendment which took effect in December 1865.

en.wikipedia.org...

Pretty self explanatory......................................... slaves were free in the south, but not in the north AND areas that were under Union Control................

Originally posted by SG-17

Originally posted by tankerpilot
Nonsense.

Do a little research willya? The Civil War was NOT about race. It was about states rights. It wasnt until after the emancipation proclaimation that the war became about race and slavery. The confederate flag respresented a group of states that stood up to the federal government. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE. Get over yourself. By playing the race card in every aspect of life you prove only one thing....that you are a rascist!!!!

Oh yes, it was about state's rights.


The "right" of the Southern States to hold slaves. Don't delude yourself. The War was, from the very beginning, about slavery.

If I may, over 90 percent of those who fought for the south were dirt poor farmers who had never even seen a slave. These guys were answering the call of their country to defend what they were told was an invasion.

But... it does no good to argue this subject. Those who have rewritten history to their point of view will certainly not change it just because it is wrong.

So... do believe what you will.

reply to post by TheRedneck


So, you're saying, outside the heritage argument, the confederate flag is not a symbol of racism for most people? You're saying the Ku Klux Klan did not adopt the confederate flag as a symbol of opposition to the civil right's movement? I mean, why would they do that if all the flag stood for was the states right to secede?

Even if everything you say is true, you cannot deny the fact that the confederate flag has become a symbol of oppression for many Americans. It was born out of that time period and that's why it was adopted by many white supremacist groups.

Let me ask you. Would you refer to a black person as a 'n-word'? Why not? It originated as a neutral term with no negative connotations. But guess what, over time it turned into one of the most derogatory terms you can use. I would say the confederate flag is the symbolic equivalent.

When I see people flying their confederate flags in Northern PA, I think it's pretty clear why they're doing it. And I bet those same people who hide behind their 'freedom' arguments up North have no problem calling black people 'n-word's either.

The KKK also adopted the cross so with this thinking anyone displaying a cross is racist.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
My ancestors fought and died under that flag, thank you very much.

You are not required to like or respect a flag just because your ancestors fought under it. If this were so, there would still be swastikas flying in Germany, today.

If you want to know what the Confederate Flag is all about, who do you ask? If you want to know why someone believes in the Bible, would you ask someone who does believe in it, or someone who doesn't?

I guess I would ask sociologists, psychologists, and theologians. Then, once I had a general understanding of the place held by the Bible in our culture, and why and how people form religious beliefs, I might ask a few believers.

Secondly, slavery was not a major issue of the Civil War.

The Confederates would have disagreed with you. Don't take my word for it. Read the Confederate acts of secession. Mississippi put it best: "In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course. Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world."

After the war, Southern apologists decided it was all about states' rights this, and states' rights that, and how it was all a big misunderstanding over finer points of trade law. Depends on which deluded Lost Causer you ask. Before the war, it was all about slavery. The attempted secession occurred because of slavery. They were worried the federal government would not expand the slave market into a sufficient number of territories or--gasp, horror!--take their slaves away. So they declared themselves independent, stole a great deal of US government property, and started shooting at the US Army.

The North was, if not exactly driven by abolitionist fervor, certainly aware that slavery was the root of the conflict. The Union Army had a marching song about John Brown, which was later softened to the more religious (but still abolitionist) Battle Hymn of the Republic. Brown's elevation into a martyr by the rank and file is a clear indicator that they, at least, understood the stakes of the war. Lincoln reportedly attributed the war to Harriet Beecher Stowe's novel, Uncle Tom's Cabin. From the lower ranks to the highest office, the United States saw slavery as the origin of the war.

Incidentally, for those who still want to scream the war was about slavery, think about these facts: Under the United States, slavery existed for 77 years. Under the Confederacy, slavery existed 4 years.

Now you're just making yourself look silly. But I'll respond to one more bit of silliness:

There were many black regiments in the Confederate Army, and they fought as hard as their white counterparts.

Untrue.

Amazing how so many people on this board can be offended by a situation that never affected them personally. How many folks on this board who are offended by the Confederate flag had a parent, grand parent or great grand parent who was a slave?

My grandfather and uncle fought in the Pacific during WW2, should I be offended by the Japanese flag? I'm not, because it didn't affect me and I really liked my Atari growing up. Is anyone offended by the Vietnamese flag? North Korean?

Shouldn't those of Jewish heritage be offended by the Crosses on Catholic Churches? Why do we still allow these in public????

I don't believe in Slavery but I have no reason to be offended by the "Stars and Bars" because it never had any affect on myself or those relatives that I knew. The only reason that it's offensive is because you are being told that it's offensive. Just another way to drive a wedge between folks and thus keep control of your lives.

reply to post by xEphon

So, you're saying, outside the heritage argument, the confederate flag is not a symbol of racism for most people?

I am saying that for those around here, the Heart of Dixie, the center of the Confederacy, no, it does not symbolize racism.

It might interest you to learn that the KKK is also a minor irritant here, not nowhere near an accepted part of society. We ignored them out of existence.

Even if everything you say is true, you cannot deny the fact that the confederate flag has become a symbol of oppression for many Americans. It was born out of that time period and that's why it was adopted by many white supremacist groups.

Yes, it was born out of that time period. It was born out of a respect for fairness and adherence to the ideals written in the US Constitution, and I will make no apology for that. The fact that some insignificant buffoons decided they liked it does not alter the facts of what it is intended to stand for, and neither does the fact that people allow a biased version of history to flourish without questioning it.

Westboro Baptist Church can wave Bibles while spreading filth... it does not mean the Bible condones filth. I can pledge allegiance to the US Constitution while promoting communism; it does not follow that the US Constitution promotes communism. A symbol is defined not by those who adopt it, but by those who create it... and people like me created the Confederate Battlejack.

Would you refer to a black person as a...

Not intentionally, because I realized at one point in my life that that particular word was seen as insulting to some. In response I have tried to eradicate it from my vocabulary. I will state, however, that whe this decision was made, it did not have the meaning in my community that it is claimed to have.

I have to make the observation that you have used that particular word in this thread and I have not.

I also question the eradication because it is only allowed to be used today by people who have the right skin color. How exactly is that not racist?

In any case, no one in my ancestry fought and died for the right to use a particular word. The sacrifice in that case is minor to me. However, as I stated earlier, my ancestors did fight and die, and die honorably fighting for what they believed, under the Confederate States of America. That is not a minor sacrifice; it is an all-out assault on my heritage, and I will not stand silent while my culture is attacked and vilified by those who themselves demonstrate the very racism they accuse me of.

If I had the money, I would buy truckloads of Confederate flags and give them away to everyone who wished to fly them. That's what they stand for; that is what their colors mean. Never bow to invaders, never give up, never run from a justified fight.

If that is your definition of racism, then by all means ignore my protests but also inform Webster of the new definition of the word 'racism'.

When I see people flying their confederate flags in Northern PA, I think...

I beg to differ... that is when you don't think. Instead, you react to lies, fabrications, and propaganda. You have somehow convinced yourself that you know the hearts and minds of others better than they themselves do. And that, my friend, is the height of arrogance.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by kinnerarity
The please explain why Lincoln freed the slaves south of the Mason-Dixon line and not above it........

Because Lincoln was not a dictator and had no authority over the institution of slavery where federal law was in force. He was, however, commander-in-chief of the United States armed forces during a war, and had sufficient authority to liberate any person or property held by the enemy. It took a Constitutional amendment to free the slaves in the federally-controlled states, and Lincoln made that amendment a plank in the Republican platform for 1864. Although not required (or effective) by law, he signed it shortly before he was assassinated.

Originally posted by littled16
I live in the South and when I see a Confederate flag flying the first thing I think of is the KKK or the Skinheads. I find it offensive and most people that I know do also. At one point and time it might have represented something else but those times have been long gone in my book.

I live in southern Ohio, and there are many around here who fly the Stars and Bars. My family fought for the Confederacy, in fact my avatar is taken from a photo of my Great, Great Grandfather. When I see the Flag, I salute it. To me it means a fight for American Freedom that was lost to the Corporate Military Complex. The Stars and Bars, as far as I know, was never flown of a battle, although popular art always shows it being flown.
Just because the KKK adopted it, that does not make is a Racist symbol. The KKK adopted Christianity too, why not a cry over that?

Originally posted by FurvusRexCaeli

Originally posted by kinnerarity
The please explain why Lincoln freed the slaves south of the Mason-Dixon line and not above it........

Because Lincoln was not a dictator and had no authority over the institution of slavery where federal law was in force. He was, however, commander-in-chief of the United States armed forces during a war, and had sufficient authority to liberate any person or property held by the enemy. It took a Constitutional amendment to free the slaves in the federally-controlled states, and Lincoln made that amendment a plank in the Republican platform for 1864. Although not required (or effective) by law, he signed it shortly before he was assassinated.

You are entirely right. But if the war was all about slavery..................what kind of a dictator would start a war to force 13 states to dissolve slavery before legally dissolving it for the rest of the nation?? There is a very big truth here that many people refuse to see........................................................... And nothing in this world is more dangerous than an opinion formed without knowledge of the facts. People's opinions of the Civil War and for that matter southern cuture are based on nothing but one of the greatest campaigns of disinformation ever foisted off on us.

reply to post by FurvusRexCaeli

You are not required to like or respect a flag just because your ancestors fought under it.

Neither am I prohibited from doing so. Well, except by the opinion of those who wish to rewrite history.

I guess I would ask sociologists, psychologists, and theologians. Then, once I had a general understanding of the place held by the Bible in our culture, and why and how people form religious beliefs, I might ask a few believers.

So you admit that your opinions are based on a lack of intimate knowledge? Very interesting. I have always found that directly addressing those with knowledge is an easier way to discover truth. Or is it perhaps that you do not believe people know their own thoughts and beliefs?

The Confederates would have disagreed with you. Don't take my word for it.

I won't.

Neither will I take Yale's word. I will take the word of local history, substantiated by handwritten letters preserved form those times and written by citizens of the Confederacy. I will take the word of stories handed down from those who could not write.

None of these things disputes the fact that slavery was one of the issues on which the South felt ignored. But they also emphasize other causes: excessive taxation, attempts to pass laws detrimental to Southern interests, and refusals to listen to complaints. But, of course, you will only believe the reason you want to be the cause. So be it. Enjoy your ignorance.

Now you're just making yourself look silly. But I'll respond to one more bit of silliness:

I guess silliness is in the eyes of the observer. So be it,

The next Civil War will be bloodier than the first. and there will be another one. He who does not learn the lessons of history is doomed to repeat it.

Notice that said 'history', not 'fiction'...

TheRedneck

People don't seem to realize the North had slavery too, and well into the Civil War.
The Confederate Flag has become a hate tool for the left wing and black racist groups like the NAACP, to have something to further oppress whites with, and not allow them to have any stance of their heritage or culture, all while praising other races to do such.

Originally posted by xEphon
reply to post by Misoir

 

Yes, the heritage argument is a valid one. But, being from the North, the people who choose to fly the flag here aren't entitled to that, nor is it likely the real reason they would fly the flag.

Getting back to the OP topic, has anyone seen an increase in confederate flags? Surprisingly, or maybe not, I've seen them increase two fold since Obama became president. Take that for what you will.

edit on 16-9-2011 by xEphon because: (no reason given)

Or maybe they were always there and you are just more aware of them now. Either is just as possible as the other.

/TOA